while we are on the subject of logging time (actual)

[EdFred]

Sorry to hear about your missing colon.......

Anyway, I fly on a moonless night across the South China Sea, out of sight of land. Not a cloud in the sky, but it's dark.

Using your logic I shouldn't log that as IFR?

No, but you can log it as instrument.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68934

 

[James331]

Sorry to hear about your missing colon.......

Anyway, I fly on a moonless night across the South China Sea, out of sight of land. Not a cloud in the sky, but it's dark.

Using your logic I shouldn't log that as IFR?

Gotta love autocorrect.

Anywho, I have a IMC COLUMN, so if its not IMC don't log it.

 

[poadeleted20]

First, some definitions...

As a legally critical point of semantics, let's not forget the definitions of VMC, IMC, simulated instrument conditions (which for brevity I'll call SIC here), and actual instrument conditions (AIC).

VMC is flight conditions in which VFR flight is permitted under 14 CFR 91.155. These conditions change depending on altitude and airspace.

IMC is flight conditions in which VFR flight is not permitted under 14 CFR 91.155.

From the 1984 Carr letter of interpretation:

"Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles.

"Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

Note in particular the "typically," as oppose to "always" in the AIC definition.

Thus, you can be in AIC in VMC -- say, between layers at night with several thousand feet between the layers and miles of visibility, but no visible ground or horizon references for navigation or control. Likewise, you can be in IMC without being in AIC, say, when you're 1500 feet laterally from the only cloud in a clear blue sky.

This may seem silly, but it's an important point to remember when discussing these rules, particularly since there are times you can be legally logging instrument time in VMC, and there are also times you cannot legally log instrument time when in IMC. So, to get to the OP's question:

While coming into Bravo VFR tonight I was directed to 2 different holding fixes and more vectors than I can shake fuel strainer at. After about 15+ minutes I realized that I had spent equal amounts of time dialing the heading/alt bugs and looking at the instruments as I was looking outside. So should I log instrument time for all the time I spent flying solely by reference to the instruments?

...the question is whether or not "some outside conditions [made] it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft." Based on what the OP said, while the OP may have been spending more time looking inside than looking outside, the "outside conditions" were not forcing the OP "to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft". Therefore, it cannot be logged as actual instrument time.

 

[poadeleted20]

Anyway, I fly on a moonless night across the South China Sea, out of sight of land. Not a cloud in the sky, but it's dark.

Using your logic I shouldn't log that as IFR?

Insufficient information -- you don't say whether you were operating under instrument flight rules or not, and the FAA doesn't talk about logging "IFR" time anyway. However, based on your description of the outside conditions (not to mention my own experience flying at night over the South China Sea), there's no doubt that you can by the FAA's rules log it in your 61.51 pilot logbook as "actual instrument time".

 

[poadeleted20]

Gotta love autocorrect.

Anywho, I have a IMC COLUMN, so if its not IMC don't log it.

Since the FAA doesn't ask for "IMC" time, nor do they have any requirements in Part 61 (or any other Part of which I am aware) for "IMC" time, I don't see the point of having such a column, but you are certainly free to create columns with titles not of FAA definition for your own amusement if you so choose.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Insufficient information -- you don't say whether you were operating under instrument flight rules or not, and the FAA doesn't talk about logging "IFR" time anyway. However, based on your description of the outside conditions (not to mention my own experience flying at night over the South China Sea), there's no doubt that you can by the FAA's rules log it in your 61.51 pilot logbook as "actual instrument time".

I think at FL360 I'm using instrument flight rules...

 

[poadeleted20]

I think at FL360 I'm using instrument flight rules...

Like I said -- insufficient information, since you didn't say that the first time, either. But I'm not all that conversant in the rules there as to whether or not you had to be operating under IFR -- we did a lot of stuff out there at night at all sorts of altitudes without talking to any ATC facility or filing an IFR flight plan, but that was 40 years ago.