Which Jet carrys, 8 pax, +1500nm for $2.4 mil?

Tony_Scarpelli

Tony_Scarpelli

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Tony_Scarpelli
I am helping a friend to learn and discover and plan a budget for his flight department within the next year.

He specifically asked about Citations and Hawkers but is not yet set on anything. These are just two choices he has locally.

He and his family (business managers) have the need to move freely between the KC and Boston Logan 12 times a year; Vegas 4 times a year and to Iowa 12 times a year from KC for a total estimated time of about 144 hrs. I've explained how buying smaller and renting for the full seat option could save money but he is leaning towards always having 8 seats.

He would like to find something for about $2.4 mil with reasonable fuel efficiency although he has no idea what to budget for it.

Because of his needs he feels 100% or 50% ownership is preferable to leasing, Netjets or other options. He would consider Netjets and other options if there is a very strong financial incentive to do so but he really has a preference for complete convenience and ownership. I suspect he wants to paint his jet the color of his favorite teams as he is a big sports fanatic.

He has worked hard and made a bit of money and now wanting to both maximize his time as well as pleasure/leisure.

What comes to mind are:

Citation
Hawker 400 XP
Piaggio Avanti I

He has a strong preference for two engines and anything that can maintain 400++ statue mph or faster might be considered. Would like to keep the KC-Boston Logan at about 3 hrs.

What do you guys think?

I'd like some guidelines to roughly calculate fixed and variable costs for any models proposed. Thanks.

I might be incorrect but I told him roughly that $100-150k a year fixed costs (insurance, taxes, hangar, annual par 91) not including maintenance, P&I on loan, Depreciation plus 160-200 gph at $6-9 per gallon of Jet fuel. I also said he was probably looking at $2500 per hour variable costs including reserves for engines, landing gear and such. He said he was quoted a Charter price of $5k but I told him that may not include pilot, per Diem, landing fees, fuel surcharges and such.

These are rough estimates on my part and I would appreciate any more accurate estimates.

What is the best way to handle the crew?
 
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Wayne's the man to talk to about this question, but I would definitely advise against a Piaggio. The 135 I used to fly for managed a Piaggio. While the interior was spectacular, they said the plane was junk. Lots of very expensive maintenance involved, and the low fuel burn didn't make up for the low performance.

Personally I'd be more interested in finding a G-III with hush kits, save about $1.5 mil on purchase price and just fly that. But there is probably a much more economical Citation or Falcon to consider.
 
WAYNE!!!! Your wheelhouse sir.
 
At 150hrs/year he will most likely find that airplane ownership will not be financially beneficial.

On that note, Jets are very cheap right now. 2.4M could get you a Lear 45/55/60, Hawker 800, Falcon 50...hell even a Challenger 601 or G3...not that they would be fuel efficient.

And for comparables a Lear 60 charters for 3200-3400 + fees and a Hawker 800/900 would be 3200-3500 + fees.
 
Used 727? 737-200ADV with hushkit?

Those fit the bill . . . and seat a a few more.
 
Tony, the jets are no different than the recips insofar as the number of seats vs. the number of people who can occupy them and stay within w&b limits. Boston is a long haul from the midwest. He could think about a nice Citation 650 on an engine program (that would cost less than $1.5 mil) and make the westbound trip non-stop ~90% of the time, if he's not traveling Dec-Mar. During those months the westerlies can easily top 140 kts on the nose, and a fuel stop is the only choice.

For trips of that length I think he'll want a stand-up cabin, as I've done it many times both ways and know that people want to be able to move around. If you watch passenger behavior when they're confined to a seat or a crawl-around cabin (Citation, King Air, etc) you'll see a definite pattern emerge that basically says "after 2.5 hours in this sumbitch, I want out of it for a while."
 
wabower said:
For trips of that length I think he'll want a stand-up cabin, as I've done it many times both ways and know that people want to be able to move around. If you watch passenger behavior when they're confined to a seat or a crawl-around cabin (Citation, King Air, etc) you'll see a definite pattern emerge that basically says "after 2.5 hours in this sumbitch, I want out of it for a while."
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Meanwhile, I'm looking at being couped up in the 310 for about 15 hours this Friday/Saturday.
 
Note that my remarks were limited to passengers, on the basis that they have a choice as to when and where they want to stop. The raggedy-ass crew, OTOH . . .

