who for prebuy: historical and future mechanic or outsider?

[Badger]

Let's say I am interested in an aircraft at my home field. It has been here for 10 years and serviced by the onfield aviation service/mechanic. It is likely this aviation company will continue to do the service after my purchase.

However are they the best option for a prebuy? Since I want an inspection that is in MY best interest, would I be better off hiring a mechanic from off site for an honest and through opinion?

Does a prebuy usually include a written report and list of recommended services/costs?

thanks

 

[John221us]

How well do you know the on field shop? Do you trust them? You are probably better off with an outside opinion, but on my field, I know and trust my shop well enough, that I wouldn't want to risk an A&P I didn't know.

 

[Tom-D]

Let's say I am interested in an aircraft at my home field. It has been here for 10 years and serviced by the onfield aviation service/mechanic. It is likely this aviation company will continue to do the service after my purchase.

However are they the best option for a prebuy? Since I want an inspection that is in MY best interest, would I be better off hiring a mechanic from off site for an honest and through opinion?

Does a prebuy usually include a written report and list of recommended services/costs?

thanks

It should contain anything you ask for.

 

[Skylane81E]

NO!

Have fresh eyes, familiar with the type but not the plane, look at it.

When I do a pre buy I give a written report on the plane. How complete it is is up to the buyer. You decide how much money you want to invest in minimizing (not eliminating) the risks. Something that has worked well here is for the buyer to pay for an annual inspection and if at the completetion of the annual no issues have scared him off the seller then pays for the airworthiness items and the buyer pays the price agreed upon before the inspection. This let's you get something (fresh annual) for your inpection dollars if you do buy the plane.

If the seller will not allow a different mechanic to look at the plane, run, don't walk away. The current mechanic will once again miss all the things he missed before so IMO you'd safe cost and time to just ask for a copy of the discrepancy list from the last annual.

Example: last year I did a pre buy on a T tail Lance. Fresh out of annual (finished two days before) from a reputable repair station.

The nose gear casting had a big easily visible crack in it and the stabilator bearings were so blown out the ends wobbled up and down more than an inch.

On another plane a records check during pre buy showed that the plane that was on an active 135 was listed in Oak City as restricted category. (in their defense it did have a standard "normal" certificate in the plane and a log book entry from a FSDO inspector granting it multiple certs but if it wrecks the data would get pulled from OKC and the poo would hit the prop.)

 

[wabower]

My business is representing aircraft buyers ( I'm not looking for work on this forum) and I think this is one of the toughest calls regarding a pre-buy. In a best case, you would obviously prefer a "fresh set of eyes" to look at the airplane, but you would also prefer the accountability of the guy who will maintain it for you. That combination of desirability and (hopefully) objectivity is obviously impossible if the same guy who has been doing the work for the prior owner will be working for you in the future.

So your decision will be a tad more complex than otherwise, but you'll also be able to get much more historical information from the mechanic than from a guy who hasn't seen the airplane before. In this case, the mechanic's reputation and longevity on your airport are going to be the most important factors to consider. If he's been there a while and is maintaining a reasonable number of airplanes without excessive turnover or complaints, and if the airplane you're buying doesn't represent most of his meal ticket, there's a pretty good chance that he will be the better choice, although it's possible to hire another guy to take a look at the airplane and records and provide a second opinion.

My impression of the way in which the current mechanic reacts to such a suggestion would go a long way in determining whether I would want to use him in the future. If he says "sure, have anybody you want take a look at it and I'll be happy to provide anything he needs" that would obviously be better than "I don't allow any outsiders to work in my shop, blah yada."

Let's say I am interested in an aircraft at my home field. It has been here for 10 years and serviced by the onfield aviation service/mechanic. It is likely this aviation company will continue to do the service after my purchase.

However are they the best option for a prebuy? Since I want an inspection that is in MY best interest, would I be better off hiring a mechanic from off site for an honest and through opinion?

