Who does the preflight?

jsstevens

jsstevens

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jsstevens
Quoting from another thread describing doing flight reviews:

"I let the owner take me through a thorough preflight."

I was going up with an instructor recently to do some crosswind landing practice. We got to the airplane and I started into my pre-flight routine. I've flown this plane more often than any other since about mid-way through my PP training and know it well. As I worked my way around the airplane, he untied the tie-down on his side, checked the oil and did some other puttering around. I continued my preflight just like I always do (except for the tie-down). I even checked the oil myself.

This raised a question in my mind: when you go out with an instructor (or even another pilot, I suppose) do you accept help with the pre-flight?

This made me mildy uncomfortable. I really don't want something to disturb my routine and cause me to miss something. If he had a suggestion, I'd be open to hearing it, but I'm not in a hurry when I pre-flight, and I'd really rather not have the help.

What are your thoughts?
John
 
Even is I am "helped" with the pre-flight I still do it all myself.
I want to know in MY MIND that "I" checked it.
 
I recently did some tailwheel time with an instructor and then finished my flight review with him yesterday morning in our cessna. I had to fly from KLOM to N10 to meet him, and as we approached the plane after our initial discussion, he did his own walk around ahead of me, moving surfaces and checking inspection panels and the baggage door. He asked me my oil level, but didn't specifically check himself. This was the first time he went in my cessna and followed my preflight just like I followed him a few weeks earlier at my first tailwheel lesson.

First time I go flying with someone, unless I know them very very well, I walk around and check out the plane too. My wife and kids depend on my decision to go/no-go, my plane or not.
 
I think you were quoting my FR description.

I don't "help" unless asked. For example, I fly often with a freind. We both know the airplane very well. I'll say, "I have the airframe" and he'll do cockpit, prop, and engine. Then one of us watches as the other dips the tanks and calls out how much.

On a Flight review, I don't think it's my place to "help." This pilot probably knows this airplane far better than I do. I may tag along and ask questions in learning mode in a very new-to-me airplane (I'll ask if that's ok), but otherwise I'm an observer.
 
Depends on the pilot's level of training and qualifications, and how much my experience with him/her allows me to trust him/her. For a student pilot on a Stage I check, I'll be eyeballing every step over his/her shoulder. For an experienced pilot I've been flying with and have repeatedly observed (both overtly and covertly) performing the preflight, I may finish my coffee inside while s/he does the walkaround. However, I won't intervene during the process unless I see something really requiring intervention like sticking fingers up to feel the aileron control rod on a 172 without holding the aileron up between the aileron and wing with the other hand (another reason I worry about those who occupy one hand holding the checklist while preflighting with only the other hand).
 
I'm with Dan Mc...I have friends with the same model aircraft as mine. If they get finished preflight before me, they come over to help. I don't need help and candidly, they get in the way because no matter what they do, I will redo to ensure I follow MY preflight list. At times they get a bit perturbed because they think their assistance will reduce my preflight time. Wrong.
 
The way I look at it, when I am doing my preflight, there is nothing else going on. If someone wants to help, or they want to do their own as they will be flying it (common with the glider), it has nothing to do with my own inspection.
But I might opt out of any part of it because I trust the judgment of the helper... this is simply another call you have to make.
But regardless of who they are or what they say, it's your call. That's what the preflight is all about.
 
dmccormack said:
I think you were quoting my FR description.
[snip]
Click to expand...

Dan,

Yes I was. Sorry for not citing you, but I tried to go back and look without losing my typing and I couldn't find the thread.

John
 
Any certificate pilot who is going to be a guest in the Seneca can preflight my aircraft. But I do the last preflight. I close all the oil doors, make certain the sumps are sealed, and the control surfaces move unobstructedly, gear locks are okay, etc.

If I'm a guest and could possible be held (by the FAA) as senior PIC, I at least check oil and sumps, AHEAD of the owner.

If I'm acting as a CFI, I stand in the corner and watch.
 
Ron Levy said:
Depends on the pilot's level of training and qualifications, and how much my experience with him/her allows me to trust him/her. For a student pilot on a Stage I check, I'll be eyeballing every step over his/her shoulder. For an experienced pilot I've been flying with and have repeatedly observed (both overtly and covertly) performing the preflight, I may finish my coffee inside while s/he does the walkaround. However, I won't intervene during the process unless I see something really requiring intervention like sticking fingers up to feel the aileron control rod on a 172 without holding the aileron up between the aileron and wing with the other hand (another reason I worry about those who occupy one hand holding the checklist while preflighting with only the other hand).
Click to expand...

I haven't done any Flight Reviews with Student Pilots -- have you?

:skeptical:
 
Ron Levy said:
However, I won't intervene during the process unless I see something really requiring intervention like sticking fingers up to feel the aileron control rod on a 172 without holding the aileron up between the aileron and wing with the other hand (another reason I worry about those who occupy one hand holding the checklist while preflighting with only the other hand).
Click to expand...

All it takes is a gust of wind on the other side ONCE to cure you of that habit.

