Which airplane for this mission...?

ronnieh said:
Henning you may very well be right, I don't know. It just seems to me in my expereince that they will want some PIC time in general. It is difficult for me to believe but, you may be right that a new MEI (multi engine instrument) with perhaps 250 TT could get insured PIC solo in a 421 after 100 hours in the make and model. That would be 350 TT with 100 TT ME. Maybe, but I do not think it would be a safe bet. Would you put your wife and kids in the plane with 350 TT and 100 in the 421 or Citation?
You mention a 310 as a transition but remember the OP is going from student pilot to a 421. I just doubt it.
Tom not sure I follow you. Go to FSI for the initial in the 208 with the fresh PPL? I don't think FSI will give you the initial without being instrumented rated. Not sure.
Remember the OP is talking about going from a 100 hour student to a cross country 6 place airplane. I am not sure he is getting solid advice.:dunno:
Edit: I doubt Cessna would even have a conversation with the OP.
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And in reality, a 350 TT pilot would have a much better chance surviving an engine failure on departure in the Citation..

So, there's the answer..lol

Ronnie is eloquently pointing out the silliness of expecting a 100 hr student pilot to progress to a top of the line piston twin in a very short time. It just won't happen.

At least with something like a T206, Peter can work on his instrument rating while learning and gaining experience in type with someone qualified in the
right seat.

Then, keep flying it for another 100-200 hrs before loading up the family.
 
What about saving some cash? Send the Mrs to flight school and buy his and hers 182's?
 
ronnieh said:
Henning you may very well be right, I don't know. It just seems to me in my expereince that they will want some PIC time in general. It is difficult for me to believe but, you may be right that a new MEI (multi engine instrument) with perhaps 250 TT could get insured PIC solo in a 421 after 100 hours in the make and model. That would be 350 TT with 100 TT ME. Maybe, but I do not think it would be a safe bet. Would you put your wife and kids in the plane with 350 TT and 100 in the 421 or Citation?
You mention a 310 as a transition but remember the OP is going from student pilot to a 421. I just doubt it.
Tom not sure I follow you. Go to FSI for the initial in the 208 with the fresh PPL? I don't think FSI will give you the initial without being instrumented rated. Not sure.
Remember the OP is talking about going from a 100 hour student to a cross country 6 place airplane. I am not sure he is getting solid advice.:dunno:
Edit: I doubt Cessna would even have a conversation with the OP.
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He can get the multi rating and get PIC flying dual while having the CFI-ME who already has a couple hundred hours 310 & 421 time serves as the primary pilot of record with the insurance. IOW, this is HOW you get the PIC time in the airframe.

There is also the option of self insuring for 50 hrs.
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
And in reality, a 350 TT pilot would have a much better chance surviving an engine failure on departure in the Citation..

So, there's the answer..lol

.
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Yep, in one plane it's all asole and elbows while hoping for a positive climb rate, in the other it's a little rudder pressure and call for the checklist.
 
wabower said:
Yep, in one plane it's all asole and elbows while hoping for a positive climb rate, in the other it's a little rudder pressure and call for the checklist.
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Yep, but it comes at a high price. Lets say the Citations you can buy in at <$500k, what's the hourly going to be on one?
 
wabower said:
A prospective lessee should know is that Cessna finance and all other lessor/lenders will quickly tell you that the days of conventional leases (as we have known them in the past) are over, and that they will structure and characterize the deal as a lease if you want, but the payments and terms will be identical to those of a purchase.
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IOW, Cessna isn't going to let you a take a 208 to fly around the county for a month and then bring it back.
 
Fearless Tower said:
IOW, Cessna isn't going to let you a take a 208 to fly around the county for a month and then bring it back.
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No, lol, there are always minimums that will apply. You may get a balloon note to cover the money cost plus an hourly cost with minimums + engine program. It'll cost far more than $400 to run a Caravan.
 
