Who gets the strip?

Jim K

Jim K

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Leaving an airport that's near a center boundary and getting clearance in the air....

Obviously the facility your initial fix is in gets your strip. What about the next facility? If you're already in their airspace when you call, will they have your strip and be expecting you?

How about subsequent facilities? Any facility you file a fix in their airspace? Or does each one have to manually send you along?

I've heard AG & RH (opposing bases podcast) talk about getting strips for planes that are departing a neighboring airspace and heading away from them.
 
Jim K said:
Leaving an airport that's near a center boundary and getting clearance in the air....

Obviously the facility your initial fix is in gets your strip. What about the next facility? If you're already in their airspace when you call, will they have your strip and be expecting you?

How about subsequent facilities? Any facility you file a fix in their airspace? Or does each one have to manually send you along?

I've heard AG & RH (opposing bases podcast) talk about getting strips for planes that are departing a neighboring airspace and heading away from them.
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Only the Center in whose airspace the first element of the Flight Plan is, be it airport or fix, gets the ‘proposal’ strip. After you call to get the Clearance and the Flight Plan gets activated, ‘enroute’ strips should be generated automatically for subsequent facilities, this includes Approach Controls. Things can get a little complicated near Center boundaries. All Approach Controls are subordinate to a Center for Flight Plan Processing. Things are not always as they may seem. There is what is called Center Surface Boundaries. These boundaries are used for processing Flight Plan Proposals. They differ from the boundaries you see on Charts. They will contain an Approach Control that spans multiple Centers basic airspace. Here’s an example in your neighborhood. White is the basic Center boundary, Purple is the surface boundary. Basic is just my word. May be some more official word for it. Do you have a link to that podcast. I’d like to listen to it.

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luvflyin said:
Do you have a link to that podcast. I’d like to listen to it.
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It was a pretty short discussion in either their last podcast or the one preceding it. One was castigating the other for discarding strips. I'm not familiar with their tracon, but something about an uncontrolled field that they get strips for, but planes never (or rarely, hence the discussion) call "triad" for the clearance. I'll have to go back and listen to it again to see if it makes more sense now. I think it was 201: "cloud police and bird murder", but I'm not 100% sure. https://www.opposingbases.com/

So how about if you're filling from an airport that a tracon controls? I assume the tracon gets the strip... how about the overlying center?
 
Jim K said:
It was a pretty short discussion in either their last podcast or the one preceding it. One was castigating the other for discarding strips. I'm not familiar with their tracon, but something about an uncontrolled field that they get strips for, but planes never (or rarely, hence the discussion) call "triad" for the clearance. I'll have to go back and listen to it again to see if it makes more sense now. I think it was 201: "cloud police and bird murder", but I'm not 100% sure. https://www.opposingbases.com/

So how about if you're filling from an airport that a tracon controls? I assume the tracon gets the strip... how about the overlying center?
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TRACON gets the strip. Whether the ‘proposal strip’ gets delivered to the individual Center Controllers position above, I can’t say for sure. Once the flight is activated, the overlying Center Sector maybe or maybe not would get an ‘enroute strip.’ Altitude would come into play here. This guy has more recent Center experience than me. @PastZTL , care to chime in here?
 
Okay so it sounds like multiple proposed strips aren't a thing and I need to be careful to file my initial fix in the airspace I expect to request my clearance in.

Perhaps what the podcast guys were referring to was automatically generated enroute strips that they really didn't need.

Could I file multiple plans with different initial fixes or would that confuse the computer?
 
I don't know about Center but "border" TRACONs get duplicate strips. My home base is on the border of two TRACONs. So much so that the IAP from the north is controlled by a different TRACON than the approaches from the south. On the ground, I call the published one for my clearance. To pick up in the air I call either based on my direction of travel.
Jim K said:
Okay so it sounds like multiple proposed strips aren't a thing and I need to be careful to file my initial fix in the airspace I expect to request my clearance in.
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I'd inquire a little further. AG & RH were specifically talking about TRACON. What they said may or may not apply to Center. If I didn't know, I would contact the Center where it was filed. If I flew out of communication range of the Center where it was filed, I wouldn't hesitate to call the Center (or TRACON if appropriate] I was in. It's all one system. It's not that structured. It's not like Indy Center and KC Center are separate companies with competitive trade secrets. They talk to each other on the landline and hand aircraft over to each other all the time. It's not going to be a big deal for a Center to pull the information. I'd just tell them I was picking up IFR from [KDEP] TO [KARR]. I wouldn't bother to file a VOR as my departure point.
 
