Which plane would you recommend for PPL?

[elvisAteMySandwich]

I read an opinion about how some accidents in high performance aircraft were the result of not having good foundational skills. The author blamed cessnas for being too tame and forgiving of student mistakes, so pilots were less skilled when they later transitioned to more demanding planes.

As I'm thinking about starting flight training again to get my PPL, I'm wondering which plane I should choose. Which would you recommend to someone who wanted to develop good stick and rudder skills while getting their PPL? Any of these or something else? Does it matter?

• Cessna 172 w/ steam gauges
• Cessna 172 w/ glass
• Vans RV-12 w/ glass
• Cessna 152 w/ steam
• Grumman traveller w/ steam
• Piper warrior II w/ steam
• Piper archer w/ steam
• Piper cherokee w/ steam

 

[Arnold]

For stick and rudder skills I would recommend at taildragger with no gauges except those legally required for VFR.

 

[Dana]

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

For stick and rudder skills I would recommend at taildragger with no gauges except those legally required for VFR.

This may be a dumb question as I know nothing about taildraggers, but for the same plane is the taildragger version that different to a trike one?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

None of those seem to be real "stick and rudder" airplanes.

This may be a dumb question as I know nothing about taildraggers, but for the same plane is the taildragger version that different to a trike one?

In the air, not much difference.
Interfacing with a runway, big difference.

Some older airplanes also tend to have less refined handling in the air - one has to use the pedals as something other than a foot rest.

 

[Arnold]

Short answer, yes - especially ground handling. Longer answer. Taildraggers tend to be older designs. Many of them don't have pilot work load easing features like differential aileron displacement, aileron rudder interconnects etc. that make the in flight parts easier. My airplane has massive adverse yaw. Most pilots I talk to forget they learned about that for their written exam. I get Lady Luscombe back from the IA tomorrow and he says the ailerons were slightly out of rig so I'll see if re-rigging made a big improvement.

Also I am to put it mildly a bit under powered at 65 hp. This makes all pitch control sins quite visible.

 

[RyanB]

Funny how the desire to train in a tailwheel airplane is discouraged nowadays. It’s too ‘complex’ for a new pilot...

 

[chemgeek]

A basic C152 is a nice handling trainer. But I would recommend getting a few hours in several different aircraft during training. I think I did time in a C152, C172, PA28, Citabria, and an Aeronca Champ prior to the PPL checkride. But mostly in a C152. Flying different models is a good way to learn how aircraft are "the same, only different," to channel Yogi Berra. Glass is overkill for basic stick and rudder instruction, although if you will be an owner and want to fly IFR you will want some sort of glass instruments.

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

I don't see a lot of tailwheels (if any) at flight schools. Are tailwheels that much more difficult to learn in or is it just that newer pilots are preferring trikes?

I have flown a C172 and C152 before but don't have enough experience to judge which was teaching me better skills. How about weight and power? Does flying a lighter weight plane teach you to understand wind effects more or is it just a waste of time getting pushed around?

 

[denverpilot]

I don't see a lot of tailwheels (if any) at flight schools. Are tailwheels that much more difficult to learn in or is it just that newer pilots are preferring trikes?

I have flown a C172 and C152 before but don't have enough experience to judge which was teaching me better skills. How about weight and power? Does flying a lighter weight plane teach you to understand wind effects more or is it just a waste of time getting pushed around?

Schools use popular aircraft because when an aircraft goes down for maintenance the students and instructors can just grab the keys to another one. It’s like fast food.

Both the Cessnas are fine for early learning. Lots of people have. Your original question asked about “best” for stick and rudder skills and a “purchase” which usually means someone will be owning the thing for a while, so folks went toward a taildragger.

Renting, you can rent whatever you and your instructor think you need at any particular time in your learning curve. That is a positive for renting early on.

