Who's at fault here?

First, what are you doing at 50 feet on takeoff with full flaps? Second, it would be a very dangerous thing to do a rejected takeoff at that point (flaps or no flaps) without a mile or so of runway remaining in front of you. In fact, that's not really an RTO -- you've already taken off!

Sorry -- I was referring to go-arounds. I mis-read your post.

Takeoffs are practiced frequently enough as the student invariably forgets to close the window (it's been hot lately). I'll let him get up to about 40-50 knots and then tell him to abort the takeoff.

After a "What happened?" the lesson sinks in about preflight checks and how to stop on a runway when things go south.

In a complex I teach never to raise the gear until the remaining runway is past. It takes real attention to do a RTO in a HP retractable.
 
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just to clarify, i am always at the airport when i solo a student. but i dont babysit them, i usually get on with my day's schedule. next student or whatever. i have trained them to know what they need to know, they no longer need to babysat. if they have a question for me they can call on the UNICOM. my instructions are typically to do 3 touch and go's unless they dont feel comfortable and then do full stops. and above all, have fun.
 
But I thought the discussion was rejected Takeoffs, not go-arounds. We covered go-arounds, but I don't recall ever actually practicing a RTO. For that matter, I don't recall ever having done one!:hairraise: I need a biennial pretty soon. Maybe I'll add that to the list to cover!

I prefer to practice RTO's one of 3 ways.

1. do a short feild take off. At about 100 to 150 feet simulate a power failure. Be ready you will have to get the nose down in a hurry to have enough energy to flare with when you lose power at Vx.

2. On Approach at about 25 to 50 feet AGL initiate a go around side step to the side like there is another aircraft on the runway. at 100-150 feet simulate the power failure. Again be careful (take you instructor with you to demonstrate) as some aircraft may not have enough energy to turn back to the runway and flare.

3. And of course practice them from any point on a normal takeoff.

Part of my last minute instructions to a student just before solo goes something like this...

"You are the pilot in command I recommend 3 takeoffs and landings but you are the pilot in command if you only want to do one landing that is fine, if you need to do more than 3 T&L's that is fine as well. I will support any decision that you make as long as you can justify that you did it get you and the airplane back safely."

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I prefer to practice RTO's one of 3 ways.

1. do a short feild take off. At about 100 to 150 feet simulate a power failure. Be ready you will have to get the nose down in a hurry to have enough energy to flare with when you lose power at Vx.

2. On Approach at about 25 to 50 feet AGL initiate a go around side step to the side like there is another aircraft on the runway. at 100-150 feet simulate the power failure. Again be careful (take you instructor with you to demonstrate) as some aircraft may not have enough energy to turn back to the runway and flare.

Neither of these fit my definition of a Rejected Take Off.
 
Neither of these fit my definition of a Rejected Take Off.
Not mine, either. And I think those are pretty scary -- I hope you go through them at altitude (like 1500 AGL or so) a few times before trying them at 150 AGL. I also hope you have a ton of runway in front of you when you do it.
 
Neither of these fit my definition of a Rejected Take Off.
Mine either, but I'm thinking that you and I have a little different perspective than other people on the rejected takeoff issue...
 
Student as PIC. Toed-ja. CFI was still an idiot, but a not-responsible idiot.
 
Student as PIC. Toed-ja. CFI was still an idiot, but a not-responsible idiot.
I don't think the FSDO will agree with you -- I think they'll say that both the Student/PIC and the CFI were responsible for this one. Remember, authority may be delegated, but responsibility may only be shared.
 
Mine either, but I'm thinking that you and I have a little different perspective than other people on the rejected takeoff issue...
Well, I'm with you, Greg, and Ron. Those aren't RTOs. They are, however, important things to consider. It's basically an engine failure on takeoff, so you're landing pretty much straight ahead at those altitudes. Land on the grass, over run, whatever. Just fly it to the ground.
 
Only practiced RTOs during my comm/multi training. It's DEFINITELY an attention-getter in a twin. Can't recall ever doing it for my PPL.
 
Well yes, but the CFI was a HUGE contributing factor, noted in the report or not.

Also, I think since the NTSB doesn't have a recording of the CTAF, that sort of thing generally won't make the report. Then there's the not-sure witness problem - On this accident there was someone who said they were "99% positive" that the engine failed during the guy's runup too, but since it wasn't 100% it didn't make the report.
 
While I was not taught RTO in the same vein as short field, et al., we did do one rather sloppily RTO during my primary due to a suddenly open panel on the cowl. It's really a calm thing with 4000' of runway ahead.

Luckily, only on RTO (post-rolling) since private due to wildlife walking infront of me one night.
 