Does a prebuy usually include a written report and list of recommended services/costs?

thanks

 

[Tom-D]

My business is representing aircraft buyers ( I'm not looking for work on this forum) and I think this is one of the toughest calls regarding a pre-buy. In a best case, you would obviously prefer a "fresh set of eyes" to look at the airplane, but you would also prefer the accountability of the guy who will maintain it for you. That combination of desirability and (hopefully) objectivity is obviously impossible if the same guy who has been doing the work for the prior owner will be working for you in the future.

So your decision will be a tad more complex than otherwise, but you'll also be able to get much more historical information from the mechanic than from a guy who hasn't seen the airplane before. In this case, the mechanic's reputation and longevity on your airport are going to be the most important factors to consider. If he's been there a while and is maintaining a reasonable number of airplanes without excessive turnover or complaints, and if the airplane you're buying doesn't represent most of his meal ticket, there's a pretty good chance that he will be the better choice, although it's possible to hire another guy to take a look at the airplane and records and provide a second opinion.

My impression of the way in which the current mechanic reacts to such a suggestion would go a long way in determining whether I would want to use him in the future. If he says "sure, have anybody you want take a look at it and I'll be happy to provide anything he needs" that would obviously be better than "I don't allow any outsiders to work in my shop, blah yada."

Point being, If you can't trust the mechanic/company to do a good pre-buy why would you trust them to maintain the aircraft after you buy it?

I'd not bother with a pre buy in this case, I'd simply ask the mechanic his opinion of the aircraft. He may tell you the owner has a problem paying for the things that need done.

 

[jsstevens]

I am not an aircraft owner.

If you have a mechanic you trust and that you see eye to eye with on maintenance philosophy, I think it would be good to have them do the pre-buy. If you don't have that history, I think fresh eyes would be a good idea in addition to a discussion of your approach to maintenance (i.e. Anything broken or worn gets replaced right now vs. non-safety of flight issues get deferred to next maintenance time, etc.)

That's my opinion and you are entitled to it.:wink2:

John

 

[FlySince9]

Fresh eyes for the inspection but talk to the mech that has worked on it b4. Its not, so much, dishonesty that you're avoiding. The current condition of the airplane pretty much tells you what the normal mechanic knows. He's signed off on its current condtion, hasn't he?

Fresh eyes is just more likely to be more objective/less subjective which is what you're really looking for during a PPI, IMHO.

 

[wabower]

I learned long ago, and reinforced many times here, that mechanics often disagree on things as fundamental as airworthiness, then use the same FAA material as evidence for their diverse opinions. As a result, a second opinion is never a bad thing.

Point being, If you can't trust the mechanic/company to do a good preflight why would you trust them to maintain the aircraft after you buy it?

I'd not bother with a pre buy in this case, I'd simply ask the mechanic his opinion of the aircraft. He may tell you the owner has a problem paying for the things that need done.

 

[Tom-D]

I learned long ago, and reinforced many times here, that mechanics often disagree on things as fundamental as airworthiness, then use the same FAA material as evidence for their diverse opinions. As a result, a second opinion is never a bad thing.

So you find a new mechanic, he insists that every thing in the aircraft needs replaced, he needs his 401K.

The real question here is simple, " What will this aircraft cost me to have you do the annual next time"? He should tell you what he thinks will need to be done.

I have several aircraft that have things that are getting worn, but they were airworthy when I signed off the last annual, but if the wear continues at the present rate it will need replacing next year, tires are a good example. Engine oil usage is another.

They should say" the #3 cylinder was 65/80 at the last compression check, that will need repairing soon".
Stuff like that.

 

[Badger]

thanks for all the suggestions, lots of good ideas here.

 

[brien23]

I did a prebuy on a C-172 that I had worked on and did the annual for several years. The plane had 12,000 hours on it with a low time factory engine original cessna radio and old paint. I Recommended he not buy the plane gave him a list of what was comming up and he bought it anyway. For what he has spent he could have had the best 172 listed in trade-a-plane but al least he knew what he was buying and is still happy with it.