 

[Witmo]

Tail draggers force you to develop good technique and force you to pay attention. They do this by punishing bad technique and a moment's inattention. There's a reason that tail wheel aircraft command an increased insurance premium. At my airfield in the span of one week, two experienced pilots ground looped and caused major damage to their aircraft. Did they make a mistake? Of course they did, but even though they were experienced, the insurance company still had to lay out the cash to make them whole. Should you go out of your way to insist on learning on a tail dragger? -- Only if you plan on acquiring or mostly flying tail draggers after you earn your PPL. It's increasingly difficult to find anyone offering primary instruction in tail wheel aircraft.

 

[Arnold]

Tail draggers force you to develop good technique and force you to pay attention. They do this by punishing bad technique and a moment's inattention. There's a reason that tail wheel aircraft command an increased insurance premium. At my airfield in the span of one week, two experienced pilots ground looped and caused major damage to their aircraft. Did they make a mistake? Of course they did, but even though they were experienced, the insurance company still had to lay out the cash to make them whole. Should you go out of your way to insist on learning on a tail dragger? -- Only if you plan on acquiring or mostly flying tail draggers after you earn your PPL. It's increasingly difficult to find anyone offering primary instruction in tail wheel aircraft.

This generally good advice. There is a whole thread here about a young man learning to fly in his own Luscombe. He also has a you tube channel. If taildraggers are not in your future airplane purchase desires then they will still generally make you a better pilot. A friend finds his tailwheel time makes him a better turbo-prop pilot. Still for ease of learning anything you mentioned in your first post will work fine. I'd lean towards the AA-5, but I prefer being different.

For outrageous insurance premiums see: seaplane, floatplane, amphib, etc.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Are tailwheels that much more difficult to learn in

Nope.

 

[DFH65]

Are tailwheels that much more difficult to learn in

Back in the day we just called the planes.

Seriously I trained and now own 1/2 of a 172. Hard to go wrong with a 172 or 150. Having said that love flying TW. Hec I love flying anything who am I kidding.

What are you planning to fly when you are done?

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

What are you planning to fly when you are done?

I'm most likely going to rent while getting my license, unless someone smacks me in the head with a deal. Just wanted to clarify as someone thought I was going to purchase.

When I'm done I want to do cross country trips about 500NM from me. I'd like to ultimately get a plane that can do about 150+ knots - if I had to pick one today it would be a Vans RV-7a.

After reading the comments on here, I'm intrigued about taildraggers. Realistically for me, getting that endorsement will probably have to come after I get my private.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Realistically for me, getting that endorsement will probably have to come after I get my private.

Unfortunately, it has become "typical" to do it the hard way. Starting out in a tailwheel from day 1 is easy. Making the transition after getting used to a nosewheel seems to be more difficult based on my observations. (Note: I ain't no flight instructor)

 

[Dana]

s
I have flown a C172 and C152 before but don't have enough experience to judge which was teaching me better skills. How about weight and power? Does flying a lighter weight plane teach you to understand wind effects more or is it just a waste of time getting pushed around?

Yes, exactly that. The 150/152 is easier to fly than a 172, but it's more difficult to fly well... which makes it a better trainer.

A J-3 Cub or other old lightplane, even more so.

 

[kath]

Don't choose a plane.
Choose an INSTRUCTOR, and fly whatever plane he or she uses/likes/has access to.

This will make the most difference in turning you into a safe and skilled pilot, in any plane. The idea of "blaming Cessnas" or whatever is ridiculous compared to receiving quality instruction.

...or are you considering buying your own aircraft for this training? Because if so, there are a whole lot of additional considerations...

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

Unfortunately, it has become "typical" to do it the hard way. Starting out in a tailwheel from day 1 is easy. Making the transition after getting used to a nosewheel seems to be more difficult based on my observations. (Note: I ain't no flight instructor)

I'll have to ask around at the local flightschools who have tailwheels and see what their experience has been.

Yes, exactly that. The 150/152 is easier to fly than a 172, but it's more difficult to fly well... which makes it a better trainer.

A J-3 Cub or other old lightplane, even more so.

Can you expand a little bit about flying well. How would I be able to tell if I'm flying well? Would it show itself in my crosswind landings?

Don't choose a plane.
Choose an INSTRUCTOR, and fly whatever plane he or she uses/likes/has access to.