Well, I'm still a student (hopefully for not much longer, since we're into checkride prep) and I've never been trained to do an RTO. I've also not seen one demonstrated.

It's frustrating, sometimes, to hear people discuss things that they think are clearly important in a PPL curriculum and then realize that I've never been introduced to the subject at all. But, when it happens, I find out everything I can on the subject and then ask my CFI for dual training.

With that in mind, what's the best procedure for an RTO in a light single?

I have to admit that I probably would have been pulling the power, too, and using brakes judiciously -- maximum braking possible while maintaining directional control on the runway. If I thought I was in danger of going off the end of the runway, I'd be pulling the mixture, turning off the mags and the master switch and switching the fuel to off, in about that order. Those are the things I can think of right now without looking it up which means that's probably what I'd do in the cockpit. What's the real recommended procedure?

Thanks!
 
With that in mind, what's the best procedure for an RTO in a light single?

I have to admit that I probably would have been pulling the power, too, and using brakes judiciously -- maximum braking possible while maintaining directional control on the runway. If I thought I was in danger of going off the end of the runway, I'd be pulling the mixture, turning off the mags and the master switch and switching the fuel to off, in about that order. Those are the things I can think of right now without looking it up which means that's probably what I'd do in the cockpit. What's the real recommended procedure?

Thanks!
That's a pretty fair guess, although it would probably behoove you to look it up AHEAD OF TIME and learn the proper procedure for your airplane (if it exists in writing) so that you're not "winging it" when the time comes.;)
Only practiced RTOs during my comm/multi training. It's DEFINITELY an attention-getter in a twin. Can't recall ever doing it for my PPL.
Likewise...and although I did teach them to a degree when I was doing primary training, I'd teach them far more thoroughly now. And that "thoroughly" would include the student chasing down some documentation...takeoff rpm minimums, various other "howgozit" points on the takeoff, stuff like that. Not just giving an abort command, or simulating traffic or a deer on the runway.

Fly safe!

David
 
...or at least taught the student how to do a proper rejected takeoff.
And, BTW, how many of you instructors give their students a few RTO's, and how many of the rest of you have been given that maneuver in training?

I do teach rejected takeoffs and I also teach simulated low power or high DA takeoffs.

But, I also teach to use minimum braking. Unless the end of the runway is right on top of ya, use aerodynamic braking. That alone at full-idle will do a lot. I guide students to use aerodynamic braking and slowly transition to toe brakes. And, at no point should the wheels lock or even stop turning. I'm amazed at how many students (certificated pilots as well) I see spinning the plane on one tire. Just a few times on the same spot... the result will be noticed on one of the hard landings you make.

I prefer to practice RTO's one of 3 ways.

1. do a short feild take off. At about 100 to 150 feet simulate a power failure. Be ready you will have to get the nose down in a hurry to have enough energy to flare with when you lose power at Vx.

2. On Approach at about 25 to 50 feet AGL initiate a go around side step to the side like there is another aircraft on the runway. at 100-150 feet simulate the power failure. Again be careful (take you instructor with you to demonstrate) as some aircraft may not have enough energy to turn back to the runway and flare.

3. And of course practice them from any point on a normal takeoff.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Well, I'm still a student (hopefully for not much longer, since we're into checkride prep) and I've never been trained to do an RTO. I've also not seen one demonstrated.

It's frustrating, sometimes, to hear people discuss things that they think are clearly important in a PPL curriculum and then realize that I've never been introduced to the subject at all. But, when it happens, I find out everything I can on the subject and then ask my CFI for dual training.

With that in mind, what's the best procedure for an RTO in a light single?

I have to admit that I probably would have been pulling the power, too, and using brakes judiciously -- maximum braking possible while maintaining directional control on the runway. If I thought I was in danger of going off the end of the runway, I'd be pulling the mixture, turning off the mags and the master switch and switching the fuel to off, in about that order. Those are the things I can think of right now without looking it up which means that's probably what I'd do in the cockpit. What's the real recommended procedure?

Thanks!

That's a pretty fair guess, although it would probably behoove you to look it up AHEAD OF TIME and learn the proper procedure for your airplane (if it exists in writing) so that you're not "winging it" when the time comes.;)

Likewise...and although I did teach them to a degree when I was doing primary training, I'd teach them far more thoroughly now. And that "thoroughly" would include the student chasing down some documentation...takeoff rpm minimums, various other "howgozit" points on the takeoff, stuff like that. Not just giving an abort command, or simulating traffic or a deer on the runway.

Fly safe!