Ted DuPuis said:
Meanwhile, I'm looking at being couped up in the 310 for about 15 hours this Friday/Saturday.
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Wayne this is our same friend in KC that we visited last year. He was impressed with you.

He has outgrown the turbo prop club he got into after our visit.

His business has expanded into two or three growing businesses. He thinks he is 1 year away but was wondering what to budget for an annual flight department and about 50-60k miles a year. (keeping it Par 91).

Do you have a sample flight dept annual cost breakdown sheet? Mainly he wants to make spread sheets and know he hasn't overlooked some major expense.
 
Sure, he was a nice guy and I enjoyed visiting with him as well. When the missus and I were on the Plaza over Chirstmas we had breakfast at that same cafe and I reminded her of our trip.

I'm in the mountains for a couple of weeks but will provide whatever he needs.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Wayne this is our same friend in KC that we visited last year. He was impressed with you.

He has outgrown the turbo prop club he got into after our visit.

His business has expanded into two or three growing businesses. He thinks he is 1 year away but was wondering what to budget for an annual flight department and about 50-60k miles a year. (keeping it Par 91).

Do you have a sample flight dept annual cost breakdown sheet? Mainly he wants to make spread sheets and know he hasn't overlooked some major expense.
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wabower said:
Note that my remarks were limited to passengers, on the basis that they have a choice as to when and where they want to stop. The raggedy-ass crew, OTOH . . .
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Yeah, to spend that much time in the plane as a passenger is, without a doubt, less fun. It's just amusing to me to think about a trip of shorter distance in a plane that will do it much faster needs to be stand-up. But I don't even know well enough to cut my hair.

N747JB said:
But, you get to fly it instead of being stuck in the back eating and drinking!:D
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Hey, eating and drinking in back? That sounds like a good time! ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yeah, to spend that much time in the plane as a passenger is, without a doubt, less fun. It's just amusing to me to think about a trip of shorter distance in a plane that will do it much faster needs to be stand-up. But I don't even know well enough to cut my hair.



Hey, eating and drinking in back? That sounds like a good time! ;)
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Your pax can stand up, walk around, eat, drink, and other stuff.... That is, if you let them out of their cages!
 
I wouldn't be so quick to blow off the Piaggio. Those city pairs are not outside a Piaggios range. The Mx can cost more but when you break it all down a Piaggio costs about $1500 per hour to operate and that compares favourably with the other aircraft listed. Plus, the 5'10" cabin really is nice.

A Piaggio seats 8 (9 if single pilot) but like many planes you're not putting 8 adults with bags and filling the tanks.

Plus, with the Avantair situation there are going to be some fire sale deals on used Piaggios coming up.
 
silver-eagle said:
Your pax can stand up, walk around, eat, drink, and other stuff.... That is, if you let them out of their cages!
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Just like the airlines, I confine my passengers to their seats for the flight. ;)

Captain said:
I wouldn't be so quick to blow off the Piaggio. Those city pairs are not outside a Piaggios range. The Mx can cost more but when you break it all down a Piaggio costs about $1500 per hour to operate and that compares favourably with the other aircraft listed. Plus, the 5'10" cabin really is nice.

A Piaggio seats 8 (9 if single pilot) but like many planes you're not putting 8 adults with bags and filling the tanks.

Plus, with the Avantair situation there are going to be some fire sale deals on used Piaggios coming up.
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Of course you fly the thing, and most people who fly a plane end up saying "It's not so bad..." ;)

I heard similar from my comrades who flew the Piaggio. The more they told me about the plane, the more convinced I was I didn't like it. But that interior is very, very nice.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yeah, to spend that much time in the plane as a passenger is, without a doubt, less fun. It's just amusing to me to think about a trip of shorter distance in a plane that will do it much faster needs to be stand-up. But I don't even know well enough to cut my hair.



Hey, eating and drinking in back? That sounds like a good time! ;)
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Nah, eating and drinking in the back means you don't get to fly the plane! :mad2:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Of course you fly the thing, and most people who fly a plane end up saying "It's not so bad..." ;)

I heard similar from my comrades who flew the Piaggio. The more they told me about the plane, the more convinced I was I didn't like it. But that interior is very, very nice.
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So the guy with 4,000 hours flying a fleet of over 50 Piaggio's gets his opinion thrown out because he's 'biased' and the guy who heard about it somehow has a more valid opinion because his company 'operated one' and told him about it.