...or are you considering buying your own aircraft for this training? Because if so, there are a whole lot of additional considerations...

I've been talking to different flight schools and the original list was a subset of the aircraft they have available. I don't know how to choose a flight instructor and several schools I spoke to will just assign their least busy (maybe newest?) CFI to you. Many years ago I squandered time/money by not managing my training and having a CFI who told me I fly well and just kept encouraging me to fly. Burned through my money without soloing, but I did get xc, nav and night training. When I look through any modern syllabus, I realize some of the ways it could have been better.

I would consider buying a plane, I just don't have any experience in what that would entail.

 

[schmookeeg]

I don't see a lot of tailwheels (if any) at flight schools. Are tailwheels that much more difficult to learn in or is it just that newer pilots are preferring trikes?

Neither. Insurance is triple and up, or unobtainable for taildraggers in a commercial/flight school setting. After that major hurdle, you need to find competent CFIs, then you need to find students who prefer to learn in them like you do -- and pay the resultant increased price when insurance gets factored in.

There is not really a viable avenue any more to rent taildraggers for primary instruction. You'd do better to purchase one, get your license in it, and sell it when you're ready for something else.

 

[Arnold]

Can you expand a little bit about flying well. How would I be able to tell if I'm flying well? Would it show itself in my crosswind landings?

You will get many, many answers to what "flying well is." The first hurdle is flying safely. Example. My lady friend (now f/o and f/e) was always noting when I bounced a bit. I did not like this because a bit of a bounce does not bother me so much though I'd rather they did not happen. I explained that I had three criteria for landing. 1) airplane pointed straight, 2) airplane not drifting laterally, 3) main wheels straddle the center line.
This is just an example. What I described is a safe landing. Is it always beautiful? No. Have I landed "well." I have no idea.

 

[kath]

I don't know how to choose a flight instructor and several schools I spoke to will just assign their least busy (maybe newest?) CFI to you.

Yes, this is the tricky part, isn't it?
First of all, it's perfectly OK to ask any instructor (or flight school) to "shop around" a few different instructors. CFI's don't "own" students, and the good ones will understand this completely.

It's hard to explain or quantify how to "know" you've got a good one, since it's their job to Know All The Things and you don't yet. But sometimes you can just "vibe" when the communication is working effectively, or when it is not. Since students are all different too, this is less like researching the best product, and more like "matchmaking".

Do you feel comfortable asking questions? (yay!)
Do they get answered? (yay!).
Does the CFI seem comfortable and calm, like they have the situation under control even though you're at the controls? (yay!)
Does the CFI belittle you or yell? (boo!).
Can they explain the "flow" of a PPL syllabus and identify where you are on the plan? (Sounds like your previous CFI didn't do this, if they were putting night and XC before solo...).
Do they give you constructive feedback on how you're doing? (yay!)

A good CFI will gauge what level you're at and direct the instruction accordingly. Remember, they are also trying to "vibe" on you, and figure out what you're ready for next. But every student's pace is different and they're not mind-readers, so it's vital that communication be a two-way street, especially in your case since you've got some previous flight experience already. "I was just so overwhelmed today" vs "I've already done a gazillion of these steep turns" will speak volumes to a good CFI... a good one might even ask you "How did that lesson feel?" On every lesson, you should feel as though your boundaries got pushed somehow, enough to require effort but not so much as to be completely discouraging or brain-exploding.

Avoid the temptation to pre-judge CFI's based on their age or experience level. Teaching is (ironically) a nearly impossible skill to teach, and the only way to find out if they've "got it in the blood" is to try 'em out. Nothing wrong with trying out the "school's newest guy" as long as you keep this perspective and don't be afraid to ask to try someone else. Remember, the hours all count, and every hour you can learn something.

Best of luck!

 

[Utah-Jay]

I am flying 4 hours this week and will hit the magical 10 hours of instruction. Buddy and I will be in a taildragger and start our tail wheel instruction starting August 31st as we don’t have one available until then. We will be all tail wheel going forward.