 

[W. Stewart]

If you care to tell us the airport, some people on here might know the mechanic and be able to give you feedback on him (either openly on the forum or via Private Message).

Wells

 

[wabower]

A few questions:

So you find a new mechanic, he insists that every thing in the aircraft needs replaced, he needs his 401K.

So if he disagrees with the first mechanic he's automatically trying to cheat me?

The real question here is simple, " What will this aircraft cost me to have you do the annual next time"? He should tell you what he thinks will need to be done.

What does that have to do with present condition? What kind of crystal ball do you have that provides you with knowledge of future condition? What if you're wrong?

I have several aircraft that have things that are getting worn, but they were airworthy when I signed off the last annual present rate it will need replacing next year, tires are a good example. Engine oil usage is another.

How does anybody, including the new owner, know how much the plane will fly before the next annual? Or the cost of fixing the stuff that breaks? Since you're discussing repair/replacement costs, it appears that you are not limiting the cost to just the inspection items.

They should say" the #3 cylinder was 65/80 at the last compression check, that will need repairing soon"

. Even if I point out that the engine logs show that the compression on that cylinder hasn't changed for the past 5 years?
Stuff like that.

 

[Tom-D]

A few questions:

Sence when are compression check results required to be placed in the log books?

I know my owners usage history, and from year to year it doesn't change much.

when was the last time you saw a low cylinder stay that way very long?

the mechanic who has been maintaining the aircraft should know the material condition of the aircraft better than any one, the question will be can you trust him to tell you?

 

[John221us]

How well do you know the on field shop? Do you trust them? You are probably better off with an outside opinion, but on my field, I know and trust my shop well enough, that I wouldn't want to risk an A&P I didn't know.

I would trust my Shop to tell me. They always have at least two sets of eyes on the plane and always tell me what needs to be done. I probably spend at least twice what I would with an independent guy, but my life is worth that. I don't consider differing maintenance or looking the other way on potential safety issues to be a favor to me. My shop has the same attitude. If there was differed maintenance on a plane, my shop would tell me, whether or not they were maintaining the plane. If you know the shop and you trust them, they might be your best choice.

 

[wabower]

Sence when are compression check results required to be placed in the log books?

Who said it was required? Are you saying the information isn't often included in the engine logs? Wanna place a friendly wager on that assertion?

I know my owners usage history, and from year to year it doesn't change much.

As you should. Do you know how the new buyer will fly it?

when was the last time you saw a low cylinder stay that way very long?

Almost every time I see them checked. Some of them increase over the prior year. You know as well as anybody that they're nothing more than a random sample anyway.

the mechanic who has been maintaining the aircraft should know the material condition of the aircraft better than any one, the question will be can you trust him to tell you?

There are many other questions as well, including his intelligence, aptitude, ethics, judgement, training and business management. But those questions aren't limited to just the current shop owner, and are equally important for anybody who is hired for the job.

 

[Tom-D]

There are many other questions as well, including his intelligence, aptitude, ethics, judgement, training and business management. But those questions aren't limited to just the current shop owner, and are equally important for anybody who is hired for the job.

you should. Do you know how the new buyer will fly it?

that's not the point, The Maintainer should know, and tell the buyer what is at risk in the next year.

How the buyer flys and cares for the aircraft is an unknown at any point.

 

[wabower]

I agree. My comments were in response to your post regarding telling the new buyer what MX would be necessary and the cost of the next annual.

that's not the point, The Maintainer should know, and tell the buyer what is at risk in the next year.

How the buyer flys and cares for the aircraft is an unknown at any point.

 

[Tom-D]

I agree. My comments were in response to your post regarding telling the new buyer what MX would be necessary and the cost of the next annual.

who else would know better what will require maintenance in the near future?

