When Minimum altitude on SID/STAR is too high for your cruise ALT

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John777

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I was doing my XC planning practice and I usually plan out in the order of departure segment, arrival and then enroute.

I picked up a SID and STAR but there were cross limit at one waypoint that says "EXPECT 11000"
I know that the expect does not mean you will be expected to cross at 11000 at all but planning-wisely, I am not sure if I can still plan with SID STAR that has higher crossing limitation, especially for CE172S.

11000ft does not sound like a minimum altitude on the chart but I am not sure if ATC will take my cruise altitude(5000ft) into account and clear me via lower altitude.

John.
 
It would help if you could specify which SID and STAR you were talking about, so we could look up the charts.
 
Thank you sir.

It is KJAX SAWGY Depature SID.
 
I've looked at the chart, but I'm not sure what the answer is.
 
The SID says to maintain 3000 and expect your requested cruising altitude 10 minutes after departure. Assuming nothing in my clearance that changed anything in the SID:

If I filed for 5000' i would expect an instruction to 5000 within 10 minutes after departure, not be sent up to 12,000.

OTOH, if I filed for, say, 16,000, I would expect to hear an instruction to cross SAWGY at or above 12,000.

And there's nothing that says ATC can't change everything it says, since it's just a canned set of ATC instructions, and of course your requested altitude and capabilities if your aircraft are taken into consideration.
 
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Most of the time the "EXPECT" thing is a lost comm thing. Almost every departure clearance (either spelled out in a SID like this or just one given out verbally) says expect (filed altitude) ten minutes after departure. Usually, you get it as soon as you get radar contact.

In this case, this is one actually is telling you what to expect from ATC in the future. Note that it is not EXPECT 12000. It is EXPECT AT LEAST 12000. I'd certainly NOT use this departure procedure if I couldn't accept 12000 or more.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The SID says to maintain 3000 and expect your requested cruising altitude 10 minutes after departure. Assuming nothing in my clearance that changed anything in the SID:

If I filed for 5000' i would expect an instruction to 5000 within 10 minutes after departure, not be sent up to 12,000.

OTOH, if I filed for, say, 16,000, I would expect to hear an instruction to cross SAWGY at or above 12,000.

And there's nothing that says ATC can't change everything it says, since it's just a canned set of ATC instructions, and of course your requested altitude and capabilities if your aircraft are taken into consideration.
Click to expand...

This. Key is "expect clearance to requested altitude", in your case would be 5000' as midlifeflyer states. An airliner and/or corporate jet departing JAX would get something different than you as they're most likely filed for an altitude in the FLs.
 
Except it also says expect Swagy at or above 12000. I suspect a skyhawk that filed for 5000 shouldn't be issued a clearance. I suspect he's most likely to get the JAX 6 departure.
 
flyingron said:
Except it also says expect Swagy at or above 12000. I suspect a skyhawk that filed for 5000 shouldn't be issued a clearance. I suspect he's most likely to get the JAX 6 departure.
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I doubt he'll get the JAX6 because of the note that says that the procedure is NA for aircraft filed below 10,000.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I doubt he'll get the JAX6 because of the note that says that the procedure is NA for aircraft filed below 10,000.
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Exactly. You need to look at the notes and see if the procedure is even applicable.

These days, it is getting harder and harder to find Arrival and Departure procedures that are applicable to piston folks. There are many airports with 8 or more procedures ad every single one is Turbojet/Turboprop only.
 
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flyingron said:
Most of the time the "EXPECT" thing is a lost comm thing. Almost every departure clearance (either spelled out in a SID like this or just one given out verbally) says expect (filed altitude) ten minutes after departure. Usually, you get it as soon as you get radar contact.

In this case, this is one actually is telling you what to expect from ATC in the future. Note that it is not EXPECT 12000. It is EXPECT AT LEAST 12000. I'd certainly NOT use this departure procedure if I couldn't accept 12000 or more.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your time sir.
So if you get lost comm on SAWGY TWO DEPARTURE, then, we need to take that EXPECT 11000ft into account for altittude consideration?
 
Aren't these questions better suited to the "Cleared for the Approach" subforum? John777's started 14 threads in the past 2 weeks about mostly technical IFR flying.
 
You should first take into account what clearance you received.
If you filed for 5, they aren't going to send you to 12 unless they pre-warned you of that.
Just follow AVEC ---
Assigned
Vectored
expected
Cleared
 
This is more fundamental stuff your ground school and CFII should have covered. Flight instruction by Internet is a poor substitute.
 
flyingron said:
Except it also says expect Swagy at or above 12000. I suspect a skyhawk that filed for 5000 shouldn't be issued a clearance. I suspect he's most likely to get the JAX 6 departure.
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I thought I accounted for that. If I was issued that STAR with a filed cruising altitude of 5,000, I wouldn't worry about it. I would "except" the clearance to say something about that 12,000 not counting, maybe even if it's just ATC stating "expect 5,000 10 minutes after departure" instead of relying on the unmodified STAR (which I find to be pretty common). If I had any doubt at all, I'd just query.

Kind of the same as dealing with SID MEAs that aren't really MEAs.
 
John777 said:
I was doing my XC planning practice and I usually plan out in the order of departure segment, arrival and then enroute.

I picked up a SID and STAR but there were cross limit at one waypoint that says "EXPECT 11000"
I know that the expect does not mean you will be expected to cross at 11000 at all but planning-wisely, I am not sure if I can still plan with SID STAR that has higher crossing limitation, especially for CE172S.

11000ft does not sound like a minimum altitude on the chart but I am not sure if ATC will take my cruise altitude(5000ft) into account and clear me via lower altitude.

John.
Click to expand...

Chances are you did not read the entire chart plate. Somewhere on that chart you are highly likely to find that the procedure is intended for turbojet or turboprop aircraft.
 
Doggtyred said:
Chances are you did not read the entire chart plate. Somewhere on that chart you are highly likely to find that the procedure is intended for turbojet or turboprop aircraft.
Click to expand...
He provided the specific approach. Where did you see the note when you read the entire chart plate?

OTOH, the OP does say 11,000 when the chart says 12,000.
 
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