While reading up on Airplane Multi Engine Land…

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
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20,803
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Denton, TX
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Home Airfield
KDTO (Denton Enterprise)
For those curious, training is being done at In The Pattern at KDTO and their Aztec.
 
It’s a nice challenge. I did mine with Pilots Choice GTU in a Duchess. First few flights feel foreign, but then you’ll get into a groove. By 10 hrs I felt confident. 13 hrs was ready for checkride. Keep at it!
 
The most important thing to know about twins is that you can’t use them to get a $100 hamburger. From now on, you will always be in search of the elusive $200 double cheeseburger.

The rest is just checklist discipline and feeling like a giant when you get back into a PA-28 or similar sized plane.
 
AggieMike88 said:
For those curious, training is being done at In The Pattern at KDTO and their Aztec.
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Thanks for the warning. Let us know when you’ll be up:goofy::devil::rofl:. Anyway, have fun. You’ll be doing it a real twin unlike me. It was a Seminole. Stall speed is higher than Vmc. Maybe they outta have a limitation on that like the centerline thrust thang
 
1.1 hours in the books. Basic stuff such as getting used to new aircraft, normal takeoff, air work, fundamentals, normal landing.

Did a full shutdown of right engine. Handling of thr Aztec in that state was much more docile than I anticipated. But can see how responding improperly will get you in trouble.

One of the bigger muscle memory changes is reaching overhead for trim. And remembering which way to crank.

Next lessons are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
 
Piper ceiling crank? If your hand swings towards your forehead, it will tip your head back...and nose up aircraft. Back of the head, nose down.
 
AggieMike88 said:
...Did a full shutdown of right engine. Handling of thr Aztec in that state was much more docile than I anticipated. But can see how responding improperly will get you in trouble...
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The Aztec has a large vertical fin and a lot of rudder authority; you are correct that an engine out is generally comparatively uneventful.

texasclouds said:
Piper ceiling crank? If your hand swings towards your forehead, it will tip your head back...and nose up aircraft. Back of the head, nose down.
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Not certain of course, but he might have been referring to the rudder trim when they shut down the RH engine?
 
I wish I flew two planes with the same trim control. The transition back and forth gets easier the more often you make it.

Flying with one engine off only gets dramatic when you aren’t ready for it or you get too slow. Most of the training is to beat those two mistakes out of your system. And to have a ton of fun!
 
GRG55 said:
Not certain of course, but he might have been referring to the rudder trim when they shut down the RH engine?
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Never been in an Aztec...maybe you know a guy that can change that. :)

Is the rudder trim overhead? I have flown Pipers with the elevator trim up there.
 
GRG55 said:
Not certain of course, but he might have been referring to the rudder trim when they shut down the RH engine?
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Lateral trim is what I’m referring too. 625+ hours in Cessnas, and 75+ hours in PA28’s has me reflexively reaching for the wrong spot.

Hopefully by hour 24.9 I have it all sorted. :cool:

Didn’t employ rudder trim today. Was too saturated to remember it and made do with feets
 
Radar Contact said:
Is the rudder trim overhead? I have flown Pipers with the elevator trim up there.
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Yup!

And that huge anti-servo tab makes it so a noticeable less trim change is needed when compared to the 172’s and 182’s I usually fly.
 
Radar Contact said:
Never been in an Aztec...maybe you know a guy that can change that. :)

Is the rudder trim overhead? I have flown Pipers with the elevator trim up there.
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LOL, happy to comply first opportunity that presents itself. I still owe @eman1200 a ride as well, so maybe make the long trek (with adequate reserves of scotch) to Rough River next year?

Yes, the rudder trim is a large knurled knob concentric with the elevator trim crank. I have electric elevator trim in my Aztec but the rudder trim is all manual, and since I don't use it all that much, other than training, I still sometimes fail to remember which way to turn it.

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I never used the rudder trim in the Duchess. Your plane is probably alot heavier though.
 
GRG55 said:
LOL, happy to comply first opportunity that presents itself. I still owe @eman1200 a ride as well, so maybe make the long trek (with adequate reserves of scotch) to Rough River next year?

Yes, the rudder trim is a large knurled knob concentric with the elevator trim crank. I have electric elevator trim in my Aztec but the rudder trim is all manual, and since I don't use it all that much, other than training, I still sometimes fail to remember which way to turn it.

View attachment 96350
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Yours is definitely newer.

N125Y has two overhead cranks, no electric trim. Big hollow rectangles instead of traditional yokes.

Very stable flying machine to boot. Found it interesting how fast our IAS was even when MP was ~18 inches.
 
Pardon the thread drift - but how big a deal is 'shock cooling' on training twins - where (I assume, having Zero multi experience) repeated in-flight shutdowns occur? How does that go for/against the 'shock cooling' controversy?
 
40YearDream said:
Pardon the thread drift - but how big a deal is 'shock cooling' on training twins - where (I assume, having Zero multi experience) repeated in-flight shutdowns occur? How does that go for/against the 'shock cooling' controversy?
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The 'training twins' have engines that are less worrisome for shock cooling. The Seminole has O-360's, for example. And that's one reason those twins are preferable for training to the Seneca with its turbocharged engines or the Cessna 421 with its giant, turbocharged, geared engines.

Other than that, it's a matter of pilot technique and babying the engines. For example, the 310 has cowl flaps that are normally open, but you can close them to help retain heat in low power settings. When you bring an engine back from the dead, you warm it up gently. It's the little things that make your engine happy.