As always a lot of thread drift. Let's go back to the OP and see if we can figure out the question. Peter may simply not know enough yet to know what he wants to know. So Peter, if you will allow me, let me ask the question you might be looking for help on.
I am a 100 hr. student pilot, soon to take my check ride. After my private check ride I intend to start my instrument training. My goal is to be able to take my family of six (approx 700 pounds plus luggage) on extended cross countrys. Perhaps 2- 500 mile legs in a day. I live on the west coast so it will entail some mountain flying. I have a purchase budget of $250K. What kind of aircraft might I be looking at and what kind of time frame to get into this aircraft?
Peter, this should get you some good info for you to filter through.
OK, now my oppinion: Any turbine is out of the picture so we will move on. I can not think of any pressurized piston twin that can be purchased for $250K unless it is a run out rag.
But, just in case your budget increased to $500K we will talk briefly about them. Basically you are talking about a P Barron or a 421. To be reasonably safe and insurable in one of these you will need at the VERY minimum 500 PIC, instrument rated and 100 hours make and model and of course initial sim school. I would prefer to see 1000 TT, 200 multi and 100 make and model. These are 210-220 knot airplanes with an estimated DOC (direct operating cost) of about $450/hr. This does not include insurance, hangar, yearly sim school and so on.
Dropping down to a $400K budget a cabin class non pressurized piston twin might work. The only plane that comes to mind right off is a PA31-350. Pilot requirements are similar to the above. With a little luck you might could keep the DOC on a Chieften below $400/hr. They have good room, carry a descent load. Most will hold 4.2 hours of fuel and allow close to 900 pounds in the cabin. LOTS of luggage room. Not very fast, 180 knots on a good day at 10,000 feet. However if you can deal with a tube in your nose they do quite well in the 13-15000 foot range. There are a lot of Chieftens out there, many with modern avionics and all that I have seen are FIKI.
OK, back to the $250K budget. Frankly we are now talking about Barrons, C310's, and Aztecs in the light twin market. In the interest of full disclosure, I don't fly in single engine airplanes. However, the first 3 minutes of flight in any light twin in the hands of an incompetent pilot is the most dangerous flying out there. These planes will kill you in about 5 seconds if not flown correctly. If flown correctly it might take 10 seconds to kill you. Many light twins have FIKI (flight into known icing). I am going to defer the details to others here on the light twin as far as DOC, and pilot requirements. The light twin offers little over the heavy single except for the second engine. Also more twins are FIKI and many have on board radar. You will of course be able to get into a heavy single before a twin. I do not think you will be ready this summer for your trips as described. This next year might be better used to build your skills with an eye toward your ultimate goal on the aircraft you think fits your needs.
To fly the trips you describe IMO would require at least the instrument rating of course, and perhaps 300TT with maybe at least 100 in make and model. It would be good if you could get an experienced pilot to make a few trips with you. Perhaps if your CFII will fly in weather and he is proficient in weather some of your training flights could count toward this. To me the trips you describe are more in the realm of cabin class twin. The kids need a potty, and for serious travel, I want boots (FIKI) and on board radar. No one plane is going to be perfect for all flights, you will be stuck because of weather more than you think. One other thing, I have heard just about every complaint out there from owners except the following two. Never heard an owner complain about their plane being too fast or having too much room.
I hope this helps a little.
 
The Chieftain is a good hauler but down here most of the time I'd end up flying it the same as I fly my 310, in VMC even if IFR. I find it no problem to file and go IFR and then transition to "Approach, like 20 left to stay visual" "Roger, clear to deviate at pilot discretion; report leaving visual conditions." They know why I don't want to go in the clouds and typically there won't be many if any people flying through in the 'no O2' altitudes.

Out west though it may very well be a good option. In his stated area of operations the weather systems allow him to pretty much always stay VFR, Very few IFR days out there and the Chieftain has the ability to get you through most of them if properly equipped. You may have to wait a few hours or couple days at worst, but you have the ability to fly out of the worst of it if it catches you.
 
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Kiloalphadriver said:
And in reality, a 350 TT pilot would have a much better chance surviving an engine failure on departure in the Citation..

So, there's the answer..lol

Ronnie is eloquently pointing out the silliness of expecting a 100 hr student pilot to progress to a top of the line piston twin in a very short time. It just won't happen.
At least with something like a T206, Peter can work on his instrument rating while learning and gaining experience in type with someone qualified in the
right seat.

Then, keep flying it for another 100-200 hrs before loading up the family.
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It doesn't have to happen quickly, you have year and 100 hrs to get it along with a FS course, that's why you hire a pro for a year. Granted it will take time and dedication at it, but none of these planes is any kind of monster, the 421 is actually kinder in ways than the 310.
 