Okay.

BTW, $1500 per hour is the number (give or take).
 
Captain said:
So the guy with 4,000 hours flying a fleet over 50 Piaggio's gets his opinion thrown out because he's 'biased' and the guy who heard about it somehow has a more valid opinion because his company 'operated one' and told him about it.

Okay.

BTW, $1500 per hour is the number (give or take).
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Nope, wasn't saying I was throwing out your opinion, just giving you a hard time. Don't get worked up.

It's kinda like me saying that 310s are the best option for light 6-place twins. I'm pretty convinced I'm right, but I'm also biased.
 
denverpilot said:
Strippers. The King Air needs strippers. That'll fix it for a lot less than $2M.
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As Henning would say, "Give 'em hookers and blow." The inconvenience of head room will disappear pretty quick.
 
Wayne will have the definitive numbers, but anecdotally a friend manages his Citation XL for his company and budgets $2,300 per hour for overall operating costs based on about 200 hrs per year if I recall correctly. Then make sure you have the deep pockets for the occasional $40K-$100K surprises that occasionally pop up. Last year they dumped about $600K into a refurb with new interior, avionics upgrades and some engine updates.
 
$600K for interior, avionics and engine updates? Sounds VERY light to me for a Citation XL.
 
Depends on the scope of the job. We did a full interior in an Encore earlier this year for ~$120k, spent $70 updating the panel with Garmin 750 and moving RMU's to accommodate placement. Both of those upgrades are in the same ballpark as the XL. A number of engine upgrades are being performed on the older engines now that aren't all that expensive, at least until hots are due, along with a price-tag of half-mil plus.

Captain said:
$600K for interior, avionics and engine updates? Sounds VERY light to me for a Citation XL.
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denverpilot said:
Strippers. The King Air needs strippers. That'll fix it for a lot less than $2M.
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Nyahhh... they're no where near as interesting as Kimberly, N700CP, and the "pilot communication tube"
 
Actually a Hawker is pretty darn close to your spec. Very nice, less than 10 year old, 800XPs can be had for under $2.3Mil. They seat 8 and can do that with full fuel (10,000#). That will give you 5 hours flying with reserves at ~420 kts tas. Most are set up with aft lav, inside baggage space (front) and closet (rear), and a front entertainment center. The Garrett engines are very dependable and have about as low an MSP cost as any in this size range. There's a lot of Hawkers out there, so there are plenty of parts and many service centers to chose from.
Returned yesterday from a 9 day trip in one. Eight legs with the longest about 4 hours. They're not a bad way to go and should be on your list.
 
I'll be the first to admit I don't know diddly about operating a Hawker but they look bad ass on the ramp.

I wouldn't kick one out of bed if it ended up there. Wait. Um...
 
Captain said:
So the guy with 4,000 hours flying a fleet of over 50 Piaggio's gets his opinion thrown out because he's 'biased' and the guy who heard about it somehow has a more valid opinion because his company 'operated one' and told him about it.

Okay.

BTW, $1500 per hour is the number (give or take).
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Thank you, I will pass this information on.
 
Lance F said:
Actually a Hawker is pretty darn close to your spec. Very nice, less than 10 year old, 800XPs can be had for under $2.3Mil. They seat 8 and can do that with full fuel (10,000#). That will give you 5 hours flying with reserves at ~420 kts tas. Most are set up with aft lav, inside baggage space (front) and closet (rear), and a front entertainment center. The Garrett engines are very dependable and have about as low an MSP cost as any in this size range. There's a lot of Hawkers out there, so there are plenty of parts and many service centers to chose from.
Returned yesterday from a 9 day trip in one. Eight legs with the longest about 4 hours. They're not a bad way to go and should be on your list.
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Lance, I will forward your quote.
 
We have a couple of Westwind II's that fly into/out of DTN that are REALLY nice...less than most jets with 2+7 and 400+.

I only have passenger experience in KA300's, AC690's and CJ2's and have never flown in the Westwind but the interior IS comfy in comparison...

Chris
 
Sorry. Sold the burned-up Challenger a while ago. We may have a balled-up Premier available in a while. But I think that only used to seat seven.
 
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