 

[MarkH]

Funny how the desire to train in a tailwheel airplane is discouraged nowadays. It’s too ‘complex’ for a new pilot...

It's not too complex, it's too expensive to insure and too difficult to find CFIs (although that may not be an issue currently).

I have 20 hours in a taildragger without an endorsement. Mostly because (pre-COVID), I tried 4 times to get my endorsement, but before I finished it became difficult to schedule time with a CFI (resulting in long breaks before I start over again). Although last time, the plane blew some exhaust studs right before I had to leave to move across the country.

 

[Dana]

Can you expand a little bit about flying well. How would I be able to tell if I'm flying well? Would it show itself in my crosswind landings?

Could be a lot of things, but I meant it in terms of making the plane do what you want it to do, precisely, regardless of the wind (yes, especially in crosswind landings).

It's not too complex, it's too expensive to insure and too difficult to find CFIs (although that may not be an issue currently).

Yeah, my local FBO has a J-3 for Sport Pilot instruction... but you can't rent it after you get your license because the insurance won't let renters hand prop it... so one of the SP-CFIs started a flying club around a Champ with electric start.

 

[Llk]

I'll have to ask around at the local flightschools who have tailwheels and see what their experience has been.



Can you expand a little bit about flying well. How would I be able to tell if I'm flying well? Would it show itself in my crosswind landings?



I've been talking to different flight schools and the original list was a subset of the aircraft they have available. I don't know how to choose a flight instructor and several schools I spoke to will just assign their least busy (maybe newest?) CFI to you. Many years ago I squandered time/money by not managing my training and having a CFI who told me I fly well and just kept encouraging me to fly. Burned through my money without soloing, but I did get xc, nav and night training. When I look through any modern syllabus, I realize some of the ways it could have been better.

I would consider buying a plane, I just don't have any experience in what that would entail.

I purchased my training airplane nearly 20 years ago. Renting makes the school money and your rental also goes to pay fir a higher rate of insurance.

As an example, there’s a Cherokee 140 that is either for sale or is about to be on the classifieds here. The sale price is 23500; Imagine buying that airplane for 20-24k for the sake of argument. It has 1500 hours or so on the engine, and a mechanic confirming the engine in good condition would give you plenty of time left for your private and instrument rides if not commercial.

If I recall correctly, assuming you’re dirt poor with good credit, time value of money and all, I recall 25k aircraft financing for 20 years running around $250 a month. There are a few firms that specialize in aircraft financing. Many buy cash, some take a home equity loan and others use their financial aid awards. Ymmv.

Depending on your location, a tiedown could be less than 20 a month to a little over a hundred a month in price gouging Southern California.

My ia charges two dollars per horsepower fir the annual. A shop would charge more. My 172 has 160hp. Insurance time me a little over $500 a year.

Will you pay more as a student or New pilot? You bet. Will you need money for squawks? Undoubtedly.

At close to $200 an hour for most school rentals, at 50 hours for a ppl you’re already 10k in. Add instrument and that more than doubles.

With my example you can sell your run out Cherokee/172 for not much less than you bought it for, learn a ton while owning, and be way ahead from renting. Split the costs with a partner? Even more so.

Deviate by talking about taileraggers, TAAs with fancy glass, RVs with a completely different acquisition cost and resale market and the equation blows up.

Cessna. Piper. Resell when done, then decide what you really want in an airplane.

I kept my 172, bought a turbo mooney, have a Lancair, and I’m consolidating planes as my mission and finances change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Arnold]

Depending on your location, a tiedown could be less than 20 a month to a little over a hundred a month in price gouging Southern California.

Or suburban Philadelphia.

A friend did this in the past two years. , Did some cosmetics work and sold the PA-28-140 for $4K more than he paid for it. buy after end of summer and sell near start. YMMV but a very reasonable route to go. If aircraft start depreciating with minimal use then the equation changes.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Building good skills is much more dependent on the student than the plane. Some guys learn enough to fly safely and then kind of just sit back and enjoy the ride from there without ever giving much thought to improving their skills. Others approach every flight as an opportunity to get more precise. Any plane can give you good skills if learning good skills is your goal.