Interesting to note that 90% of the advice is from the twin freaks whose choice of airplanes represents an inverse percentage of the fleet. What's wrong with this picture?
 
wabower said:
Interesting to note that 90% of the advice is from the twin freaks whose choice of airplanes represents an inverse percentage of the fleet. What's wrong with this picture?
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What single in his price range has the power to do what he wants to do, fly his family around the inter-mountain west? The 421B has good copies available for $250k and less. There's a reason I'm a 'twin freak' as well. It's saved me a lot of money in engines over the years (at least $125k in engines vs $1000 in low cost repairs) being able to do a precautionary shut down instead of running to destruction and still making a runway. I operate and insure for less than Lou Betti and his T-210.
 
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Peter, for your mission you need a turbocharger. Unfortuantely the PA32T setup is awful; overheats, cooke items in the nosebaggage bay, etc.

The Censsna 6 seat cabin is teeny in the way back and they have to climb over the #4 seat to get there, though the two front doors is of some help to a family-Dad.

The A36 TN is about what's left in a single, and for the Cascades, you really want Ice gear.

I ended up in a PA34-200T for Turbos, ice gear + cabin.

We do ski country regularly. 3x this season, in fact.
 
Henning said:
What single in his price range has the power to do what he wants to do, fly his family around the inter-mountain west? .
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Cherokee 6-300. will do his mission.

but it won't do it on a regular bases, weather weather weather.

Fedex & UPS fly the C-208 all over the region all winter. PT-6/650. hot props, hot windscreen, and boots.

no matter what the OP gets to do the mission, he won't do it on a "ANY DAY" bases with any thing less than a 208, and it won't be cheap.
 
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Tom-D said:
Cherokee 6-300. will do his mission.
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If he's and his family will be happy spending their time in the air rather than destination, that will be fine. His mission is not likely to foster that though. Unless they're a family of pilots, they are flying because it allows them the destinations in smaller doses. If he has $250k to buy in and can afford the operating budget, his best bet is a 421B. Here's a hint at operating cost, the 135 operators around here are around $750hr for a 421 last I looked and they are factoring in deadheading in that. I think if they have to fuel in the Bahamas there's a fuel surcharge.
 
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It's amazing how these threads get so far afield. The OP's post is exactly why GA is struggling, there are no really good answers to the scenario.

Dragging a CFI around the country, paying for hotel, food, salary, etc. is going to be very expensive by itself. It also creates a problem because now we need a 7 seat aircraft!!! That eliminates most all of the light twin options. Unless you guys are suggesting a 160 hour pilot with 10 Multi take his whole family on a cross country trip in an old twin by himself.

So the with CFI choices become a cabin class twin or a Caravan or a Citation or... That isn't even realistic IMO unless $80-100K per year for operations doesn't concern you.

Better to buy a simple good 6 seater single that the OP can get insurance on, do an IR in, and be able to take out on this trip. Forget about high speed, pressurization, etc.

206, Toga, etc.
 
Henning said:
If he's and his family will be happy spending their time in the air rather than destination, that will be fine. His mission is not likely to foster that though. Unless they're a family of pilots, they are flying because it allows them the destinations in smaller doses.
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"What's wrong with me?"
~ Cessna 172
 
PA-46 is an option. However, the $250K is not really an option, but if you partnered up with someone. The PA-46 will seat 6 smaller people and do your trips with no problems. Also, they are pressurized and can be flown around 17-22 GPH.
 
Henning said:
If he's and his family will be happy spending their time in the air rather than destination, that will be fine. His mission is not likely to foster that though. Unless they're a family of pilots, they are flying because it allows them the destinations in smaller doses.
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They are slow, but they will haul, but that isn't the primary concern, safety is.

Being based in SoCal, the first leg is getting over the tall rocks, in winter required an aircraft certified for known ice.

the only one that comes close is a 208. on lease.
 
Alexb2000 said:
It's amazing how these threads get so far afield. The OP's post is exactly why GA is struggling, there are no really good answers to the scenario.
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Exactly. There are good answers to any 3 or even 4 of the criteria, but not all of them, and in this age of smart phones and Leatherman tools, we expect that kind of functionality out of everything.

The only thing in life we can't buy is time, so it comes down to what do you want to spend your time doing, flying or what is at the destination you are flying to. That is the prime determinant after establishing budget.
 