Jim K said:
Okay so it sounds like multiple proposed strips aren't a thing and I need to be careful to file my initial fix in the airspace I expect to request my clearance in.

Perhaps what the podcast guys were referring to was automatically generated enroute strips that they really didn't need.

Could I file multiple plans with different initial fixes or would that confuse the computer?
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There’s no problem with filing multiple Flight Plans that I know of. By initial fix do you mean the ‘departure point’ be it an airport or fix? Or what is commonly called ‘first fix’. Like KABC AEIOU V## etc., AEIOU being the first fix. if you file multiple plans, in the same time frame, from points in close proximity it can get confusing. Not so much to the Computer as to a Controller. If you think you are flying Plan A, and the Controller thinks you are on Plan B it can get weird. I would not accept Cleared as Filed if you do this. Demand a Full Route Clearance.
 
luvflyin said:
There’s no problem with filing multiple Flight Plans that I know of. .
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Other than confusion at the ATC end and a conversation about which flight plan you want to fly?

"Cleared "as filed." Huh?

Why do I want to set myself up for a full route clearance if I don't have to?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't know about Center but "border" TRACONs get duplicate strips. My home base is on the border of two TRACONs. So much so that the IAP from the north is controlled by a different TRACON than the approaches from the south. On the ground, I call the published one for my clearance. To pick up in the air I call either based on my direction of travel.

I'd inquire a little further. AG & RH were specifically talking about TRACON. What they said may or may not apply to Center. If I didn't know, I would contact the Center where it was filed. If I flew out of communication range of the Center where it was filed, I wouldn't hesitate to call the Center (or TRACON if appropriate] I was in. It's all one system. It's not that structured. It's not like Indy Center and KC Center are separate companies with competitive trade secrets. They talk to each other on the landline and hand aircraft over to each other all the time. It's not going to be a big deal for a Center to pull the information. I'd just tell them I was picking up IFR from [KDEP] TO [KARR]. I wouldn't bother to file a VOR as my departure point.
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What is your home base?
 
My favorite Center story involves a pop-up. It's about how the system coordinates. I was returning from the Colorado western slope to the Denver area. Severe clear in the mountains but as I approached Rollins pass, I could pick up ATIS (years before FIS-B) at my home base and hear that the Denver area was socked in. I knew there was no way to get a pop-up from TRACON; they'd be waaay too busy. So holing west of the pass, I called Center and asked them if they could arrange a clearance for me. "We'll wee what we can do."

A few minutes later, "Proceed direct BJC VOR. Maintain VFR at or above [altitude]. When over BJC, contact Denver Approach on [freq]. They'll have your clearance ready for you."

They did and it was an uneventful flight the rest of the way.
 
90% of my flight plans are direct destination. What I was thinking of was just picking a point a little further down the line in the next atc airspace. It's be the same flight path, just a different "starting" point.

I've had occasions where I'd like to go vfr, but am unsure if I'll be able to, and it would be nice to have a flight plan standing by. I never fly legs more than about 3 hours, so it'd be unusual to cross more then 2 center boundaries.

midlifeflyer said:
I almost sent them feedback saying how thrilled I was to get them fighting with my question :D
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Do you remember which episode it was?
 
luvflyin said:
What is your home base?
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KTTA. No, if you look at the charts, you won't see different facilities for the approaches from the norths and south. It's not on the chart. It just is.

If you didn't hear my OB comment, it was about the time I called FAY after takeoff southbound. I called them with my position - didn't even mention I ws looking for an IFR clearance. They just gave me a squawk code, identified me, and said, "cleared to..."
 
