If you were nice you'd just correct the form trying to forge the mechanic's writing so he doesn't look dumb.
Who can update W&B records?
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Silvaire
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Silvaire
As I said, if for whatever reason the empty weight is being changed that in itself is an alteration. I'm not seeing what your point is here.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Wow. Both sides are right. If there appears to be a mistake, add a note to that effect on a separate sheet of paper and attach it. Then get the original mistake fixed by the person who made it or another A&P, but you can't alter someone else's statement even though you think it's wrong.
dtuuri
A&P 2135693
dtuuri
A&P 2135693
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I fail to see how recording the weighing of an airplane is an alteration per the FAA's definition of major and minor alterations. The only thing being changed is the W&B record and if that's an alteration in your thinking I'd also have trouble seeing how you differentiate this with "altering" the official W&B records due to a mistake discovered in the current record.As I said, if for whatever reason the empty weight is being changed that in itself is an alteration. I'm not seeing what your point is here.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
If you weigh the airplane and the result is different than what the current W&B Record states then there is an alteration. I don't care what the reason for the difference is, the aircraft physically weighs a different amount than it did according to the Report.
What we have been discussing here in this thread was an error in a derived value calculated from two known values (which we are assuming for this discussion to be good) If the empty weight CG of the aircraft is 39 inches and a Mechanic mistakenly calculates it to be 40 inches and writes that number on his report guess what - it's still 39 inches. So if you make a corrected report stating that the empty weight CG is 39 inches nothing has physically changed on the airplane. The empty weight CG is what it is in accordance with the laws of Physics regardless of what anyone wrote on a report. The important thing is for that report to have the correct value, not a signature.
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Witmo
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Tim
We're talking legality not anything else and the signature is important. Your aircraft might be in perfect condition, but if it is one day past annual it is illegal to operate. If you change anything that an a&p has written in your logbook, you've done something that negates the reason the a&p had to sign his name and write his certificate number in the MX record. You keep harping on the fact that it's a correction but that doesn't allow you to do something that you aren't authorized to do. If a mechanic timed your magnetos to an incorrect value, you don't have the legal right to redo the timing and sign it off. If he just wrote down the wrong value, he needs to make the correction and sign/initial it. You can't just make corrections on someone else's log entries. This is the last time I respond to your attempt to justify correcting log book entries. It's apparent that nothing anyone says will dissuade you from doing what you feel is right regardless of legality.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
You are correct but that would be physically altering something on the airplane which is not what we are discussing. Furthermore, while we're at it, we are also not discussing the alteration of logbook entries. We are talking about the Weight and Balance Report carried on the airplane, the only requirement of which is that it have the correct empty weight and empty weight CG written on it. There is no signature required and there is no specified form or format required.
It is in fact illegal to fly the airplane with a W&B Report that contains the erroneous value. I don't care if it were signed by Wilbur Wright.
Witmo
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Tim
I never said it was legal to fly with an incorrect w&b report. It is also moo illegal for an unauthorized person to generate a corrected one if the official one is in error.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'll admit that I'm not certain that an A&P signature is legally required on a revised W&B that simply corrects a mathematical error but I strongly disagree with your last statement. IMO about 90% of the GA fleet is flying with perfectly legal but somewhat inaccurate W&B data. I'm certain that from the FAA's perspective a pilot can legally use the last official W&B information (which I still think requires an A&P signature) even though a re-weighing would likely produce a different set of numbers.
IOW I see nothing in the FARs or enforcement proceedings that requires a pilot to check the math on the current W&B documentation.
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Silvaire
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Silvaire
Who told you that? You're just making it up, aren't you? LoL
Silvaire
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Silvaire
I'll let you in on a well known "secret" - If you weigh a 30 year old airplane there is a very good chance that it's the first time it's ever been on a set of scales. The manufacturer is only required to actually weigh a small percentage of their production and use an average for the documented empty weights.
No regulation is going to stipulate that you should check your Mechanic's math any more than you should recheck his magneto timing but there is the catch-all that as Pilot in Command it's you're responsibility to ensure that all is in order prior to taking flight in any aircraft.
