When is oil stable after a TOH?

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Michele

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Michele
Have 33 hrs on a Lycoming 320-d TOH. Have been told break-in is complete after oil consumption stabilizes.

Started out with 8 qts mineral at 0-hrs
About 7.5 hrs, added 1 qt oil
At 12.5 hrs did oil change, compression check-all well
About 10 hrs later added another quart
Looks like I might need another quart in a couple more hours...maybe that's 10 hrs after the last added quart.

How many hours should I be getting on the oil for it to be considered stabilized? Right now, it looks like I'm getting 10+ hrs on a quart.

Thanks!
 
When the consumption stops changing, consumption is stabilized. You didn't say how much oil the engine used between when you added a quart at 7.5 hours and when you changed the oil at 12.5 hours. However, you indicate that it used 1 quart in the next 10 hours and is on track to use 1 quart in the 10 hours since the last quart was added. Sounds to me like consumption has stabilized and you can now shift from straight mineral to ashless dispersant. The only other thing to check would be if CHT and oil temps have also dropped from the usual higher levels during break-in to their expected normal levels.
 
Thanks Cap'n. I'm not sure what the consumption was between 7 and 12.5--I have that written in my data book at the hanger. CHTs have dropped and when running at 75% power below 5,000' they are between 365-390. Climb out CHTs have dropped dramatically and while are about 430+ (climb out), once at cruise drop below 400 much sooner than earlier in the process. Earlier in the process, CHT could take 15-30 min at cruise to drop to low 400s and then hover there in the 398 range (at least one cyl, cyl#3. Now, all 4 get below 400 in about 10 min or less. And when at 65% power, CHTs are in the 350-370 range. Lower power settings (50-55% power) produce CHTs even lower numbers.
 
Michele said:
Have 33 hrs on a Lycoming 320-d TOH. Have been told break-in is complete after oil consumption stabilizes.

Started out with 8 qts mineral at 0-hrs
About 7.5 hrs, added 1 qt oil
At 12.5 hrs did oil change, compression check-all well
About 10 hrs later added another quart
Looks like I might need another quart in a couple more hours...maybe that's 10 hrs after the last added quart.

How many hours should I be getting on the oil for it to be considered stabilized? Right now, it looks like I'm getting 10+ hrs on a quart.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
What cylinders were used ?
 
Tom-D said:
What cylinders were used ?
Click to expand...
Lycoming cylinders were used.

Jaybird180 said:
Aren't engines to be run at high power settings during break-in?

Second, may wish to consider this advice when deciding when to switch:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/am/categories/bga/The-Mineral-Oil-Myth_564.html
Click to expand...
Thank you for the interesting article. It's pretty much correct in that Lycoming and my a/p opt for the mineral oil. I understand how some things become aviation law that might be best done differently. For example, leaning on the ground, etc. In this case, since my break-in is well underway, I think I'll stick with what we're doing now. I'm just anxious to get pass the break in so I can fly the way I want to fly; various maneuvers, con't ifr lessons, fly at much higher altitudes, etc.
 
Mineral oil is an inferior lubricant... The only 'break in' it promotes is enhanced wear of every moving part in the engine from oil pump gears to wrist pins...
As far as seating the rings, nothing can stop that process (ignoring chrome cylinders) so long as you maintain adequate cylinder pressures during the first few hours while the mountain tops are being sheared off...
So, while you are supposedly seating the rings with the mineral oil you are wearing a thousand hours off the rest of the engine parts...

I overhauled an IO-520D 300 hp on my super viking, with Lycoming bearings, ECI Titan cylinders, and moly rings.. At the time I was the sole distributor for BELRAY AERO-1 synthetic oil... I filled the engine with that (over the quivering, palpitating, hand-wringing, mechanics objections) and took off... By 35 minutes the moly rings had seated as evidenced by a sharp decline in head temperature... I changed the filter at 10 hours and left the oil in until the scheduled 50 hour change... From that point I changed the filter every 50 hours and the oil every 100 hours... I put 930 hours on that engine and it was running like sewing machine when I sold the Viking to build a house without having to take out a mortgage...