Jim K said:
90% of my flight plans are direct destination. What I was thinking of was just picking a point a little further down the line in the next atc airspace. It's be the same flight path, just a different "starting" point.

I've had occasions where I'd like to go vfr, but am unsure if I'll be able to, and it would be nice to have a flight plan standing by. I never fly legs more than about 3 hours, so it'd be unusual to cross more then 2 center boundaries.


Do you remember which episode it was?
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I think it's last weeks'. The one after the live show at my home base.
 
Ahhh
Tta
Taco truck airport
It all comes together....lol
 
midlifeflyer said:
KTTA. No, if you look at the charts, you won't see different facilities for the approaches from the norths and south. It's not on the chart. It just is.

If you didn't hear my OB comment, it was about the time I called FAY after takeoff southbound. I called them with my position - didn't even mention I ws looking for an IFR clearance. They just gave me a squawk code, identified me, and said, "cleared to..."
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I haven’t listened to the Podcast yet. Yeah, that’s not that rare about Approaches from different directions to an airport near the border of two facilities. Just one frequency on all the Approach Charts. Sometimes it’s not two Approach Controls involved but a Center and an Approach. Or two Centers
 
Jim K said:
90% of my flight plans are direct destination. What I was thinking of was just picking a point a little further down the line in the next atc airspace. It's be the same flight path, just a different "starting" point.

I've had occasions where I'd like to go vfr, but am unsure if I'll be able to, and it would be nice to have a flight plan standing by. I never fly legs more than about 3 hours, so it'd be unusual to cross more then 2 center boundaries.


Do you remember which episode it was?
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Yeah. Really wouldn’t be a problem with ‘Route’ in that situation. I’m curious. Give an example of two Flight Plans you would file for this situation.
 
Just re-listened. It's ep 201, and Mark's question comes up around 17:30. Sounds like anyone within 30 minutes of the proposed departure point gets the strip. Having a bit of context made the discussion make more sense.

luvflyin said:
Yeah. Really wouldn’t be a problem with ‘Route’ in that situation. I’m curious. Give an example of two Flight Plans you would file for this situation.
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By way of example, I was thinking of filing 3M0-KCMI and maybe something like BUNKS-KCMI as @masloki mentioned he sometimes has a hard time getting clearance from Memphis in the air. If the 30 minute thing is correct, maybe both Memphis and Kansas City get the proposal, and Memphis would rather let KC deal with it rather than doing the clearance and immediately handing you off.

As it turned out I just filed from 3m0 and Memphis handled me no problem.
 
Jim K said:
Just re-listened. It's ep 201, and Mark's question comes up around 17:30. Sounds like anyone within 30 minutes of the proposed departure point gets the strip. Having a bit of context made the discussion make more sense.


By way of example, I was thinking of filing 3M0-KCMI and maybe something like BUNKS-KCMI as @masloki mentioned he sometimes has a hard time getting clearance from Memphis in the air. If the 30 minute thing is correct, maybe both Memphis and Kansas City get the proposal, and Memphis would rather let KC deal with it rather than doing the clearance and immediately handing you off.

As it turned out I just filed from 3m0 and Memphis handled me no problem.
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ZKC should not get a P strip from 3M0. Doesn't mean they that can't track it down eventually, but highly unlikely it would be delivered to the Sector there as a routine thing. If you decide your plan is to depart VFR and get the Clearance later from ZKC rather than earlier from ZME, I'd recommend filing from an airport rather than a fix. Like KMNF. Proposals off of airports seem to have a better track record of getting directly to the Sector Controller than proposals from points in space do. I don't see what @masloki had to say, but it sounds like the the strips are delivered to the Sectors 30 minutes prior to ETD thang. So time things right when you file. ETD when you expect to get over the point where you have filed as the beginning point of the Flight Plan. Anyway, sounds you like you aren't having to much trouble with ZME.
 
My note was in person, but Memphis radio isn’t great low and North of 3M0. My caution was get high and not too far North if trying to get a clearance. And can confirm, Memphis couldn’t/wouldn’t hear me on my hop to 1H5 at 3500 this Sunday.
 