Another one I've learned is to put my left hand on the right-side step to help lower myself as I go under to check those three fuel sumps. Keeps me from smacking my forehead on it. :yesnod: :yesnod:
 
...everytime....and sometimes I do decline. Times are hard and the fleet is getting raggy.....
 
The person who is ultimately responsible for any flight is the pilot in command. If you are a student flying with an instructor, the instructor is the pilot in command. Whoever the PIC is, that is the person who must decide if the airplane is fit to fly, or airworthy. A student is expected to do a pre flight, and depending on proficiency and training level, make a go-no-go decision, but the final decision remains with the PIC.

Even though you are in the left seat, if you are with an instructor, you should expect that instructor to make at least a cursory inspection of the aircraft. If you are the PIC and are flying with another pilot, you should appreciate any checking that the person might do. In the end, should anything go wrong, it is the PIC who will suffer any consequences.

If your instructor or pilot passenger states to you that they have checked the oil and it is OK, that should never be a cause for you to not check it yourself. Your pre-flight sequence of the aircraft should never be altered, no matter what others may do ahead of you.

If an instructor or pilot passenger checks something after your normal pre-flight inspection, it is your responsibility to go back and insure that whatever they checked has been secured properly.

John
 
jsstevens said:
This raised a question in my mind: when you go out with an instructor (or even another pilot, I suppose) do you accept help with the pre-flight?
....
What are your thoughts?
John
Click to expand...

When I fly, I want people to feel comfortable with me, and be assured that I'm professional and safe. Too many times in my past, on a personal and professional level the words "trust me" have failed me in the worst ways.

Therefore, while I have no obligation or responsibility to do so, I usually invite other pilot-passengers to walk around with me, and look in the tank, look at the sumped fuel and look at the oil with me. I'm not looking for their blessing, but I've got nothing to hide.

I maintain the final authority and responsibility, while extending a professional courtesy to my colleagues who are riding with me.

Use a checklist and you are less likely to "skip" a step due to a distraction (helpful pilot pax or other)
 
I ask if the person I'm flying with wants help. Fuel and oil check I like to look at myself, the rest I follow along with just a visual. On my aircraft I preflight on my own and keep the same routine, it's usually mary pulling plugs and cover then setting up headsets while I flow through the checks.

I recently started using a flashlight even during daylight hours. I find it helps focus on items. I work through my preflight then review the checklist prior to start up checks.
 
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There are some jobs that 1 person does better than 2, and this is one of them. I won't split pre-flight duties, it's just too easy for something to be overlooked because both pilots thought the other did it.

If you're flying with me, you're welcome to check the plane over before I do, or to look over my shoulder as I do it, but I'm doing my entire routine from beginning to end, regardless of what help you might volunteer to provide. My hands are the last ones to touch everything that needs to be touched.

That's if I'm the PIC. If you're the PIC, then I expect the same system to be in effect, but you're the one responsible for checking everything, and your hands will be the last ones to touch everything.
-harry
 
If you're riding with me, you're welcome to follow along. But I will personnaly check every item on that checklist, the same checklist I've followed for about 10 years now. And please don't interrupt me in the middle of it. There's a method to my madness. Now, if I'm riding with you, I will watch while you do your preflight and will make sure that everything I would check has been checked. But unless I see something that doesn't see right, I won't say anything. Not a CFI, just an old pilot who wants to get older.

Just because you're paraoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
 
Ron Levy said:
Of course not. Why do you ask? Or were you thinking a "stage check" is another name for a "flight review"?
Click to expand...

No. I know the difference.

jsstevens said:
Quoting from another thread describing doing flight reviews:

"I let the owner take me through a thorough preflight."
....

This raised a question in my mind: when you go out with an instructor (or even another pilot, I suppose) do you accept help with the pre-flight?
Click to expand...

See the OP? The question wasn't about student preflights.
 
Depends. Typically if I'm flying with someone in the Aztec, I do the pre-flight with them so that they know where to check everything, levels I expect them to be at, etc. If I'm with someone who knows the plane checks something on their own or with my asking, I'll ask them what they saw and decide for myself if it's acceptable. For example, I may have a reason why I want to keep the fuel or oil at a particular level. I always check the doors myself. They're a bit quirky on my plane.

When flying in someone else's plane, I check what they ask me to check, and then tell them the results to make sure that it's what they want. Same logic. Strangely enough, people typically ask me to check the engines. If they don't want my help, I'll keep an eye on what they're doing to see if they have a habit I don't that would be good to add to my routine. Actually, I'll do this anyway. I've picked up some good habits by watching others.

When flying with a student, first few times I'll make them do it and just watch. Once I have a good idea that they know what they're doing, I'll help with the pre-flight to make it go quicker, and we'll go over things like fuel and oil level to make sure it's sufficient.

I don't get paranoid over needing to visually see everything for myself so long as I get the information told to me that I need, and don't see a need to be overly paranoid about it.
 