David
I think this deserves a thread of its own.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=345983#post345983
 
That's a pretty fair guess, although it would probably behoove you to look it up AHEAD OF TIME and learn the proper procedure for your airplane (if it exists in writing) so that you're not "winging it" when the time comes.;)

Fly safe!

David

My POH says:

(1) Throttle -- IDLE
(2) Brakes -- APPLY
(3) Wing Flaps -- RETRACT
(4) Mixture -- IDLE CUT-OFF
(5) Ignition Switch -- OFF

That's all they say. It's good to know my gut reaction was close. But it's good to be reminded to retract the flaps for maximum braking.
 
My POH says:

(1) Throttle -- IDLE
(2) Brakes -- APPLY
(3) Wing Flaps -- RETRACT
(4) Mixture -- IDLE CUT-OFF
(5) Ignition Switch -- OFF

That's all they say. It's good to know my gut reaction was close. But it's good to be reminded to retract the flaps for maximum braking.
I'd probably pull full back on the yoke too. Should put more weight on the mains to improve braking, and could give slightly better clearance if I did overrun the end.
 
With that in mind, what's the best procedure for an RTO in a light single?

1. Power to idle.
2. Brake as necessary.

Then, depending on the nature of the reason the takeoff was rejected, either...

3. Run post-landing checklist after exiting the runway, or...

3. Run proper emergency checklist if needed.
4. Secure the airplane (Fuel selector, mixture, mags, master, etc).
5. Run away!
 
I'd probably pull full back on the yoke too. Should put more weight on the mains to improve braking, and could give slightly better clearance if I did overrun the end.
Depending on speed, that might also launch you into the air. And that's the sort of thing you can only learn to do right by trying it.
 
Who was in charge of the plane here??...the student. This my not have been taught very well or not at all but when you solo, your are a PIC...that means your in charge of you and your aircraft. I still think that the CFI is a total jerk and if the student gets back up in the air again (which I hope he does)....it will be clear to him that this certain CFI don't understand the stresses of student pilots. It should have been a cool time for the student that he will remember for the rest of his life but the CFI ruined it.
 
To answer Ron's question, I was taught ROTs. But it didn't start until after I decided to make a go around on a botched approach. I called a go around, my CFI said he was extremely happy to hear me say that. I was so pleased with myself because at the time we hadn't even discussed what to do in that case.

It surprises me that any CFI would release a student for solo flight without knowing about and practicing, in advance, RTO's, go-arounds, and basic emergency proceedures, including engine failures, best glide, etc.

Does the FAA publish specific minimum pre-solo knowledge requirements standards that the CFI must teach the student prior to solo flight?
 
Does the FAA publish specific minimum pre-solo knowledge requirements standards that the CFI must teach the student prior to solo flight?

Yep:


Federal Aviation Regulation


Sec. 61.87

Part 61 CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS​
Subpart C--Student Pilots

Sec. 61.87

Solo requirements for student pilots.

(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term "solo flight" as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of--
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student's authorized instructor must--
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.
(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:
(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane [rating or privileges] must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.
 
1. Power to idle.
2. Brake as necessary.

And number one comes before number two for a REASON... knowing that reason will make sure you do it in that order, even when it may not be obviously required.

If you have a sudden engine failure, it may be tempting to just brake to a gentle stop. If the engine malfunction was intermediate for some reason, and you still had the engine at full takeoff power, you could have your hands full (or somebody might be be killed) if the engine restarted as suddenly as it stopped.

My RTO checklist thus includes Power to Idle, brake as necessary and mags off at the same time. Get stopped and clear (as soon as possible), then diagnose.
 
My RTO checklist thus includes Power to Idle, brake as necessary and mags off at the same time. Get stopped and clear (as soon as possible), then diagnose.

Wouldn't you want to go mixture before mags if you're gonna kill the engine?
 
Hey, you guys can think whatever you want, it's a free country. I disagree with the feds all the time, but my disagreeing with them doesn't make me right. The NTSB has spoken, so let it be written, so let it be done.
 
I suspect the majority of RTO's have nothing to do with actual engine failures.
 
I suspect the majority of RTO's have nothing to do with actual engine failures.
More often than not, the possible cause is a runway incursion or an aircraft attempting to land from the opposite direction with no warning or radio calls.

With stalls, I describe scenarios where the pilot would get distracted, lose track of airspeed and subsequently pitch. Soon after, there's a stall on approach or on climbout.
 
...I describe scenarios where the pilot would get distracted, lose track of airspeed and subsequently pitch. Soon after, there's a stall on approach or on climbout.

Maybe you shouldn't talk about that stuff if your words lead to approach or departure stalls. :D
 
Wouldn't you want to go mixture before mags if you're gonna kill the engine?