You also don't have to completely shut an engine down every time you demonstrate single-engine maneuvers. You can simulate a secured engine with a feathered prop using a zero-thrust power setting, which is probably in the POH for most light twins. Keeping it running at low power helps to keep it warm.
 
Ah yes, Aztec days.
The ones I used to fly had a 5200# gross and Metco tips which had an extra 24 gallons per side.
Flying along at night in the dead of winter and in icing conditions, getting startled by the bang as the props would sling chunks of ice onto the fuselage sides.
Picking my way through thunderstorms with radar and looking for 'soft' spots.
Just an honest workhorse with no real bad habits that will carry a load of ice.
The good old days.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Multi Engine training starts soon
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Nice! Enjoy it! I LOVE flying ME. The only bummer, not a single (local) friend of mine has their ME.. which is okay I guess but if we go for the local hamburger run it's less fun for the right seater and more expensive for me! Also means I have to pick between sharing costs across 3 pilots in a 182 (everyone here knows how much I LOVE the 182) or paying for all of it and going alone in an Aztec for Oshkosh this year :(

AggieMike88 said:
overhead for trim
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No electric trim? The one I fly, which I ASSumed was standard setup, has a trim toggle on the yoke, although that's just elevator only

GRG55 said:
you are correct that an engine out is generally comparatively uneventful
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I couldn't believe how easy it was, even with a windmilling prop, unfeathered prop! The Duchess, which is already apparently "easy" required much more rudder force and "active flying" than the Aztec. When my instructor did the first unannounced shut down in flight I thought maybe someone tapped a throttle to change power settings. But nope.. that was a windmilling engine out there! We were light, but the thing was still easily WELL above blue line and achieving a healthy climb rate.
 
Tantalum said:
Nice! Enjoy it! I LOVE flying ME. The only bummer, not a single (local) friend of mine has their ME.. which is okay I guess but if we go for the local hamburger run it's less fun for the right seater and more expensive for me! Also means I have to pick between sharing costs across 3 pilots in a 182 (everyone here knows how much I LOVE the 182) or paying for all of it and going alone in an Aztec for Oshkosh this year :(
...
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Why would you need to go alone in the Aztec to OSH? I get people, including friends that are non-pilots wanting to know if I am going each year and asking if there's a seat available. It's a great travelling airplane, as you know. Take 3 buddies and all the camping gear you can fit in it for a comfortable week. They can pay for your beer and brats all week if sharing gas money is against the rules. :cool:
 
GRG55 said:
Why would you need to go alone in the Aztec to OSH? I get people, including friends that are non-pilots wanting to know if I am going each year and asking if there's a seat available. It's a great travelling airplane, as you know. Take 3 buddies and all the camping gear you can fit in it for a comfortable week. They can pay for your beer and brats all week if sharing gas money is against the rules. :cool:
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My two non pilot friends who would be interested in going can't go this year and the rest are all pilots and would ideally like loggable stick time. One bought a Taylorcraft and is actually flying that out there so he's got his own plane to take

It's okay, I'll have enough flying adventures in this machine!
 
iamtheari said:
The most important thing to know about twins is that you can’t use them to get a $100 hamburger. From now on, you will always be in search of the elusive $200 double cheeseburger.
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Because if one hamburger patty sucks, the remaining one will still get you to a successful lunch, provided proper eating skill is employed.
 
GRG55 said:
I've always worried about leaking vital fluids like ketchup and relish, and having to suspend operations and cage the burger.
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At least you won’t have to just pick the nearest open trash can and hope you can throw the failed single-patty burger into it from where you stand.
 
Trying not to crack up on my miserable Zoom call. :D

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I'm wondering how long before @AggieMike88 decides the PoA twin engine pilot cohort is a bad influence and one to steer well clear of?
 
Tantalum said:
Everyone knows with two burgers you are twice as likely to have a bad patty.
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And then you find there's an AD out on that patty, you have to buy a whole new replacement burger and that means your operating costs are triple those of a single burger lunch.
 
GRG55 said:
And then you find there's an AD out on that patty, you have to buy a whole new replacement burger and that means your operating costs are triple those of a single burger lunch.
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As long as you're replacing part or all of the burger, though, that's when you upgrade to the 1/3-pound patties, pepperjack cheese, and pretzel bun. Now you've got yourself one sweet burger and your single-patty friends are all jealous. Granted, they probably finished lunch an hour and a half ago and their health insurance costs much less than yours. But what do you care? You're a deluxe double cheeseburger man now, and nobody can take that away from you.
 
GRG55 said:
I'm wondering how long before @AggieMike88 decides the PoA twin engine pilot cohort is a bad influence and one to steer well clear of?
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I will publicly say…

If I could afford to own and operate a light twin, the Aztec is a model I’d be happy to have in my hangar.
 
Radar Contact said:
Never been in an Aztec...maybe you know a guy that can change that. :)

Is the rudder trim overhead? I have flown Pipers with the elevator trim up there.
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Kevin, I've never been in a 310. You and I swapped a few emails from your you-tube channel.
I ended up buying a 74-Aztec. Happy to swap you some time in my Aztec!! :). I've got family in the ORD / KENW area that I'll be seeing soon.
John... Based at KABQ / KAEG
 
You goto a great burger place with your single engine pilot friend.
He orders a really yummy burger. You order TWO (twin) burgers.
The cook botches on of your burgers and your friends burger.
With a twin burger, YOU still have a burger and thus have been able to land lunch!!
 
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