I have this problem. My home airport is 3 miles from a Center boundary. When heading that direction and trying to pick my clearance up in the air, I typically get told to ask the second Center for my clearance. It’s interesting to learn whether there’s any reason to call the first Center, which I departed from, in the first place.
 
iamtheari said:
I have this problem. My home airport is 3 miles from a Center boundary. When heading that direction and trying to pick my clearance up in the air, I typically get told to ask the second Center for my clearance. It’s interesting to learn whether there’s any reason to call the first Center, which I departed from, in the first place.
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What airport?
 
masloki said:
My note was in person, but Memphis radio isn’t great low and North of 3M0. My caution was get high and not too far North if trying to get a clearance. And can confirm, Memphis couldn’t/wouldn’t hear me on my hop to 1H5 at 3500 this Sunday.
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I got them around 2000' I think, although flightaware starts my track log at 3800, so I could be mis-remembering.

Must be an issue with being so close to the speed of sound in the mooney.
 
I’ve never heard of a facility getting a proposal just because they’re within 30 minutes flying time of the departure field / fix.

There’s essentially two 30 minute rules. The flight plan pops up 30 minutes prior to ETD in the facility over the airspace that the airport / fix is in. That’s not a perfect system though. There are border facilities that can get the proposal as well. How the NAS computer host determines that is through algorithms. Once you depart, those same algorithms are used to calculate your penetration with other facilities. 30 minutes prior to airspace penetration, an enroute strip pops up in the receiving facility.

The problem arises with border facilities when you’re looking to pick up an IFR and you’re less than minimum coordination times (15 minutes / less with an LOA) or less than IFR sep requirements (generally 3-5 miles). The controller just can’t clear an aircraft IFR on the border without prior coordination. Now, is it that big deal? Nope, it’s pick up the landline and get approval or just put the aircraft on the next controller and give them control.

As far ARTCC getting a strip, yeah if the aircraft is climbing above TRACON. I know darn well though at my facility they weren’t getting our enroutes (less than 10,000 ft) during our normal working hours. After hours, I’m sure the host computer was configured to send them everything in our airspace.
 
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Ten years ago, my home field was in ZTL's area and I could raise them on the ground. It was trivial to get an IFR departure. Now we're under CLT airspace. I can't get them on the ground, and even getting a clearance on the phone is difficult. I even had ZTL try to see if they could get one from me (ZTL was willing CLT was not). Since the CLT runways point right at me the routing is always going to take me toward ZTL airspace anyhow, so I just file for SVH as a departure and call them as soon as I clear the airspace about two miles north of my field.
 
Centers are like the county sheriff. They are the controlling entity for IFR operations in FAA domestic airspace. TRACONs are delegated airspace by their respective center. It doesn't seem that way these days with the super TRACONs, but it is.
 
My favorite crack was when flying into Paducah Kentucky one time and center didn't give me a handoff to tower until I was in the middle of the runway (it was VMC though I was IFR). I apologized for the late handoff, and the tower says "That's why they're called en-route controllers."
 
Jim K said:
I got them around 2000' I think, although flightaware starts my track log at 3800, so I could be mis-remembering.

Must be an issue with being so close to the speed of sound in the mooney.
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True that! There’s always a large delay and pitch shift in the Mooney radio due to the Doppler shift.
 
And here I thought this thread was about what happens when a couple who own an airstrip get divorced...
 
