while we are on the subject of logging time (actual)

NJP_MAN

NJP_MAN

Pattern Altitude
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While coming into Bravo VFR tonight I was directed to 2 different holding fixes and more vectors than I can shake fuel strainer at. After about 15+ minutes I realized that I had spent equal amounts of time dialing the heading/alt bugs and looking at the instruments as I was looking outside. So should I log instrument time for all the time I spent flying solely by reference to the instruments? To clear things up, the airplane WAS in the air (not taxiing) and I had in my possession a metal landing calculator.
 
I think if you have Metal landing calc on board it is actually PIC and you cannot log the time.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I think if you have Metal landing calc on board it is actually PIC and you cannot log the time.
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I don't think you can count actual time if you're VFR, but I could be wrong?

While we're on the subject of logging actual time, would flying over Lake Michigan at night (even if you're not in a cloud) count as actual time since you're flying solely on instruments since there is no horizon? My instructor told me you had to be in a cloud...

Couldn't you choose not to look outside while flying IFR and only look at your instruments and log that as actual? I would think so but once again my instructor said you had to be in a cloud to log actual.. I'm curious what others have to say.
 
Just ones man's opinion, but unless I'm in the soup I don't log it.


IMC, Instrument Meteorological Conditions

me·te·or·ol·o·gy (mē′tē-ə-rŏl′ə-jē)
n.
The science that deals with the phenomena of the atmosphere, especially weather and weather conditions.


Now some folks (not me) even have a colon to log IFR... So if you're flying under those rules, log it.
 
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Read the regs,


Part 61 Index
(Certification)

Part 67 Index
(Medical Standards)
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(g) Logging instrument flight time.
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
​
(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.

The bold highlight is from me.
​
 
Well I thought we had already came to the conclusion that

Actual =/= IMC

I guess we will have to re-visit that topic again. Yes you can log instrument time while over lake Michigan on a moonless night if you're VFR. If you fly solely by reference to instruments, you would be a fool to log anything but actual instrument time.



Edit: ^ you beat me to it.
 
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Eh, read the whole thing:

A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
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Yes, we've established that VFR on a moonless night over the desert is instrument flight conditions (even if it's not IMC) because there's no way you could keep the dirty side down by looking out the window. Same has been argued for between sloping cloud layers, over the ocean just above VFR mins, etc.

But, even if you're flying wholly by reference to instruments, if there's nothing stopping you from safely flying by looking out the window (and I don't think "ATC gave me a lot of vectors" is going to cut it), you're not in instrument flight conditions, and can't log the time. (It also implies that you weren't looking out the window enough to see and avoid other traffic, which probably isn't something you want to admit to.)
 
wlawr005 said:
I'm probably wrong...but I log all night time as instrument time.
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You are, unless it's a Navy requirement to do so. Under part 91, it's not all instrument time.
 
NJP_MAN said:
While coming into Bravo VFR tonight I was directed to 2 different holding fixes and more vectors than I can shake fuel strainer at. After about 15+ minutes I realized that I had spent equal amounts of time dialing the heading/alt bugs and looking at the instruments as I was looking outside. So should I log instrument time for all the time I spent flying solely by reference to the instruments? To clear things up, the airplane WAS in the air (not taxiing) and I had in my possession a metal landing calculator.
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You were inside the class B while you were flying around in VFR conditions with your head down - right?

I really wouldn't be happy if you ran me down from behind while I am VFR under a B shelf.
 
EdFred said:
You are, unless it's a Navy requirement to do so. Under part 91, it's not all instrument time.
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I don't know, it would take some lawyering and fancy wording to prove me wrong. At the boat, all night time is actual. Around here, on an IFR flight plan, night time is at least simulated time if nothing else. It doesn't bother me to log it that way.

At night the only way to tell how high I am, what direction I'm going, how fast I'm going there, and whether my wings are level is by instruments.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You were inside the class B while you were flying around in VFR conditions with your head down - right?

I really wouldn't be happy if you ran me down from behind while I am VFR under a B shelf.
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The way I read it was he was either in the Class B or heading into the Class B and was put in a holding pattern by ATC. Soooo since you are within 30 miles you have mode C on and your complaint is a non-issue.
 
Cykoguy said:
The way I read it was he was either in the Class B or heading into the Class B and was put in a holding pattern by ATC. Soooo since you are within 30 miles you have mode C on and your complaint is a non-issue.
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Yes in B.