I have field overhauled both engines on Fat Albert over the past 3 years... Each time the mechanic filled the engine with the ECI required oil (which is now 20W50) and each time I took the plane back to my hangar, drained the oil, and refilled with 15W50... Both engines appear to be perfect at 100 and 300 hours respectively...

My story and I'm sticking to it... ymmv...

Here is ECI's recommendation (not that I pay any attention)
http://www.eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf

And, any CHT over 400 degrees is too darn hot... Pull that throttle back and your engine will thank you by going over TBO...
 
Dr. O said:
And, any CHT over 400 degrees is too darn hot... Pull that throttle back and your engine will thank you by going over TBO...
Click to expand...
CHT over 400 is a bigger concern in Denny's Continental than in Michele's Lycoming because redline on Continentals is usually much lower than Lycoming (420 vs 500).

As for Denny's comments on straight mineral oil, the industry doesn't seem as certain of them as he does. In any event, the most important thing in that regards is to use only an oil of which the shop that did the overhaul approves, lest you void their warranty. The shop's vested interest in your engine's health should drive them to recommend/require only something they know works well.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Aren't engines to be run at high power settings during break-in?
Click to expand...

How long does require to break in a cylinder?

Answer, depends upon who made the cylinder, ECI Titan will be seated and running as they should in 5 minutes after throttle up at take off.
 
Dr. O said:
Mineral oil is an inferior lubricant... The only 'break in' it promotes is enhanced wear of every moving part in the engine from oil pump gears to wrist pins...
As far as seating the rings, nothing can stop that process (ignoring chrome cylinders) so long as you maintain adequate cylinder pressures during the first few hours while the mountain tops are being sheared off...
So, while you are supposedly seating the rings with the mineral oil you are wearing a thousand hours off the rest of the engine parts...

I overhauled an IO-520D 300 hp on my super viking, with Lycoming bearings, ECI Titan cylinders, and moly rings.. At the time I was the sole distributor for BELRAY AERO-1 synthetic oil... I filled the engine with that (over the quivering, palpitating, hand-wringing, mechanics objections) and took off... By 35 minutes the moly rings had seated as evidenced by a sharp decline in head temperature... I changed the filter at 10 hours and left the oil in until the scheduled 50 hour change... From that point I changed the filter every 50 hours and the oil every 100 hours... I put 930 hours on that engine and it was running like sewing machine when I sold the Viking to build a house without having to take out a mortgage...

I have field overhauled both engines on Fat Albert over the past 3 years... Each time the mechanic filled the engine with the ECI required oil (which is now 20W50) and each time I took the plane back to my hangar, drained the oil, and refilled with 15W50... Both engines appear to be perfect at 100 and 300 hours respectively...

My story and I'm sticking to it... ymmv...

Here is ECI's recommendation (not that I pay any attention)
http://www.eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf

And, any CHT over 400 degrees is too darn hot... Pull that throttle back and your engine will thank you by going over TBO...
Click to expand...

All aviation oils are blended from the same stock, thus they all have the same lubrication quality. The "M" oils simply don't have the additive package that gives the multi and or the D qualities.

when you removed the Phillips and added the 15-W-50 all you did was over does the engine additives you do not need.

I have 3 airboat engines (0-200) that I built way back in the 60s that are still running fine on 25W50 Quakerstate synthetics. they all show less than 1 quart in 50 hours of oil consumption.
 
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Ron Levy said:
As for Denny's comments on straight mineral oil, the industry doesn't seem as certain of them as he does. In any event, the most important thing in that regards is to use only an oil of which the shop that did the overhaul approves, lest you void their warranty. The shop's vested interest in your engine's health should drive them to recommend/require only something they know works well.
Click to expand...
I wished that theory always worked, there are mechanics out there that will not believe they can run 20-W-50 phillips from day one to TBO. the Dr is a prime example.
 