 

[wabower]

who else would know better what will require maintenance in the near future?

The guy who does it and prepares the list. A list of stuff you're watching would be helpful, but forecasting when the items will exceed tolerances is a guessing game. Wanna see a set of brakes that have been within a few thousandths for 5 years?

 

[AdamZ]

My business is representing aircraft buyers ( I'm not looking for work on this forum) and I think this is one of the toughest calls regarding a pre-buy. In a best case, you would obviously prefer a "fresh set of eyes" to look at the airplane, but you would also prefer the accountability of the guy who will maintain it for you. That combination of desirability and (hopefully) objectivity is obviously impossible if the same guy who has been doing the work for the prior owner will be working for you in the future.

So your decision will be a tad more complex than otherwise, but you'll also be able to get much more historical information from the mechanic than from a guy who hasn't seen the airplane before. In this case, the mechanic's reputation and longevity on your airport are going to be the most important factors to consider. If he's been there a while and is maintaining a reasonable number of airplanes without excessive turnover or complaints, and if the airplane you're buying doesn't represent most of his meal ticket, there's a pretty good chance that he will be the better choice, although it's possible to hire another guy to take a look at the airplane and records and provide a second opinion.

My impression of the way in which the current mechanic reacts to such a suggestion would go a long way in determining whether I would want to use him in the future. If he says "sure, have anybody you want take a look at it and I'll be happy to provide anything he needs" that would obviously be better than "I don't allow any outsiders to work in my shop, blah yada."

I've always found that Wayne has given practical advice. As you can see from the last few posts Practical advice can differ as Tom has also offered advice many times on this board and in PMs that I found helpful. So my thought is your going to get some conflicting opinions and that doesn't mean that one is right and the others wrong. In the end your going to have do what you feel most comfortable doing.

I don't own a plane but there are a few A&Ps that I know well enough that if they maintained the plane I'd feel pretty comfortable letting them do the annual. Keep in mind however that it may not all be about whether the mechanic is through and competent, that is obviously a must but what his relationship is with the seller, If I were the AP that maintained the plane I might want you to take it elsewhere. Think about it this way, Seller knows the mechanic for 10+ years, the seller is selling to get a new plane, and plans on having the AP do the Mx on the new plane but then the AP may be in a position to kill the sale of his existing plane, hows the seller going to feel about that?

There is a lot to consider and as Wayne said your not going to find the perfect situation. Best of Luck with the purchase.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I bought an airplane about 12 years ago and had the pre-buy done by a mechanic other than the one that had maintained it in the past and that we continued to use. Here are some thoughts.

1) Pre-buy should be done by a mechanic other than the one who has always done it in the past because new eyes see new things.

2) Pre-buy should not be an annual because annual requires a sign-off from an AI and pre-buy can be done by a anyone and doesn't require any sign-off because it isn't an FAA inspection. (cheaper)

3) Pre-buy should not be an annual inspection because any discrepancies found will require that the aircraft be found unairworthy and the owner is then obligated to fix or abandon an aircraft that he intended to sell. Fixing becomes non-negotiable.

4) Pre-buy only covers those things you specify and normally does not come with a cost estimate. You can say "I want a quickie." You can also specify you want all ADs checked, all cables inspected, every bolt examined.

5) Annual inspection is for airworthyness items and what needs to be fixed now. The pre-buy is aimed at finding what is beginning to wear out and will need to be fixed in the future.

6) Pre-buy never finds everything. Annuals never find everything either.

7) Our annuals are never the same because Bill knows our airplane and knows how we use the plane. One year the headliner comes off and he inspects cables. The next year he examines the rudder checking for wear on all the hinges. You will use the plane differently from the previous owner, so your first annual will probably be more thorough. It is interesting to compare the pre-buy with the first annual after you own it.

Good luck. Have fun.

 

[wabower]

Observations:

I bought an airplane about 12 years ago and had the pre-buy done by a mechanic other than the one that had maintained it in the past and that we continued to use. Here are some thoughts.