Jim K said:
It was a pretty short discussion in either their last podcast or the one preceding it. One was castigating the other for discarding strips. I'm not familiar with their tracon, but something about an uncontrolled field that they get strips for, but planes never (or rarely, hence the discussion) call "triad" for the clearance. I'll have to go back and listen to it again to see if it makes more sense now. I think it was 201: "cloud police and bird murder", but I'm not 100% sure. https://www.opposingbases.com/

So how about if you're filling from an airport that a tracon controls? I assume the tracon gets the strip... how about the overlying center?
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Finally listened to it. Do those guys always open with 10 minutes of whats going on in their home life before getting to the ATC stuff? Anyway, they were talking about things completely within a Centers airspace, so that Center Surface Boundary thing doesn't apply here. The proposal will be sent ZTL's computer. Then from there they will be sent to the appropriate Sectors/Tracons/Towers. Looks like they have it set there to send them to both Tracons when the point of departure is close to the border. I'm sure this is very common. After that, as you heard, it's what the controllers do with the strips. And I see the old joke remains alive. How many Controllers does it take to change a light bulb? Ten. One to screw it in and 9 to tell him how he should have done it differently:biggrin:
 
midlifeflyer said:
I almost sent them feedback saying how thrilled I was to get them fighting with my question :D
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Lol. You be a :stirpot:. What's with this Duke and Vietnam stuff. Is that just them, or do the pilots around there call Raleigh and Charlotte that also?
 
luvflyin said:
Lol. You be a :stirpot:. What's with this Duke and Vietnam stuff. Is that just them, or do the pilots around there call Raleigh and Charlotte that also?
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They're the "car talk" of aviation. About 1/2 really useful information and 1/2 entertainment. To that end everyone makes up silly names for airports. "big saline body of water bravo", "taco truck airport", "coffee bravo", etc.
 
luvflyin said:
Lol. You be a :stirpot:. What's with this Duke and Vietnam stuff. Is that just them, or do the pilots around there call Raleigh and Charlotte that also?
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As I've heard the story (from them) when they started, they weren't sure if they should use their real names or the real name of the facility. So they used their initials and the barely anonymous nickname "Triad" (instead of Greensboro) for their facility. It was silly but it caught on and people sending in feedback have joined in with some interesting nicknames.

No, other than on the show, no one around here calls RDU "Duke," FAY "Vietnam" (think Fort Bragg), CLT "Metroplex," or KINT (Smyth Reynolds airport in Winston-Salem) "Cigarette."
 
midlifeflyer said:
As I've heard the story (from them) when they started, they weren't sure if they should use their real names or the real name of the facility. So they used their initials and the barely anonymous nickname "Triad" (instead of Greensboro) for their facility. It was silly but it caught on and people sending in feedback have joined in with some interesting nicknames.

No, other than on the show, no one around here calls RDU "Duke," FAY "Vietnam" (think Fort Bragg), CLT "Metroplex," or KINT (Smyth Reynolds airport in Winston-Salem) "Cigarette."
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Ah. I was figuring Viet Nam was Charlotte because of all the beetches I've heard about them here, like it was like a war zone or sumpin. What's "barely obvious" about Greesboro being Triad? I don't get it.
 
luvflyin said:
Ah. I was figuring Viet Nam was Charlotte because of all the beetches I've heard about them here, like it was like a war zone or sumpin. What's "barely obvious" about Greesboro being Triad? I don't get it.
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"Barely anonymous." The Triad or, more precisely, the Piedmont Triad, is the name of a region of central North Carolina roughly anchored by Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and High Point.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"Barely anonymous." The Triad or, more precisely, the Piedmont Triad, is the name of a region of central North Carolina roughly anchored by Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and High Point.
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Lol. Yeah, I guess it is barely anonymous. I now know the oh fish e ul name of the Greensboro airport
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Funny that. The FAA ID is GSO but the airline ticket ID is PTI
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No, it really isn't. The IATA code for the Piedmont Triad International Airport is GSO. People call it PTI, but the ticket code is GSO.

But the RADIO callsign varies independently of the airport name. The radar facility and the tower is "GREENSBORO" there. RDU is just "RALEIGH." MRB which is officially the "Eastern WV Regional Airport/Shepherd Field" is "MARTINSBURG" and so forth.

The one I never figured out is the VOR. The MRB VOR is no where near the airport but bears the same id. The Armel VOR is smack int he middle of IAD and it has a distinct name. To be really weird, Boston gave me an IFR route once that included IAD in the route. Of course /G I can follow that, but it was amusing it wasn't based on the VOR.
 
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