Tom-D said:
I wished that theory always worked, there are mechanics out there that will not believe they can run 20-W-50 phillips from day one to TBO.
Click to expand...
Perhaps so, but you won't hurt your engine by not using Phillips X/C 20W50 during break-in, and if the shop only wants to warrantee its work if you only use straight mineral oil, I can live with that.
 
You were done at the beginning, your rings were seated on the initial run up oil leak check your mechanic did. You are fine. If you are filling your oil full, consider keeping it serviced at 2 quarts low; 6qts in an 8 quart marked stick plane for example.
 
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Henning said:
You were done at the beginning, your rungs were seated I the initial run up oil leak check your mechanic did. You are fined. If you are filling your oil ful, consider keeping it served 2 quarts low; 6qts in an 8 quart plane.
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Henning, have you been drinking and posting again? :rolleyes:
 
Ron Levy said:
Perhaps so, but you won't hurt your engine by not using Phillips X/C 20W50 during break-in, and if the shop only wants to warrantee its work if you only use straight mineral oil, I can live with that.
Click to expand...
Yes you will, we've debated this before. Almost every Continental out there has a friction clutch starter assembly, and Lycoming even says not to put any oil containing their snake oil in their engines that have friction clutches.

ECI will void their warrantee when you do not follow their instructions.

It's your money, throw it away if you like.

http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1409C.pdf

Read and heed, Smart owners and mechanics don't put that crap in a Continental.
 
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Tom-D said:
Yes you will, we've debated this before. Almost every Continental out there has a friction clutch starter assembly, and Lycoming even says not to put any oil containing their snake oil in their engines that have friction clutches.
Click to expand...
If you're referring to Lycoming's LW-16072 anti-scuffing additive, it's not in straight mineral oil, and what you don't use can't hurt you.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're referring to Lycoming's LW-16072 anti-scuffing additive, it's not in straight mineral oil, and what you don't use can't hurt you.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Ron Levy
Perhaps so, butyou won't hurt your engine by not using Phillips X/C 20W50 during break-in,


your quote, is what I disagree with.

You can harm the engine by not using Phillips 20-W-50. any oil that complies with the lycoming AD is a EP oil. and will not allow proper break-in. the "M" oils will not provide the "D" qualities that is required in engines with filtration during the break-in period.
 
Hmmm, a whole bunch of technical papers come to mind (I was in the oil business for some years)... But, I'll let that slide and make a couple of observations..

20W50 is not a bad oil and it will allow your engine to make TBO under good circumstances... It's just not as good an oil as can be had for the not so good circumstances...

Michele will go along with her mechanic because she needs the warranty support - and she will be fine - other than a higher wear rate with the MO...

These are air cooled engines and as such put severe stresses on the oil ... Notice that there is not a single motorcycle racing team that uses a petroleum base oil anymore... Do you think there is a reason?

When I was dealing Bel-Ray I was a small part of that change over in the early days of synthetic oil... I would challenge them to put in fresh oil, start the bike and let it idle and notice the tach reading... Then drain it, put in Bel-Ray (supplied by me for free) and start the bike and notice the tach reading... The increased idle speed sold cases of the oil then and there... I did the same challenge with my airplane customers and had the same result...

That challenge came from my personal airplane where I put Aero-1 in and on the first flight noted during landing that the idle speed was almost 200 rpm high and I had to ride the brakes hard to get stopped... The mechanic adjusted the idle and everything was normal... The light bulb did not go on at that time... At 50 hours on that oil change I did not have 12 quarts of Aero-1 on hand (Bel Ray was sold out when I called) so I put in xxxx (nameless to protect me from their lawyers)... On the first flight the engine quit on short final just as I crossed the fence (scared the livin gizzard out of me)... Started it up and as I taxied in it kept wanting to quit when I closed the throttle... So, I had the mechanic adjust the idle again... Still no light in my dim bulb

50 hours later I had Aero-1 back on hand and changed it... When I started up to taxi out I had to ride the brakes to keep from going too fast... Then the light bulb went on.. The next day I cut a deal with Bel Ray to be the exclusive supplier for the Great Lakes...
When Mobil-1 had the sludging problem with high altitude turbo charged engines, the president of Bel Ray called me and said he was not going to make any more airplane oil as he did not have the financial depth to withstand big lawsuits, so that ended my oil distributor career.. I did have a bunch of cases on hand and flew my airplanes on it for a decade after that before I ran out... I have 1 qt of AERO-1 on the shelf as a keepsake... 15W50 is as close as I can come anymore...
 