How can one hold on a heading and altitude at night without reference to instruments at least a little ? I did look outside a lot but I also accumulated a lot of looking at rate,alt,dg and bug time.
 
NJP_MAN said:
How can one hold on a heading and altitude at night without reference to instruments at least a little?
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A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
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I don't think you get to say "I was looking down half the time, so I'll log half of it as instrument flight."
 
Why not?

I don't understand the confusion. If you're looking at your instruments, log instrument time. You can log simulated instrument time day, CAVU, VFR. What's going on outside doesn't matter.
 
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Cykoguy said:
The way I read it was he was either in the Class B or heading into the Class B and was put in a holding pattern by ATC. Soooo since you are within 30 miles you have mode C on and your complaint is a non-issue.
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So, you are saying that ATC is responsible for providing separation from VFR aircraft outside the class B?
 
wlawr005 said:
Why not?

I don't understand the confusion. If you're looking at your instruments, log instrument time. You can log simulated instrument time day, CAVU, VFR. What's going on outside doesn't matter.
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Simulated, what's going on inside matters - safety pilot required (91.109), and a view-limiting device in use. I can't find a definition of simulated but the Carr letter referenced in the other thread addresses it and specifically mentions obstructing the pilot's vision.

Actual is, well, actual. :)

I really have a hard time seeing how you can interpret the regulation to support the idea that you can start logging instrument time by looking down at the instruments. It's explicit that you must also be under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

You might have different rules to Part 91 though, and I know nada about that.
 
tiger said:
It's explicit that you must also be under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

You might have different rules to Part 91 though, and I know nada about that.
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Night time, holding on a fix that cant be seen visually, flying a heading (not a ground track). Sounds pretty instrument-ey to me.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Night time, holding on a fix that cant be seen visually, flying a heading (not a ground track). Sounds pretty instrument-ey to me.
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You can always add a column to your logbook to track "Pretty Instrument-ey Time". :)

Seriously, I think the Carr letter deals with this. I don't think what you're being asked to do is relevant, though. Just what the conditions are outside (for it to qualify as 'actual').
 
At sea, you can almost certainly get away with logging night as instrument. FAA has said if you have to fly by instruments at night or between layers because you cannot see a horizon in a featureless area (like out west, or at sea), then you can log it as instrument.
 
tiger said:
Simulated, what's going on inside matters - safety pilot required (91.109), and a view-limiting device in use. I can't find a definition of simulated but the Carr letter referenced in the other thread addresses it and specifically mentions obstructing the pilot's vision.

Actual is, well, actual. :)

I really have a hard time seeing how you can interpret the regulation to support the idea that you can start logging instrument time by looking down at the instruments. It's explicit that you must also be under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

You might have different rules to Part 91 though, and I know nada about that.
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So...me (single seat jet) can't log simulated instrument time during day, VFR operations when shooting practice approaches?

Me thinks I can. And if I was for some magical reason on a VFR flight plan, I would only log the times I was shooting approaches as instrument.

Just like during day IFR operations, maybe I don't need to log any instrument time. But maybe I flew through a cloud...automatic .1 actual during a 1.0 flight.

We don't do a whole lot of night VFR...as in almost zero. I'm always on and IFR flight plan and there's not a whole lot of ground reference that's gonna get me from tacan station to tacan station. That's all instrument time, actual or simulated.
 
Well, you're not part 91, for sure... ...so I really wouldn't presume to know what you can / can't log.

But if you were a hobby pilot alone in a 172 shooting approaches and actual instrument conditions did not prevail then, no, you couldn't log any of it as instrument time.
 
Interesting...I didn't know that. One of the drawbacks to growing up flying in the military I guess. If we had to have to guys in the jet to log simulated instrument time, or wait for actual instrument time, we'd never make our mins.

I do understand why we do things we way we do now, and how things work under the FAA. That's pretty much the sole reason I'm on this forum, to gain that kind of understanding.

Cheers.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Yes in B.

How can one hold on a heading and altitude at night without reference to instruments at least a little ? I did look outside a lot but I also accumulated a lot of looking at rate,alt,dg and bug time.
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And there's the key statement in your own words in bold. While you were looking outside you used the visual cues you had to help keep the plane under control, in IFR, you have NONE OF THAT.

