Why do CFIs discourage midfield crosswind?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by hish747, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Messages:
    495
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cluemeister
    You don't, it's a traffic pattern. You're thinking of the landing pattern. That's in the FAR section 64.342234.98766.21398
     
  2. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,180
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    See edit :rolleyes:
     
  3. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,197
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri


    I hate to quibble, but what I said IS strictly correct. The only time an IFR pilot is responsible for separation with other IFR aircraft is when explicitly advised to maintain visual separation after the pilot has acknowledged having the other aircraft in sight. What you stated applies to separation from VFR aircraft.
     
  4. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,580
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Well that seems to be ambiguous. Probably why the FAA prefers different terminology for airports and airspace.
     
    dmspilot likes this.
  5. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,166
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Different terms like “airport” and “airspace”?:D
     
  6. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,909
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    You keep circling until you are bingo fuel, then you have all the right of way in the world
     
    timwinters likes this.
  7. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,909
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    Check 91.113(b)
    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:2.0.1.3.10#se14.2.91_1113
     
  8. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,180
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    WannFly likes this.
  9. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,197
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    You may want to reread that yourself. It says the pilot is responsible for "avoidance" not "separation". ATC provides IFR separation unless the pilot reports the other aircraft is in sight and ATC temporarily transfers the responsibility. You all might want to check out my tutorial series on IFR at www.AvClicks.com. These situations are covered.
     
  10. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,909
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    Well it does say avoid, doesn’t mention separation. Hmm learned something new today.
     
  11. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,166
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    The words are set are generally chosen for a reason, not randomly picked from a dictionary. ;)
     
  12. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    197
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matt R
    One issue I see is that different pilots and airplanes fly the downwind leg at different distances from the runway centerline. In my 150, I may only be 1/2-1 mile parallel to the runway, while some students training in diamonds could be 2 miles parallel to the runway in a wide pattern.

    Is there guidance in exactly how wide the pattern should be? If not, this brings up a huge issue because you could have three aircraft all enter on downwind at 1/2 mile, 1 mile, and 2 mile parallel to the runway centerline all seeming like they are in a clear pattern with no one ahead of them. They could turn base at different distances too setting up a conflict. Now hopefully the radio calls would clear it up, but that is not a perfect solution.
     
  13. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,197
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    You mean like this (from my forum archives:))?

    Chas.JPG
    I think @EdFred accused me of stealing his lawn sprinkler plan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 12:07 PM
    Eric Stoltz likes this.
  14. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    197
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matt R
    Yep, exactly. Which one of those lines is “correct”? And if none are “correct”, where do you turn to the downwind on a 45 if you know others are in the pattern, but can’t determine how wide a pattern the others are flying? If you turn too late, you cut directly across a plane flying a wide pattern. If you turn too early, you may not be seen by those looking for planes in a narrow pattern.
     
  15. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    3,909
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WannaFly
    I am not good at interpreting things, hence I am single . Why can’t they spell it out?
     
  16. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,197
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    No such thing as "correct". Give way to other traffic and position yourself behind the farthest one from the runway that you give way to, so you can follow it.
     
  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,166
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    We’ve got a generator failure checklist that starts out:
    1. Voltage.....DETERMINE MALFUNCTIONING GENERATOR.

    You’d be amazed at how many pilots can’t figure out which indicator to use in determining which generator is malfunctioning.
     
    WannFly likes this.
  18. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6,347
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Technically, if the NON-TOWERED (take your uncontrolled somewhere else) airport is IMC you do have separation until you call to cancel on the ground, because they will not clear another plane until you've either canceled or had the wreckage cleared.

    If it's VMC you are always expected to see and avoid.
     
  19. G-force

    G-force Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    G-force
    If everybody lands without hitting each other, they all are correct.

    Untill we all are required to fly GPS fenced "highways" in the pattern, it's going to vary. See and avoid is all you can do, you can't rely on radios at places where they are not required.
     
    wilkersk and timwinters like this.