Tracey said:
"What's wrong with me?"
~ Cessna 172
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You're a pilot, you enjoy the flying. Wait till you start hauling your kids 9 hrs each way on trips and see how they react after the third trip, you're not gonna go because the family hates it and the plane meant for creating family vacations becomes an expensive hangar queen.
 
Tom-D said:
They are slow, but they will haul, but that isn't the primary concern, safety is.

Being based in SoCal, the first leg is getting over the tall rocks, in winter required an aircraft certified for known ice.

the only one that comes close is a 208. on lease.
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I don't know where you get the idea that he can operate a 208 on his mission and budget. His circumstances are completely different from a commercial operator.
 
Henning said:
I don't know where you get the idea that he can operate a 208 on his mission and budget. His circumstances are completely different from a commercial operator.
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his mission is getting from point A to point B with 6 pax,
where do you get the idea he can do it on his budget anyway.
IFR over the high country in the winter isn't where I want my family in any piston twin.

We loose 3-5 aircraft every winter in this state alone, all are IFR with the proper equipment. So, what are you going to tell a 100 hour student ? This is a good Idea?

If I had to be there life or death, I'd be there in an easy to fly turbin aircraft that is certified known ice, and that aircraft will not be in his budget.

Don't get me wrong, the 208 isn't going to do it every day either.
 
The speed and time-required differential between the various GA planes is of little import when total travel time is calculated, especially when typical leg distances are included in the calculation. If three airplanes are running neck-and-neck in the selection analysis, speed could be a tie-breaker, but nothing more.

Henning said:
Exactly. There are good answers to any 3 or even 4 of the criteria, but not all of them, and in this age of smart phones and Leatherman tools, we expect that kind of functionality out of everything.

The only thing in life we can't buy is time, so it comes down to what do you want to spend your time doing, flying or what is at the destination you are flying to. That is the prime determinant after establishing budget.
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bbchien said:
I ended up in a PA34-200T for Turbos, ice gear + cabin.

We do ski country regularly. 3x this season, in fact.
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And I'll wager that you pick your weather vary vary carefully.

I've been in ICE, it's not a fun thing, in your twin if you have a de-ice boot system failure you are a dead man.
 
Wow. Thanks everyone for the advice so far. There's a lot of helpful stuff here and a lot to think about.

Fortunately for me, my family is very flexible. The kids are great, don't complain, and they already love road trips in the Chevy Suburban.

We home-school and waiting out weather at a destination before we can continue on is not a problem. Just gives us a couple more days to relax and enjoy whatever hotel/town we're at.

The wife and kids will enjoy occasional trips in the western states and if I have to wait a year to do the tour around the country so be it...no problem.

One thing I absolutely know...I love flying and I'm doing a lot of it and will continue to do a lot of it.

I'll probably do 50 hours minimum this month in the PA28-151 I'm renting for $140/hr just doing some pleasure flying, some cross-country time building, some flying for my business, and of course my IFR training.

At some point though, I'd like to have some of that money go toward a plane I own rather than just pure rent. And I thought it would be a good idea to own a plane that could fit the family.

Hence my original post.

Having read everything you've said so far, I'm a lot more educated, but still unsure what to do - guess I need to read everything again, keep flying and building time and experience, and talk to an insurance agent.

I have no idea what some of you are talking about with leasing. Are you talking about a similar situation to leasing a brand new automobile?

Maybe I should set my sights for number of seats and baggage capacity lower, get something more complex (like a used Mooney?) for my IFR training and pleasure/business flying and make the kids take turns flying with dad.

We'd have to take the Suburban if we all want to go somewhere together. So I guess I'd focus on making more money and get that Pilatus or whatever...

I'm so confused! LOL :confused:
 
Henning said:
What single in his price range has the power to do what he wants to do, fly his family around the inter-mountain west?
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T210 and all of those in its class.

The 421B has good copies available for $250k and less.
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And as Bock and others have noted, it's neither practical nor afforable and therefore irrelevant.

There's a reason I'm a 'twin freak' as well. It's saved me a lot of money in engines over the years (at least $125k in engines vs $1000 in low cost repairs) being able to do a precautionary shut down instead of running to destruction and still making a runway.
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Bullshlt. You're drawing bullseyes around the bullet holes.

