Who wants a cheap Bo??

If you do get it, I'm sure your first interwebz stop will be Beechtalk.com. Also, join American Bonanza Society.
 
Bad news, the title search came back yesterday showing a lien which was secured in 1980 but there are not remarks showing it was paid off. I called the bank and they have no record of the lien whatsoever, which is strange because even if it was paid off, they should have record of it. There's just no way I can trust missing information like that so hopefully someone else it willing to take the chance on it because it really was quite clean for the circumstances.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
Bad news, the title search came back yesterday showing a lien which was secured in 1980 but there are not remarks showing it was paid off. I called the bank and they have no record of the lien whatsoever, which is strange because even if it was paid off, they should have record of it. There's just no way I can trust missing information like that so hopefully someone else it willing to take the chance on it because it really was quite clean for the circumstances.
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If you really want it, get the bank to sign off saying the lien is released and file the paperwork. they shouldnt have a problem if they dont have any records saying they are owed money.

there are lots of stories around of planes having mechanics liens, loans, FBO liens, etc that are found decades later. many cases the companies involved are long gone. Yet somehow people get them cleared.
 
If the bank has no record of a lien at all, what are the chances they would produce a statement saying the lien is released? I would think the best hope would be "no record of said lien with us"? Would that be enough to continue pursuit of this purchase?
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
Bad news, the title search came back yesterday showing a lien which was secured in 1980 but there are not remarks showing it was paid off. I called the bank and they have no record of the lien whatsoever, which is strange because even if it was paid off, they should have record of it. There's just no way I can trust missing information like that so hopefully someone else it willing to take the chance on it because it really was quite clean for the circumstances.
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Don't let that stop you. Assuming the bank is still in business, ask them to sign of the lien. They aren't going to collect on a 36 year old lien.
 
Here's the problem: they don't have record of the account at all. After 36 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just lost in paperwork somewhere. I did not ask them to sign off on the loan but based on my experience in consumer lending, I don't foresee a lender proclaiming a loan satisfied which was not financed by them. Even if they did, my biggest fear would be that they sold the loan to a collections agency or another lender, so the loan my still be out there.

There's not much lost here, anyway. It's just an airplane. There will be others. :)
 
gkainz said:
If the bank has no record of a lien at all, what are the chances they would produce a statement saying the lien is released? I would think the best hope would be "no record of said lien with us"? Would that be enough to continue pursuit of this purchase?
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First question is how much is/was the lien for? If you buy with the lien in place, the worst case is you have to pay off the lender if he ever shows up with the right paper. Now think of how you will eventually sell the plane with the lien still on it.

Find a way to buy the lien, or some other way to extinguish it. Make the bank a lowball offer.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
There's not much lost here, anyway. It's just an airplane. There will be others. :)
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ITS NOT JUST AN AIRPLANE, it's a salvageable classic that needs to be saved!

I don't have the means to do so, but I would love to.

Too many airplanes are rotting away because nobody will take a chance on them.

But, from a logic and financial standpoint, I understand your reasoning.
 
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RalphInCA said:
ITS NOT JUST AN AIRPLANE, it's a salvageable classic that needs to be saved!

I don't have the means to do so, but I would love to.

Too many airplanes are rotting away because nobody take a chance on them.

But, from a logic and finanial standpoint, I understand your reasoning.
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It sounds like he has another buyer up his sleeve coming out next week anyway so I'm sure it'll see the skies again. She will survive!
 
ChemGuy said:
there are lots of stories around of planes having mechanics liens, loans, FBO liens, etc that are found decades later. many cases the companies involved are long gone. Yet somehow people get them cleared.
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Some people just ignore them too. I wouldn't necessarily advocate that avenue but I know of a few guys who own airplanes that have really old liens on them by long gone banks or an improperly executed ownership transfer from 30 or 40 years ago. In either case I seriously doubt anyone is going to come after the owner to collect payment or claim the airplane but it is possible that someone could.
 
Follow the first guys advice on getting the lien cleared. Simply go to the bank and ask them to put it writing. If they won't then I would pass on it as well.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
Bad news, the title search came back yesterday showing a lien which was secured in 1980 but there are not remarks showing it was paid off. I called the bank and they have no record of the lien whatsoever, which is strange because even if it was paid off, they should have record of it. There's just no way I can trust missing information like that so hopefully someone else it willing to take the chance on it because it really was quite clean for the circumstances.
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Inform the bank that per federal regulation 14 CFR 49.17(d)(5):

(5) Immediately after a debt secured by a conveyance given for security purposes has been satisfied, or any of the encumbered aircraft have been released from the conveyance, the holder shall execute a release on AC Form 8050-41, Part II—Release, provided to him by the FAA when the conveyance was recorded by the FAA, or its equivalent, and shall send it to the FAA Aircraft Registry for recording. If the debt is secured by more than one aircraft and all of the collateral is released, the collateral need not be described in detail in the release. However, the original conveyance must be clearly described in enough detail to identify it, including its date, the names of the parties, the date of FAA recording, and the recorded conveyance number.

Tell them that if they do not send the form to registry to release the lien then they need to offer proof that the lien is still in effect and provide the amount required to satisfy the debt. Obtain a copy of the lien (registry should have it) and send it to the bank to assist them with their efforts.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Inform the bank that per federal regulation 14 CFR 49.17(d)(5):

(5) Immediately after a debt secured by a conveyance given for security purposes has been satisfied, or any of the encumbered aircraft have been released from the conveyance, the holder shall execute a release on AC Form 8050-41, Part II—Release, provided to him by the FAA when the conveyance was recorded by the FAA, or its equivalent, and shall send it to the FAA Aircraft Registry for recording. If the debt is secured by more than one aircraft and all of the collateral is released, the collateral need not be described in detail in the release. However, the original conveyance must be clearly described in enough detail to identify it, including its date, the names of the parties, the date of FAA recording, and the recorded conveyance number.