 

[chemgeek]

Planes are planes. You can learn to fly in any of the planes listed. I'll bet that the C152 is the cheapest to rent, and it is a fine trainer. But I've flown many on the list, and they are all perfectly fine to learn to fly in. But why spend more money to learn that you have to? If you learn to fly in a Traveler (AA-5) you will probably get yelled at for riding the brakes too much in planes that don't have castering nosewheels.

 

[Silvaire]

Of the planes listed the 152 is probably the best suited for initial training. You're going to spend a lot of time just getting the basics of it, there's no good reason to spend extra money hauling around a couple of empty seats you don't need. The tailwheel thing is way over-hyped, it's not that big of a deal and finding one for rent for primary training is difficult. The 150/152 is a good little airplane that will teach you what you need to know initially and they've got real flaps, just like an airliner (ha,ha)

 

[Tantalum]

Welcome OP!
Great question

The author blamed cessnas

..Cessnas are truly awful planes, in every possible way. It's like learning to ride a bicycle on a Fischer Price Toys R Us tricycle and then wondering why your'e having trouble riding a real bike when you eventually move on from the 172. Do everything you humanly can to not get trapped flying a 172. They should all go the way of the skycatcher, thrown in a dumpster and crushed. Okay, with that mini rant aside.. my thoughts:

Grumman

YES!!!!!

Piper archer

A more realistic option if you're trying to rent and not buy. I know very few places that have Grummans for rent

**For real stick and rudder everyone is going to say "a taildragger!" .. but unless you buy one and find a competent CFI I honestly don't know how feasible this option is. Also, there's no reason someone can't get good stick and rudder skills in a 172, either. A lot of this comes down to good, competent instruction.

My advice, if you're looking to buy.. would be find a nice Grumman. They're forgiving enough to train in but also responsive and fast enough to have as a real plane. They're also a little more sensitive on the controls (in all axis, but especially yaw) than your typical PA28 and 172.. so they'll make you a good pilot and more keenly aware of "stick and rudder"

Otherwise, if you are just trying to rent.. the nice thing with a PA28-181 is that they're a great overall compromise of trainer and basic short-medium range personal plane. With wheel pants and a clean healthy plane you can get very decent cruise speeds and they're comfortable enough to take a friend or two (or 3). They're pretty stable and mundane on the controls so they're not the best stick and rudder plane.. but whatever, get a good CFI and that won't be an issue. People love the Bonanza for it's flight handling skills, and that's a comparatively "it lands itself" easy plane to fly.

 

[Arnold]

Short answer, yes - especially ground handling. Longer answer. Taildraggers tend to be older designs. Many of them don't have pilot work load easing features like differential aileron displacement, aileron rudder interconnects etc. that make the in flight parts easier. My airplane has massive adverse yaw. Most pilots I talk to forget they learned about that for their written exam. I get Lady Luscombe back from the IA tomorrow and he says the ailerons were slightly out of rig so I'll see if re-rigging made a big improvement.

Also I am to put it mildly a bit under powered at 65 hp. This makes all pitch control sins quite visible.

Update. Lady Luscombe flies the same as before. With four brand new cylinders the climb rate doubles, it's up to 400 fpm on a hot day but not "heavy." Cruise at just under red line for break in is right up at 100 mph.

 

[flyersfan31]

Update. Lady Luscombe flies the same as before. With four brand new cylinders the climb rate doubles, it's up to 400 fpm on a hot day but not "heavy." Cruise at just under red line for break in is right up at 100 mph.

Hmm that Lady Luscombe sounds like a mighty sweet bird!

I agree with Arnold. If you can train in a basic taildragger, do it. You will learn the fundamental flying skills far better than in,say, an Archer with rudder/aileron interconnects. It will be more challenging. May takelonger too, but operating costs in a Luscombe or Cub are minimal. Maybe not the fixed costs so much. Ask Arnold about that. But at any rate, you will never develop bad habits training in an old taildragger.