1)

Pre-buy should be done by a mechanic other than the one who has always done it in the past because new eyes see new things.

Not necessarily. All factors must be considered. Current mechanic may be the best choice.

2)

Pre-buy should not be an annual because annual requires a sign-off from an AI and pre-buy can be done by a anyone and doesn't require any sign-off because it isn't an FAA inspection. (cheaper)

Not necessarily, for two reasons:

a. If annual date is upcoming within a few months, or perhaps even longer, the cost of doing an annual inspection as a pre-buy may be cheaper than the cost of a pre-buy now and an annual later.

b. The inspection guide for an annual is (or should be) in writing and reasonably detailed as to the work performed. Many pre-buy inspections are neither. No guarantees either way, but at least some evidence if a "who shot John" scenario develops during or after the inspection.

3)

Pre-buy should not be an annual inspection because any discrepancies found will require that the aircraft be found unairworthy and the owner is then obligated to fix or abandon an aircraft that he intended to sell. Fixing becomes non-negotiable.

Not necessarily true. Some shops will try to use the pre-buy as a hammer, others will simply say it was in airworthy condition when it came in (according to the most-recent sign-off) so I'll provide both buyer and seller with a list of what we find and they can do whatever they want to with the airplane.

4)

Pre-buy only covers those things you specify and normally does not come with a cost estimate. You can say "I want a quickie." You can also specify you want all ADs checked, all cables inspected, every bolt examined.

Can you provide specific examples of the items you want checked and those you want omitted in a "quickie" as well as how you're sure that your definition matches up with the shop-owner's definition of such an inspection?

5)

Annual inspection is for airworthyness items and what needs to be fixed now. The pre-buy is aimed at finding what is beginning to wear out and will need to be fixed in the future.

Whose crystal ball will you use to forecast the extent and timing of future repairs? How far in the future does this prognostication reach?

6)

Pre-buy never finds everything. Annuals never find everything either.

Wanna see some invoices and work orders that prove this statement is incorrect?

7) Our annuals are never the same because Bill knows our airplane and knows how we use the plane. One year the headliner comes off and he inspects cables. The next year he examines the rudder checking for wear on all the hinges. You will use the plane differently from the previous owner, so your first annual will probably be more thorough. It is interesting to compare the pre-buy with the first annual after you own it.

Good luck. Have fun.

 

[wsuffa]

It depends on the plane.

I own a Commander, not exactly as common as 172s. What I prefer to do (and it doesn't always work out) is to have the annuals done at a different shop than does day-to-day maintenance. Where possible, I use a shop for annual that is experienced in Commanders (there are a few around). At one time, I'd take it back to the factory shop every couple of years; these days I tend to use shops that maintain other Commanders. I figure that having more than one set of eyes on this plane is not a bad thing.

That said, if I were looking at a more common type, the advice by Wayne and Tom are on the mark. Your biggest concern is how well the plane has been maintained by the prior owner. There are plenty of things that are not "airworthy items" now, but may become so later. If the local mechanic is/can be honest with you, he should be able to fill you in. That said, using the local mechanic can put him in a position that's (potentially) a conflict of interest - who does he have loyalty to: you or the owner?

 

[Tom-D]

That said, using the local mechanic can put him in a position that's (potentially) a conflict of interest - who does he have loyalty to: you or the owner?

two ways to look at that,, the new owner will be a new customer, the old owner might simply go away because he was simply a customer.

when the A&P-IA tells you the truth about the aircraft he may loose both the new customer and an old customer.

but if he BSs he'll loose both anyway.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

What Bill said. Depends on the aircraft. If it's a Comanche, have a Comanche shop look at it. Something as subtle as a couple rivets in the wrong place can open a whole can of worms. The current mx shop may not even realize there's a problem. Don't ask me how I know....