I think that killing the mags will stop an engine quicker than the mixture, especially if the throttle is not wide open. OTOH, the mixture control is usually handier (in the vicinity of the throttle hand).
 
My RTO checklist thus includes Power to Idle, brake as necessary and mags off at the same time. Get stopped and clear (as soon as possible), then diagnose.
Mine is similar, however, it's pull power, mixture, prop all at the same time, brake, and master off. Then mags if I have time.

I think that killing the mags will stop an engine quicker than the mixture, especially if the throttle is not wide open. OTOH, the mixture control is usually handier (in the vicinity of the throttle hand).
Good point. I guess it depends on your engine setup. Mine (FI) will quit within less than half a second if I pull the mixture, even at idle.

-Felix
 
I don't remember practicing them, but I got to do one for real while working on my Private. Tire went flat on a touch and go. I felt it starting to drag, pulled the power. CFI asked what was up, I told him to look out his window.

If it weren't for that dang tire, I would have soloed that day. As it was, I had to wait two more weeks until I was home again. :(

I've had a flat tire. Rejected the takeoff, too. I've also done it when the power wasn't right due to a fouled plug...on our 2500 foot runway... and made the first turn off...Bruce was there.

I don't have to practice rejecting take offs on a touch and go because I've never done a touch and go, ever. They're not allowed at home. The only one I've ever seen was done by my first CFI around hour 1 or 2.
 
This kinda hits close to home for me because I freaking did my first solo at UNI. I even did my instrument checkride in the plane that had crashed (N230U).

My first solo even went almost EXACTLY like how this situation panned out. After I did my first landing, I put the flaps up, added power, and did a touch and go. Before the flight, my instructor told me I was to do stop and go's, as that was the Ohio University policy, but I guess it just didn't register. When you're on your first solo, you have a lot of things on your mind. Probably 90% of my landings at that time were t&g's. The only time I ever did a full stop landing was the last flight of the day.

After that first touch and go, my instructor came on the radio when I was on downwind and told me to do a full stop on the next one. After I got back to the training building my instructor told me that as soon as he saw the flaps go up, he quickly keyed up the mic to shout "NO NO NO NO DO NOT DO A TOUCH AND GO FULL STOP!! FULL STOP!!" but the handheld was in "monitor" mode so the transmission didn't go through.

I don't know, had that transmission went through, what would I have done? Would I have ignored it and went on anyway? Would I have slammed the brakes and lost control? I think what I would have done depends on what kind of personality the instructor had. My first instructor was a very authoritarian type person who would have scared my freshman-in-college-ass and its very possible I may have done something stupid out of intimidation. This flight was with my second instructor, who was a much more mellow guy, and I don't think I would have been intimidated by his yelling on the radio, so I don't think anything bad would have happened.
 
This kinda hits close to home for me because I freaking did my first solo at UNI. I even did my instrument checkride in the plane that had crashed (N230U).

My first solo even went almost EXACTLY like how this situation panned out. After I did my first landing, I put the flaps up, added power, and did a touch and go. Before the flight, my instructor told me I was to do stop and go's, as that was the Ohio University policy, but I guess it just didn't register. When you're on your first solo, you have a lot of things on your mind. Probably 90% of my landings at that time were t&g's. The only time I ever did a full stop landing was the last flight of the day.

After that first touch and go, my instructor came on the radio when I was on downwind and told me to do a full stop on the next one. After I got back to the training building my instructor told me that as soon as he saw the flaps go up, he quickly keyed up the mic to shout "NO NO NO NO DO NOT DO A TOUCH AND GO FULL STOP!! FULL STOP!!" but the handheld was in "monitor" mode so the transmission didn't go through.

I don't know, had that transmission went through, what would I have done? Would I have ignored it and went on anyway? Would I have slammed the brakes and lost control? I think what I would have done depends on what kind of personality the instructor had. My first instructor was a very authoritarian type person who would have scared my freshman-in-college-ass and its very possible I may have done something stupid out of intimidation. This flight was with my second instructor, who was a much more mellow guy, and I don't think I would have been intimidated by his yelling on the radio, so I don't think anything bad would have happened.
Sounds like the teaching staff at UNI ought to re-think their policy. Teach what is expected - seems like it would be a good policy to me.
 
I think that killing the mags will stop an engine quicker than the mixture, especially if the throttle is not wide open. OTOH, the mixture control is usually handier (in the vicinity of the throttle hand).

I was also thinking that I'd like any fuel that's going into the engine to be burned in the engine rather than pouring out the carb after shutdown.
 
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