What part of the word solely do you not understand?

solely

adverb only, completely, entirely, exclusively, alone, singly, merely, single-handedly

What that means is that you have nothing else to aid in keeping the plane upright and under control, except the instruments alone.
A clear night doesn't cut it, nether does having an undercast with cities glowing through it and stars overhead.
Night alone doesn't allow you to log IFR.



In your thinking I could log instrument time in my Champ, even though it doesn't even have any of the basic instruments required for IFR as long as I follow ATC directions or identify a fix somehow.

Personally I don't give a RA what you log or how you log anything, but if you were someone I knew, then I would caution you that anytime in the future that you may present your log book to an examiner and then tried to explain logging IFR time. I think they would have some in depth questions for you about your logging of time, your choice.
 
champ driver said:
, in IFR,

Night alone doesn't allow you to log IFR.




to explain logging IFR time.
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Since we are going with semantics, what exactly does it mean to be "in" IFR or to "log" IFR. Nobody said anything about IFR the thread is SOLELY about logging instrument time.
 
I don't understand the concept of ATC directing a VFR pilot into a "hold."
 
paflyer said:
I don't understand the concept of ATC directing a VFR pilot into a "hold."
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I don't get that either. NJP_MAN, what do you mean when you say you were directed to a holding fix? You didn't actually hold I hope?
 
paflyer said:
I don't understand the concept of ATC directing a VFR pilot into a "hold."
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Landing at the class B primary and was issued holding instructions (6 minutes or so) for sequencing.
 
sixpacker said:
I don't get that either. NJP_MAN, what do you mean when you say you were directed to a holding fix? You didn't actually hold I hope?
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Sure I did. Held at a VFR visual point and a second time over a class D airport above the airspace. I have had to do this on probably 7-8 occasions.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Sure I did. Held at a VFR visual point and a second time over a class D airport above the airspace. I have had to do this on probably 7-8 occasions.
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So how did they do this? Tell you to circle over a visual point?
 
sixpacker said:
So how did they do this? Tell you to circle over a visual point?
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"Proceed -D-> Squaw Peak , hold north at ×,××× feet; expect to hold for appx 6 minutes for sequencing" or something real close to that.
 
So Squaw Peak is a visual point? So basically circle north of that visual point at the assigned altitude?
 
sixpacker said:
So Squaw Peak is a visual point? So basically circle north of that visual point at the assigned altitude?
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HOLD north were the instructions. There was never a mention to "circle". And if you don't make Left turns you will be reminded that left is what they expect.
 
NJP_MAN said:
HOLD north were the instructions. There was never a mention to "circle". And if you don't make Left turns you will be reminded that left is what they expect.
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It's not really a "hold" which is usually right turns anyway. I'm not aware of formal VFR hold procedures? Don't get me wrong I've had VFR holds before for example at Aspen in a non-jet/turbine the tower will ask you to hold over the golf course if you're visual and there is jet driving coming or going and the winds are out of the north. But it is most definitely a VFR operation of basically circling over a visual point. So definitely eyes outside.
 
sixpacker said:
It's not really a "hold" which is usually right turns anyway. I'm not aware of formal VFR hold procedures? Don't get me wrong I've had VFR holds before for example at Aspen in a non-jet/turbine the tower will ask you to hold over the golf course if you're visual and there is jet driving coming or going and the winds are out of the north. But it is most definitely a VFR operation of basically circling over a visual point. So definitely eyes outside.
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kind of the same thing here. But it's Hold and its at night. They know im very familiar so I can't say I didn't see the VP but they certainly refer to it as a hold. And I brought up the left because I gave him right turns (since I'm vfr I should be able to turn anyway I choose) but he wanted lefts. Like i said, it's pretty common.
 
James331 said:
Now some folks (not me) even have a colon to log IFR...
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James, it's ok if you log your instrument time in your butt, no need to play the "some folks" card
 
James331 said:
Just ones man's opinion, but unless I'm in the soup I don't log it.


IMC, Instrument Meteorological Conditions

me·te·or·ol·o·gy (mē′tē-ə-rŏl′ə-jē)
n.
The science that deals with the phenomena of the atmosphere, especially weather and weather conditions.


Now some folks (not me) even have a colon to log IFR... So if you're flying under those rules, log it.
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Sorry to hear about your missing colon.......:rolleyes:

Anyway, I fly on a moonless night across the South China Sea, out of sight of land. Not a cloud in the sky, but it's dark.

Using your logic I shouldn't log that as IFR? :dunno:
 
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