 

[Tom-D]

Wanna see a set of brakes that have been within a few thousandths for 5 years?

no, if they are that close fixem.

 

[poadeleted20]

You want someone who knows that aircraft type well, has a reputation for pickiness, and has no ties to the seller.

 

[wabower]

Why? To line some mechanic's pockets for work that isn't necessary?

no, if they are that close fixem.

 

[Tom-D]

Contrary to opinions of the posters on this web page, owners are simply customers to the facilities that do their maintenance, the A&P-IAs working there have no obligations to the seller or buyer.

Every facility that I know keeps records of what was replaced and what needs attention on each aircraft they service. Ask for those records, they contain AFTT, ETT, Time since major and all major repairs and the work orders and the amount of $ paid.

Committing fraud isn't some thing we do, just to be friends to the owner /seller/ buyer.

You guys always want to see the Log books, why not get all the maintenance records? remember we can give the owner a list of discrepancies after the annual, and still sign it off as airworthy.

Do you believe A&P-IAs keeps those lists?

 

[poadeleted20]

Contrary to opinions of the posters on this web page, owners are simply customers to the facilities that do their maintenance, the A&P-IAs working there have no obligations to the seller or buyer.

I'm sure there are mechanics who will give you an honest opinion no matter what their business relationship with the seller. I'm equally sure there are others who know that they need the seller's future business on the seller's next airplane, and will not jeopardize that future business compared to the zero likelihood that the buyer will be flying a few hundred or thousand miles back to them for work later on. One need only read through the sad tales of surprises found after pre-purchase inspections by the seller's mechanic to recognize the importance of finding a mechanic with no conflict of interest to resolve.

 

[bbchien]

I bought an airplane about 12 years ago and had the pre-buy done by a mechanic other than the one that had maintained it in the past and that we continued to use. Here are some thoughts.

1) Pre-buy should be done by a mechanic other than the one who has always done it in the past because new eyes see new things.

2) Pre-buy should not be an annual because annual requires a sign-off from an AI and pre-buy can be done by a anyone and doesn't require any sign-off because it isn't an FAA inspection. (cheaper)

3) Pre-buy should not be an annual inspection because any discrepancies found will require that the aircraft be found unairworthy and the owner is then obligated to fix or abandon an aircraft that he intended to sell. Fixing becomes non-negotiable.

4) Pre-buy only covers those things you specify and normally does not come with a cost estimate. You can say "I want a quickie." You can also specify you want all ADs checked, all cables inspected, every bolt examined.

5) Annual inspection is for airworthyness items and what needs to be fixed now. The pre-buy is aimed at finding what is beginning to wear out and will need to be fixed in the future.

6) Pre-buy never finds everything. Annuals never find everything either.

7) Our annuals are never the same because Bill knows our airplane and knows how we use the plane. One year the headliner comes off and he inspects cables. The next year he examines the rudder checking for wear on all the hinges. You will use the plane differently from the previous owner, so your first annual will probably be more thorough. It is interesting to compare the pre-buy with the first annual after you own it.

Good luck. Have fun.

I have never read anything more misguided than this. Where is "pre-buy" even defined?(!).

Firstly, if you don't look at all the items on the annual checklist (Mfr's), how are you going to know. So you do an annual even though the person you hire understands that it is not to be signed off as an annual inspection (no logbook entry unless agreed by the seller). The buyer needs that protection in case the inspector is a bit "over zealous". His aircraft already possesses a valid signoff and none more is needed.

The mech makes the whole list of discrepancies, for you. Then you and the seller have to decide what to do with the list.

Peggy's strategy might work for a 172 or for something that has very little to go wrong. But if you don't look at every item on the annual checklist, who's to blame when you get a $5,000 surprise on the first real annual when the bird is titled to you? YOU never looked, so YOU are to blame.

So do the annual, just don't necessarily put anything in his logbooks. Think 2% of an asset is "due diligence". That'll put it in perspective.