Tell them that if they do not send the form to registry to release the lien then they need to offer proof that the lien is still in effect and provide the amount required to satisfy the debt. Obtain a copy of the lien (registry should have it) and send it to the bank to assist them with their efforts.
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It's not their lien, that's the problem. It shows on the title search as theirs but they have no record of it and I'm just not convinced they would put their neck out to call it satisfied when it could still be in the hands of another lender or collections agency.

The fact of the matter is, I wasn't going to pay more that $4k for this airplane. If I did go through with it, I would have had to drive at least 10 hours to get down to it to spend who knows how many hours taking the wings and possibly tail off, then another 10+ hours driving back. I have no problem sparing myself that hassle along with the headache of dealing with the bank and FAA on this one. If ya'll want to try your luck at fixing her up, please do, PM me and I'll send you all the pictures I took of it.
 
Sorry, that's now how aircraft Liens work. If another entity now owns it, it is incumbent on them to record it properly with the FAA. If the lender doesn't believe they have a lien, they need to release it.
 
RalphInCA said:
ITS NOT JUST AN AIRPLANE, it's a salvageable classic that needs to be saved!

I don't have the means to do so, but I would love to.

Too many airplanes are rotting away because nobody will take a chance on them.

But, from a logic and financial standpoint, I understand your reasoning.
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Ohhhh yes it IS just an airplane and an old airplane to boot. No bonanza is inexpensive and this one will be a song without end to get it in decent shape. Lotsa bucks. Never let emotion cloud your eyes when it comes to cars,planes, etc. it's a good way to lose your Azz! ( unless of course it's someone else's money, like dads.) in addition it does not have said clear title. Move on!
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
It's not their lien, that's the problem. It shows on the title search as theirs but they have no record of it and I'm just not convinced they would put their neck out to call it satisfied when it could still be in the hands of another lender or collections agency.

The fact of the matter is, I wasn't going to pay more that $4k for this airplane. If I did go through with it, I would have had to drive at least 10 hours to get down to it to spend who knows how many hours taking the wings and possibly tail off, then another 10+ hours driving back. I have no problem sparing myself that hassle along with the headache of dealing with the bank and FAA on this one. If ya'll want to try your luck at fixing her up, please do, PM me and I'll send you all the pictures I took of it.
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Oh, I have no interest in the aircraft. I was just trying to offer a wee bit of a suggestion on what you could do in regards to the lien if you still had an interest. It does amaze me that a person would possibly be willing to spend countless hours to repair or rebuild an airplane and spend a bunch of money doing so but balks at the idea of spending just a couple of hours getting a lien straightened out.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Oh, I have no interest in the aircraft. I was just trying to offer a wee bit of a suggestion on what you could do in regards to the lien if you still had an interest. It does amaze me that a person would possibly be willing to spend countless hours to repair or rebuild an airplane and spend a bunch of money doing so but balks at the idea of spending just a couple of hours getting a lien straightened out.
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Working on airplanes with my dad = a fun learning experience.
Talking to a bank who has no vested interest in helping me = a pain in the ass.

If this was a DC-3 or a T-6, I'd do absolutely anything to get that plane in my hands; however, when it comes to an unairworthy F35 Bonanza... eh- not worth it.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Ohhhh yes it IS just an airplane and an old airplane to boot. No bonanza is inexpensive and this one will be a song without end to get it in decent shape. Lotsa bucks. Never let emotion cloud your eyes when it comes to cars,planes, etc. it's a good way to lose your Azz! ( unless of course it's someone else's money, like dads.) in addition it does not have said clear title. Move on!
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I'm sure glad not everyone agrees with this thinking. Else we would not have as many cool old airplanes, cars and bikes to look at at car shows, air shows and bike shows. In addition, the supply of flyable GA airplanes is limited and the more that deteriorate to dust, the fewer there are in the fleet.

Not all decisions should be reduced to cold, hard logic. There is a place in aviation for emotion.

When it comes right down to it, much of why many of us do aviation is not logical. We do it because we want to -- we get (sometimes hard to explain and quantify) pleasure from it.
 
An F35 is hardly unique. If you want a F35, you likely can find a more economcial approach to one. As I said, this one is going to have serious problems. The carb is likely trash, the prop is likely unairworthy, even if you do the obligatory inspections.
 
Absolutely. There are two of these nearby at small airports. Nothing to grow misty eyed about. Each has sat for years and are better off as beer cans. Something esoteric ? Sure if you have the money and time.
 
rachelk.tailwinds said:
Here's the problem: they don't have record of the account at all. After 36 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just lost in paperwork somewhere. I did not ask them to sign off on the loan but based on my experience in consumer lending, I don't foresee a lender proclaiming a loan satisfied which was not financed by them. Even if they did, my biggest fear would be that they sold the loan to a collections agency or another lender, so the loan my still be out there.

There's not much lost here, anyway. It's just an airplane. There will be others. :)
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This is where $200 to a title company comes in handy. We ran in to that same issue... the buyer footed the bill for a title company to resolve it... in a week they had paperwork on the way to OKC releasing the lien. If it's worth the money for the airplane, the title company is a cheap way to make things right with the world.
 
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