I operate and insure for less than Lou Betti and his T-210.
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With his goofy partner, that might be true. For anybody else's T-210, including the ones I owned for 27 years, NFW.
 
jmp470 said:
PA-46 is an option. However, the $250K is not really an option, but if you partnered up with someone. The PA-46 will seat 6 smaller people and do your trips with no problems. Also, they are pressurized and can be flown around 17-22 GPH.
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As has been pointed out before in other similar threads, a PA-46 will have a much more difficult time hauling those loads and being within CG than a PA32.
 
I'm learning a lot just reading all these posts about various twin/turbines. One recurring theme is that a big twin is going to be too dangerous for a low-time pilot, and hard to insure for quite a while. It made me wonder, though, about a non-traditional twin like the Cessna 337? I think there are a few turbo'd versions out there, too, and the price is probably much more palatable than some of the other options thrown out here.

I don't know much about twins, admittedly, so I'm just wondering how the 337 might fit this mission? Is it more insurable and safer than a Baron for a new pilot?
 
bbchien said:
Peter, for your mission you need a turbocharger. Unfortuantely the PA32T setup is awful; overheats, cooke items in the nosebaggage bay, etc.
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So if he really needs a turbo charger.....then what is wrong with the 207 that was recommended on the first page of this thread?

The only downside I can think of is maybe speed, but hell, I'd money is a factor, he can't have everything.
 
dukeblue219 said:
I'm learning a lot just reading all these posts about various twin/turbines. One recurring theme is that a big twin is going to be too dangerous for a low-time pilot, and hard to insure for quite a while. It made me wonder, though, about a non-traditional twin like the Cessna 337? I think there are a few turbo'd versions out there, too, and the price is probably much more palatable than some of the other options thrown out here.

I don't know much about twins, admittedly, so I'm just wondering how the 337 might fit this mission? Is it more insurable and safer than a Baron for a new pilot?
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They aren't exactly free from problems either. If your family is good in a Suburban they'll be good in a Seneca II, the minimum plane I'd get for the job. You'll be insurable in 25hrs dual and doing your ME ride in the plane. If you're flying 20 hrs a month, call your insurer after 100 hrs and ask them to re-evaluate. You may get some money back lol. You can get FIKI cert, turbos and for the next few years you'll still be able to maintain 10% under gross for single engine options. With a $250k budget you can get a nicely equipped Seneca and even have money left over to upgrade and operate.
 
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Henning said:
I don't know where you get the idea that he can operate a 208 on his mission and budget. His circumstances are completely different from a commercial operator.
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I just flew a 208 the day before yesterday. I put .6 Hobbs on it. I flew over to another field, did a few touch and gos, came back. That's it. 35 Gal of Jet A. Jet A is about $6 so $210. I figure about 55 GPH block to block, or $330 just on fuel. I imagine all in operating cost are close to $1000 per hour for a non-commercial operator. I'm no Caravan operations expert, but I'll have to agree with Henning.
 
Henning said:
With a $250k budget you can get a nicely equipped Seneca and even have money left over to upgrade and operate.
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Or Ted's Aztec and it comes nicely equipped and you'll have PLENTY of money left over :wink2:... Am I pushing too hard? :lol:
 
Any comparison that includes a PA-46 must include similar fuel loads. When those adjustments are made, the PA-46 capabilities are much closer to other planes.
Fearless Tower said:
As has been pointed out before in other similar threads, a PA-46 will have a much more difficult time hauling those loads and being within CG than a PA32.
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Hang in there. If you tout it for a sufficient time, maybe you and Downey can collaborate and figure out how to put turbines on it and lease it from Cessna.
Mtns2Skies said:
Or Ted's Aztec and it comes nicely equipped and you'll have PLENTY of money left over :wink2:... Am I pushing too hard? :lol:
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Mtns2Skies said:
Or Ted's Aztec and it comes nicely equipped and you'll have PLENTY of money left over :wink2:... Am I pushing too hard? :lol:
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When you can put those doors on an Aztec I'll be hip. The only mission I'd have for an Aztec is as an MES.:D
 
Henning said:
When you can put those doors on an Aztec I'll be hip. The only mission I'd have for an Aztec is as an MES.:D
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Aztecs on floats look so unnatural! and yeah the second door that comes with the float STC is pretty nifty.
 
wabower said:
Hang in there. If you tout it for a sufficient time, maybe you and Downey can collaborate and figure out how to put turbines on it and lease it from Cessna.
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heh heh well I mean for a family hauler everyone NEEDS a turbine capable of fitting 10 people I mean its the only logical possibility. :rolleyes: :mad2:
 
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