The Old Wives Tale of needing a "M" oil during break-in has been debunked many times, it started way back in the days of no filtration on engines and rough honing the cylinders to allow the oil to be allowed to enter the hone marks and lubricate the rings during the break-in period.

In todays manufacturing processes ALL manufacturers finish hone with a very fine stone that leaves a nearly polished finish. These cylinders will break-in almost immediately after first start.

we are no longer dealing with cast iron cylinders, todays process are much harder Ni-Chrom, Cerminil, and several others will not act the same as the cast iron that were used when the old wives tale started.

If the engine was run on a tested on a test cell as required by 43.2, and tested IAW the manufacturers overhaul manual, your engine break-in period was completed on the cell, and you do not have any period of mineral oil to worry about.

the pictures below are of the new process used today. note they are nearly polished very fine cross hatching.
 

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Tom-D said:
Originally Posted by Ron Levy
Perhaps so, butyou won't hurt your engine by not using Phillips X/C 20W50 during break-in,


your quote, is what I disagree with.

You can harm the engine by not using Phillips 20-W-50. any oil that complies with the lycoming AD is a EP oil. and will not allow proper break-in. the "M" oils will not provide the "D" qualities that is required in engines with filtration during the break-in period.
Click to expand...
Tom, you are so far out in left field you're out on Camden Street.
 
Tom-D said:
The Old Wives Tale of needing a "M" oil during break-in has been debunked many times, it started way back in the days of no filtration on engines and rough honing the cylinders to allow the oil to be allowed to enter the hone marks and lubricate the rings during the break-in period.

In todays manufacturing processes ALL manufacturers finish hone with a very fine stone that leaves a nearly polished finish. These cylinders will break-in almost immediately after first start.

we are no longer dealing with cast iron cylinders, todays process are much harder Ni-Chrom, Cerminil, and several others will not act the same as the cast iron that were used when the old wives tale started.

If the engine was run on a tested on a test cell as required by 43.2, and tested IAW the manufacturers overhaul manual, your engine break-in period was completed on the cell, and you do not have any period of mineral oil to worry about.

the pictures below are of the new process used today. note they are nearly polished very fine cross hatching.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the pics, I wondered what the cross hatching looked like.
And the M oil discussion is well noted. I'll bring this up to the a/p when next we meet.

To everyone, Thanks for the comments!
 
I've read many strong opinions about what kinds of oils are necessary/better/best for aircraft engines. There is a theory/opinion for everyone. Lots of anecdotal evidence, very little conclusive comparative data.

Every cylinder I have EVER broken in, channel chrome, cermichrome, steel, nitrided steel...was run on mineral oil first 10 hours then switched to single or multi weight semi synthetic after that, as per warranty instructions, more or less. Oil consumption declined after the first hour, indicating break-in. Cylinders go the distance. The channel chrome cylinders used a bit more oil than the steel they replaced. That's about it. If it ain't broke...
 
Ron Levy said:
Tom, you are so far out in left field you're out on Camden Street.
Click to expand...

I so happy that you are the oil expert, prove me wrong.

I prefer to believe ECI's research than your belief in the oil producers advertising.

When you get some skin in the engine building game and standing behind what you build let us know.
 
chemgeek said:
I've read many strong opinions about what kinds of oils are necessary/better/best for aircraft engines. There is a theory/opinion for everyone. Lots of anecdotal evidence, very little conclusive comparative data.