 

[Arnold]

Hmm that Lady Luscombe sounds like a mighty sweet bird!

I agree with Arnold. If you can train in a basic taildragger, do it. You will learn the fundamental flying skills far better than in,say, an Archer with rudder/aileron interconnects. It will be more challenging. May takelonger too, but operating costs in a Luscombe or Cub are minimal. Maybe not the fixed costs so much. Ask Arnold about that. But at any rate, you will never develop bad habits training in an old taildragger.

She gets sweeter with each AMU.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

But at any rate, you will never develop bad habits training in an old taildragger.

This X1000. However because this is an internet forum and threads tend to hang around for quite a while I think its only responsible to add the following. I am living proof that you can do all your primary training in a C150 and then transition to C172's and C182's and even a Mooney and then after that, learn to fly and get very proficient in tailwheels and still end up more or less in the same place as far as stick and rudder skills go.

If I had to do it over again, I would seek out a tailwheel aircraft to learn in no question. But at the same time, If I could not find a tailwheel aircraft to do my primary in, I would absolutely do it in any aircraft I could find and seek out tailwheel later.

Which is to say if the question is learn to fly in tailwheel or don't learn to fly at all, the answer is an emphatic learn to fly by any means necessary. If the question is keep flying nose draggers or learn to add tailwheel skills to the repertoire, the answer is an emphatic add tailwheel to your skill set.

 

[RonP]

A zillion opinions so here is a zillion +1.........

First hold off buying an airplane until you get time under your belt. It could cost you more or less in the long run. Lots of people start out and never finish. Some run out of money, life gets in the way or the road gets too hard. Nothing worse than your money tied up in an airplane sitting there and not being used. Plus until you have flown a particular type it is too early to know what you are comfortable in or what suits your needs.

Depending on how fast you master landing it can be pretty abusive to an airplane with bounces, thuds, etc. Better not putting your own airplane thru that. We all have done it and watched prospective pilots do it. I sometime cringe watching a student learning to land. I know personally my instructors have escaped a fiery death many times thanks to their fast hands, faster than an old west gun slinger, taking control quickly and saving the day.

There are many threads on a “surprise” for the first annual on an airplane that was purchased even though the logs look good. This is not to say the logs are intentionally deceiving but different A&Ps find different items, some dig further than others. Recently my airplane needed the mags serviced since they were close to 500 hours at annual so they were sent out. It took 2 months for the mag shop to get to them. Being dependent on your own airplane to learn in could result in a delay in your lessons. Then you may find yourself in the bad weather time when it is back in service. There are also threads regarding “should an annual take this long”. It happens and is out of your control.

After you get your ticket you can easily get checked out in different airplanes and take sides in the high wing / low wing debate yourself. I took lessons in a 152 then a 172 when a weight issue in the 152 with another instructor became an issue (my first instructor temporarily lost his medical due to a detached retina). Both are excellent aircraft with 152s cheaper to rent but limited on weight compared to a 172. After I passed my check ride I got checked out in a Warrior and Archer, no big deal and just 3 hours check out in each with an instructor. It gave me 4 different airplanes to rent which made my flying more available and I got to know what I liked and did not like about each.

My opinion is to get your ticket in an easy to fly trainer so the basics come easily. With a good basic foundation your training time will be less hours hence less money. With a good foundation overcoming more complex aircraft will be easier. Adding endorsements later for tailwheel, high performance and complex skills can be learned later as previously stated by others who moved to more challenging aircraft.

Pick a club or school that has more than 1 type of the aircraft you will be learning in. That way for example if one 152 is down there are other 152s available.

Enjoy your journey no matter what you chose to do. Every flight and lesson was a fun and magical time for me with lots of great memories. Like your first kiss from a pretty girl we all remember our first solo!

 

[Ryan F.]

The one which is affordable to you, well-maintained, available, with a good instructor sitting in the right seat.

 

[Daz]

I had this very conversation with my CFII during a recent commercial lesson. We concluded a tail dragged from a short field airport would probably result in the best stick and rudder flight skills.