I do not accept "help" with my preflights. Anyone qualified and coming along is more than welcome to do their own preflight, all I ask is that if I am PIC, you do yours ahead of mine so I know that I am the last person to insert dipsticks, close access hatches & cowlings.... If you spot something, by all means, speak up. I don't want to miss something and end up in a field over it then hear "Yeah, I noticed there was something not right about that on the preflight, but you didn't say anything about it so....":mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
My flight review required perhaps a dozen + flights due to me having zero time in the last 35 years. The first one, my instructor made sure I had a checklist and watched the first one.

After that, he made appointment times with me to be ready with pre-flight done when he showed up at that time. That worked out fine as I arrived early with plenty of time to work it at a leisurely pace and nobody there to add pressure to get going.
 
skidoo said:
After that, he made appointment times with me to be ready with pre-flight done when he showed up at that time. That worked out fine as I arrived early with plenty of time to work it at a leisurely pace and nobody there to add pressure to get going.
Click to expand...

My CFI did the same with me about 20 hours into the PP curriculum.

My CFII was never out until I was ready to start up.

Coom and CFI training I'd fly to them.
 
dmccormack said:
I haven't done any Flight Reviews with Student Pilots -- have you?

:skeptical:
Click to expand...

That is just an instructor thing, anyone I am instructing is a "my Student" even if thier pilot certificate doesn't say "Student Pilot"

Brian
 
brcase said:
That is just an instructor thing, anyone I am instructing is a "my Student" even if thier pilot certificate doesn't say "Student Pilot"

Brian
Click to expand...

Hmmm....

I know what you mean, but can't say I take the same approach with a Student Pilot as I do with a gazillion-hour guy with an A36 needing a FR.
 
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dmccormack said:
I know what you mean, but can't say I take the same approach with a Student Pilot as I do with a gazillion-hour guy with an A36 neding a FR.
Click to expand...
I think that's pretty much what I said, too. So why did you ask me about doing flight reviews with student pilots? And I'm sure still you'd watch carefully your "gazillion-hour guy" on a flight review, since even the preflight should be reviewed, just to make sure he isn't getting lazy about it.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I think that's pretty much what I said, too. So why did you ask me about doing flight reviews with student pilots? And I'm sure still you'd watch carefully your "gazillion-hour guy" on a flight review, since even the preflight should be reviewed, just to make sure he isn't getting lazy about it.
Click to expand...


I caved to the ever-wandering scope of this thread. :redface:

I "watch" the high-time-guy, but the approach is different. A student pilot is on a sliding scale of independence. A certificated pilot should be performing at least to his/her cert level.

Anyway, we were talking about "flight reviews,' but then folks don't seem to want to stay focused. :nono:

How does that happen??? :rolleyes:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That's why I'm looking for an Experimental Amateur Built LSA - avoid some of the issues with finding parts, paying an A&P in addition to my preflights and checklists being mine. :devil:
Click to expand...

This doesn't require an experimental aircraft. My preflights and checklists on my Aztec are mine, too.
 
I do the preflight when I fly with my CFII. He does his own where he checks fluid levels. We have come to an agreement since climbing up on the wing is very difficult for me. I stand behind the wing while he dips the fuel and pulls up the dipstick so I can see the fluid level. Then I watch him tighten the fuel caps and observe that they are properly aligned. Other than letting him do that, I perform all the preflight myself and ignore his checks.
 
On sort of a side note, here's an interesting example of a multiple-party inspection:
The day I did my PP-G checkride, one of the other club members was doing his CP-G with the same DE. As the two of us untied the glider, the DE did his own walkaround. When we got to the staging area, he said he needed to see "one or both" of us perform a preflight... we sort of overlapped it; we'd call out what the other was looking at, etc.That worked out fine- we know each other as pilots well enough to trust each other's judgement, and of course a glider preflight is quite simple. It didn't hurt that I'd already preflighted the glider before anyone else got there that morning, LOL.

In the end, the PTS was met, and each pilot who would be flying in that thing that day got to satisfy himself that it was airworthy.
 
Like any other stuff when there's more than one pilot - I work it out before we get to the airplane. Generally if I'm PIC I make sure I check the fuel caps and oil cap and other "critical" stuff no matter what. There are a few guys/gals I fly with that I trust completely and will let them preflight while I do the filing or other stuff.
 
markb5900 said:
Even is I am "helped" with the pre-flight I still do it all myself.
I want to know in MY MIND that "I" checked it.
Click to expand...

I am the same way. That way your routine stays your routine.
 
When my husband and I fly, one is Pilot in command and one is Parent in command. Who ever is not flying closes the hangar door and (used to) get the kids out of the car and in the plane (now they are grown up). The pilot in command calls for the weather briefing, makes the go/no go decision and does all steps of the pre-flight, from removing the tow bar to verifying seatbelts and door latch. Doing it the same way everytime is the safest pre-flight. If we fly with non-pilots we will explain the pre-flight as we do it.
 
Generally, when Leslie and I are flying together, whomever is PIC does the entire preflight. The other may do something like untie a wing or the like, but it's the PIC's responsibility to do the entire preflight. We also discuss that the Pilot Not Flying's responsibilities are going to be during the flight. I admit, we don't usually brief use of the seatbelts, though! :)
 
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