Every cylinder I have EVER broken in, channel chrome, cermichrome, steel, nitrided steel...was run on mineral oil first 10 hours then switched to single or multi weight semi synthetic after that, as per warranty instructions, more or less. Oil consumption declined after the first hour, indicating break-in. Cylinders go the distance. The channel chrome cylinders used a bit more oil than the steel they replaced. That's about it. If it ain't broke...
Click to expand...

If your engine has filtration would you rather have the crud in the filter or the sump?
Phillips 20-W-50 is not an EP oil, it will not stop the break in process, it will carry the crud to the oil filter. "M" oils will not.
same oil stocks, same lubrication properties, the only difference is phillips has a Dispersant additive, and it's multi weight.
Understand the terms,
http://www.eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf

Pictures are of a sump removed during overhaul.
nice load of sludge, should have been in the filter.
 

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From the link above


Lubrication for Run‐in and Break‐in
NOTE: The following information applies to all types of cylinder bores:
STEEL/CAST IRON ‐ Plain, nitrided, through hardened
CHROME ‐ Porous, silicon carbide impregnated
NICKEL COMPOSITE ‐ CermiNilTM process or Nickel+CarbideTM
The lubrication demands imposed upon your engine during run‐in and break‐in period are different from its operational needs.
During run‐in and break‐in your lubricant should:
1. Provide immediate oil flow and pressure for start‐up protection.
2. Provide protection against extreme temperature changes.
3. Eliminate oil related by‐product deposits.
4. Suspend contaminants.
5. Enhance the engine's break‐in processes.
Phillips SAE20W‐50 multi‐viscosity oil provides quick lubrication for improved start‐up with the SAE20W low temperature viscosity. All multi grade oils lubricate
three times faster than straight weight, yet its full bodied SAE 50 viscosity will
completely protect the engine at high temperatures and operational loads. The
ashless dispersant (AD) in this oil keeps your engine's lubrication system free from
oil related contaminants. The dispersant additive further enhances the system by
suspending contaminants and operational wear metals in solution rather than
allowing them to settle to the bottom of your crankcase forming harmful engine
sludge. Finally this 100% mineral product will enhance the mating of all the parts involved in systems requiring operational wear‐in.
For your convenience and future reference we recommend the following lubrication schedule (Without filter reduce intervals to 25 hours or 3 months whichever comes first):

Hours on Overhaul
Description

Lubrication Package
0
Initial fill‐up
Phillips X/C SAE 20W50
10
Change Oil and Filter
Phillips X/C SAE 20W‐50
35
Change Oil and Filter
Phillips X/C SAE 20W‐50
60
Change Oil and Filter
Phillips X/C SAE 20W‐50

Every 50 Hrs. or 3 Months
Change Oil and Filter
Phillips X/C SAE 20W‐50 is recommended.
NOTE: Should you ever need to change out a cylinder you will not need to switch to a mineral oil for break‐in. Since Phillips X/C20W‐50 is 100% mineral it will ensure the break‐in process for newly installed cylinder(s).
 
I've finished arguing oil with people. I just buy the Phillips 20-50 by the case, cost premium isn't a killer and I like multi weight oils since I travel and may overnight In a cold place. I use Camguard because I know something is needed and I trust Ed Kollins is delivering it, simple as that. The multi vis oil he recommends is Phillips. Considering I used Aeroshell 15-50 in my Travelair for 1200hrs and had to do a set of camshafts, I figured I'd give Ed's advice a shot on this set of engines.
 
Henning said:
I've finished arguing oil with people. I just buy the Phillips 20-50 by the case, cost premium isn't a killer and I like multi weight oils since I travel and may overnight In a cold place. I use Camguard because I know something is needed and I trust Ed Kollins is delivering it, simple as that. The multi vis oil he recommends is Phillips. Considering I used Aeroshell 15-50 in my Travelair for 1200hrs and had to do a set of camshafts, I figured I'd give Ed's advice a shot on this set of engines.
Click to expand...
I've learned a lot from "Ed's" writings.

here is lycomings service letter on break-in oils.

http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1014M.pdf

Note Lycoming still recommends that the "M" oils be used during break-in, I've questioned their reps. at several trade shows and the answer I get is, they do not want the owner or mechanics using any oil that meets the Extreme Pressure (EP) oil requirements. they simply don't trust the people in the field to know the difference.
 