But that's not what we're into here, we're just saying - should you notice a mathematical or clerical error on the W&B Report just correct it, end of story. And we aren't suggesting you do it in some sort of devious manner as to make it appear as though it had been corrected by the person who made the error and signed the paper. Ideally the correction is a stand alone document or entry and all intents and purposes are fully clear and traceable.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, that's so well known that I've been privy to the "secret" for years.
Given that it is pretty much impossible to "become familiar with all available information concerning that flight" most of us fly in violation of 91.103 all the time. In any case my point was that whether or not an A&P signature is required for a math correction on the official W&B documentation, it's not technically illegal for a pilot to fly an airplane with such an error or any other discrepancy between the airplane's true weight and the official W&B. Of course if it could be proven that the pilot clearly knew that a substantial error existed and by ignoring the error managed to crash a grossly overloaded or out of CG envelope airplane, I suspect the FAA would be making 91.13 noises.
That's where we disagree but I don't think either position is fully defensible purely from an FAR perspective.
But I am authorized to determine weight and balance, I have been tested by the FAA on it multiple times and they approved me and require me to calculate one every time I fly. What I may not be authorized to do is weigh the airplane and enter the empty weights. From that point on there is no skill set I have not been licensed for. The arms of the wheels are given by the manufacturer, I do not have to measure them.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Keeping the AFM's 'empty weight' current is a mechanic's responsibility according to AC 43.13-1B, ACCEPTABLE METHODS, etc.:
dtuuri
10-15a. REPAIRS AND ALTERATIONS
are the major sources of weight changes, and it
is the responsibility of the aircraft mechanic
making any repairs or alteration to know the
weight and location of these changes, and to
compute the new CG and record the new
empty (EW) weight and EWCG data in the
aircraft flight manual.
10-15b. ANNUAL OR 100-HOUR INSPECTION.
After conducting an annual or
100-hour inspection, the aircraft mechanic
must ensure the weight and balance data in the
aircraft records is current and accurate.
Just sayin'...are the major sources of weight changes, and it
is the responsibility of the aircraft mechanic
making any repairs or alteration to know the
weight and location of these changes, and to
compute the new CG and record the new
empty (EW) weight and EWCG data in the
aircraft flight manual.
10-15b. ANNUAL OR 100-HOUR INSPECTION.
After conducting an annual or
100-hour inspection, the aircraft mechanic
must ensure the weight and balance data in the
aircraft records is current and accurate.
dtuuri
Nobody has argued the weight part.
dtuuri
Final Approach
The weights as they are recorded are not being changed. The rest isn't a record, it's a calculation.
dtuuri
Final Approach
It's in the record. Changing/checking it is in the mechanic's domain. If it were preventive maintenance, a licensed pilot could do it. It's part of the 100 hr/annual, so mechanics do it. Why is this hard to see?
dtuuri
It's in the record. Changing/checking it is in the mechanic's domain. If it were preventive maintenance, a licensed pilot could do it. It's part of the 100 hr/annual, so mechanics do it. Why is this hard to see?
dtuuri
Bedaure it's Not changing what has been recorded.
dtuuri
Final Approach
bluerooster
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shorty
Easy way out: How long has it been since the last W&B calculation based upon the actual weight of the aircraft?
We were pleasantly surprized when we decided to weigh our airplane and do the calculations based upon that weight. Over the years it had gone through several mods, and W&B calculations. But had not been weighed since new. (1963)
We managed to gain several pounds of useful load, and now have an accurate W&B.
Apparently wiring removed that was terminated on both ends, old antennae with nothing hooked to them, myriad minor math mistakes, and removal of a couple pounds of dirt and debris, add up.
And what makes it really neat is the fact that it came to us with a single kx155, and transponder, we added a gns300 with indicator, four seat intercom, and kma24 audio panel with marker beacon.
We were pleasantly surprized when we decided to weigh our airplane and do the calculations based upon that weight. Over the years it had gone through several mods, and W&B calculations. But had not been weighed since new. (1963)
We managed to gain several pounds of useful load, and now have an accurate W&B.
Apparently wiring removed that was terminated on both ends, old antennae with nothing hooked to them, myriad minor math mistakes, and removal of a couple pounds of dirt and debris, add up.
And what makes it really neat is the fact that it came to us with a single kx155, and transponder, we added a gns300 with indicator, four seat intercom, and kma24 audio panel with marker beacon.
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