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I have never seen such smooth cylinder hone as the pics posted above.

Twice I had the engine honed (in 10 years) and both times the hone was much coarser.

The oil consumption took some tens of hours to stabilise. In fact I was getting excessively oily plugs for nearly 100 hours, on the last one.

The real cost of breaking in was having to fly at a high power setting during that time, to avoid glazing the cylinders.
 
peter-h said:
I have never seen such smooth cylinder hone as the pics posted above.

Twice I had the engine honed (in 10 years) and both times the hone was much coarser.

The oil consumption took some tens of hours to stabilise. In fact I was getting excessively oily plugs for nearly 100 hours, on the last one.

The real cost of breaking in was having to fly at a high power setting during that time, to avoid glazing the cylinders.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the problem with the UK, they refuse to give up on stodgy traditions for things that work.:lol:

Glazing the cylinders comes from trying to break them in hot and over rich, not from the level of power. Most every car engine gets broken in at power settings less than 20% and in a manner that according to theories espoused here will assure the early demise of any engine, and that includes the few air cooled auto engines as well.
 
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Henning said:
Yeah, that's the problem with the UK, they refuse to give up on stodgy traditions for things that work.:lol:

Glazing the cylinders comes from trying to break them in hot and over rich, not from the level of power. Most every car engine gets broken in at power settings less than 20% and in a manner that according to theories espoused here will assure the early demise of any engine, and that includes the few air cooled auto engines as well.
Click to expand...

I don't want you to be flying around at low RPM either. I tell my customers no RPM lower than 2450 for the first 5 hours.
The last 0-200 I overhauled and placed in service, the owner told me his CHT had dropped before 5 hours and the engine did not use any oil during that period. running as lean as it will run with ECI titan cylinders with 20W50 phillips.
 
At 2450 I cannot make more than 75% power either. RPM is just one side of the power equation as well. It's the fuel side of the equation that brings the damaging heat into play. I personally break in engines at moderate speed (none of our aircraft engines do more than that at full RPM)/low to moderate load conditions where the engine is just coming on the pipe. This gives me the best mechanical lapping action at the lowest stress points until everything is riding as smoothly as it's gonna do. That's when I start cranking in the power and seeing what I get out of it. Thing that most people don't realize is that with modern materials and machining processes this entire procedure is covered in 20 minutes or less.

The only real art left to it is getting the dwell of the bore to match out straight at your primary operating CHT.
 
Tom-D said:
I don't want you to be flying around at low RPM either. I tell my customers no RPM lower than 2450 for the first 5 hours.
The last 0-200 I overhauled and placed in service, the owner told me his CHT had dropped before 5 hours and the engine did not use any oil during that period. running as lean as it will run with ECI titan cylinders with 20W50 phillips.
Click to expand...

What about us who's engines cannot operate at 2450:stirpot:

:wink2:
 
So, a question for the group:

Can we ever just be polite and answer an O.P.'s question?

Or

Must we turn every simple question into an (off topic) aviation gods' pizzing contest?

Rhetorical questions and why I rarely seek information here.
 
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Jf1450 said:
What he said. ^
Click to expand...

As true to form for this forum, we react to the thread creep. good, bad or indifferent, that's the way it as always been here at the blue boards.
 
timwinters said:
So, a question for the group:

Can we ever just be polite and answer an O.P.'s question?

Or

Must we turn every simple question into an (off topic) aviation gods' pizzing contest?

Rhetorical questions and why I rarely seek information here.
Click to expand...

I thought the question got answered in the first couple of posts.

Then a discussion on the merits of straight M oil for break-in, as opposed to AD oil, ensued.
Not much creep, as it started out about oil.
 
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