When is it time????

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Lumpy Landings

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Lumpy Landings
When is it time to pull the plug on training?

I'm starting to think I'm just too old (I'm 60) and too uncoordinated to fly. After 43 hours, including 23 flying the traffic pattern I'm just starting to have some "ok" landings...I'm not always on the centerline, and I don't always have a stabilized approach...the times when I know I'm off I know to do a go around. My pattern work isn't stellar either, I'm off sometimes and when I turn (right hand patterns seem to be more difficult for me) I'm not always parallel to the runway. I seem to have difficulty in the wind (which is nearly 100% of the time here in New England now). I can get a bit thrown off when ATC gives more than standard requests. At this point I know I'm a long way from being able to solo, and I do understand why, after all this time I should be doing a lot better. I know it's my fault but I'm honestly trying as hard as I can...and I'm starting to think my CFI might be getting fed up with telling me to correct the many things I do wrong.


Am I being delusional thinking I can do this with enough time and money or am I being unrealistic? I don't want to seem negative with my CFI but should I ask him point blank if I'm not cut out to fly? Do you think he'd give me an honest answer?

Any advice would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Lumpy
 
If the CFI hasn't discussed your ability so with you,you may want to approach him. Also you may want to go up with a different instructor,and ask for his input.
 
It may not be your thing, but that doesnt mean you cant fly from time to time. Make a few friends at the airport willing to take you up for gas money and you can still go flying when you want.
 
I recommend flying with at least one other instructor and getting a critique. I've trained people much older than you, so age alone is not likely a factor. It could be perceptual/motor issues, or it could be the result of starting pattern work without enough foundation in basic aircraft control.
 
If you have 43 hours and still haven't soloed you should have already flown with another one or two CFIs for feedback--and your CFI should have been the first to advise it. If you've already done that and you've tried flying a different model aircraft and you've ruled out your eyesight as the source of your problems, then the best thing to do is take a hiatus, say six months, to let the 'dust' settle out. At this point, you're so full of details you can't see the forest. When you're back at it, start from the very beginning and review: high altitude work to PTS standards, then ground references to PTS standards, then pattern work last and no earlier. Have your CFI make all landings until you really are ready--you watch and learn. If you make all the same mistakes, you either haven't the right attitude or right aptitude for being a good pilot.

dtuuri
 
How often do you practice slow flight and the other PP maneuvers? When I first started training my CFI focused on that before we were hot and heavy into landings and solo preperation.
 
As a few people have said try going up with a different instructor.

What plane are you flying? Maybe your training on an aircraft that's harder than average to fly.
 
rrmkru said:
How often do you practice slow flight and the other PP maneuvers? When I first started training my CFI focused on that before we were hot and heavy into landings and solo preperation.
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I was practicing slow flight prior to doing pattern work..I think my CFI expected me to be done with pattern work in about 10 hours...he does say in a polite and joking manner that I am a bit on the "slow learning" side, but it's not in a nasty or demeaning way, I do know this is taking me a long time...I guess I'm getting some answers I needed to hear...I think I probably have been delusional thinking I can do this. He does have other CFI's at the school but hasn't suggested I be critiqued by them..he's been a CFI for a long time and is very good...I do realize it's me...I just needed to hear input from others.
 
MachFly said:
As a few people have said try going up with a different instructor.

What plane are you flying? Maybe your training on an aircraft that's harder than average to fly.
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I'm flying a Cessna 150..twice a week, an average of about 3.5 hours total each week...so I'm certain it's not the aircraft.
 
Lumpy Landings said:
I'm flying a Cessna 150..twice a week, an average of about 3.5 hours total each week...so I'm certain it's not the aircraft.
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Yeah it probably isn't the aircraft.

I suspect you may be doing something fundamentally wrong and that one thing may be screwing up everything that you do. Try going up with a different instructor, and maybe one other instructor after that just in case. Because this guy has been flying with you for a while now it is possible he may have gotten used to the way you fly and might be missing something that is fundamental.
 
Find an older instructor, maybe use a different aircraft, start to some extent 'fresh'. Mature flight-students tend to take a bit longer for most of the steps. Wouldn't be any different if you were to learn how to ride a bicycle at your current age.
 
I would bet all the money in my wallet that you have a young flight instructor from a pilot mill school. I have found that many of them know only one way to skin the cat, and if you don't fit the mold then too bad for you. I agree with other posters that you should find an experienced flight instructor (or at least a different one) to give you their opinion. Odds are good that, if you can drive a car, it's not in the motor skills or perception area. You likely just have not been shown the relevant things to pay attention to at each stage.
 
43 hours and no solo?! I agree with the suggestions of going up with another instructor--you probably should have done that by hour 20--and especially so with Ken Ibold's suggestion that you likely have not been shown the relevant things to which attention should be paid.
I was reading about a long-time CFI who retired a few years back after 45 years of flying, and 23 years of being a Pilot Examiner. He said that in all his years, there's been one and exactly only one person he couldn't teach to fly. I sincerely doubt it's you.
 
Change instructors. No more 23 year olds. Find a 45 year old who knows ten ways to do anything.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I would bet all the money in my wallet that you have a young flight instructor from a pilot mill school. I have found that many of them know only one way to skin the cat, and if you don't fit the mold then too bad for you. I agree with other posters that you should find an experienced flight instructor (or at least a different one) to give you their opinion. Odds are good that, if you can drive a car, it's not in the motor skills or perception area. You likely just have not been shown the relevant things to pay attention to at each stage.
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My CFI is only a bit younger than me and a friend...my big fear is he might feel like he's in a difficult spot telling me to give this up.

Honestly, this is something I really want to do and it's a way I could see my daughter and granddaughter who live hundreds of miles away...I'm usually a fast learner...I don't understand why I'm having such trouble with flying.

I appreciate all your suggestions, and will chat with my CFI about having another one of his CFI's critique me...I feel like I'm in a tough spot with too because of our friendship.

Hate to think I might end up being a grounded grandma :(:(:(
 
If he/she really is your friend, he/she should be happy to see if you work better with another instructor.
 
ifconfig said:
I was reading about a long-time CFI who retired a few years back after 45 years of flying, and 23 years of being a Pilot Examiner. He said that in all his years, there's been one and exactly only one person he couldn't teach to fly. I sincerely doubt it's you.
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Thank you for posting that!!!!
I really want to do this so I appreciate there is some hope for me....I'll get another CFI to critique me.
 
First of all, you can't go by "typical" hours for solo or check ride. There are just too many variables. I soloed at 29hrs and didn't get my license until around 90. It just took a while for everything to click. Looking back, i should have gone up with a different instructor to get another perspective. That would have helped with the checkride too. You don't have to ditch to current instructor. Just tell him you want to get a fresh perspective.
 
Lumpy Landings said:
My CFI is only a bit younger than me and a friend...my big fear is he might feel like he's in a difficult spot telling me to give this up.

Honestly, this is something I really want to do and it's a way I could see my daughter and granddaughter who live hundreds of miles away...I'm usually a fast learner...I don't understand why I'm having such trouble with flying.

I appreciate all your suggestions, and will chat with my CFI about having another one of his CFI's critique me...I feel like I'm in a tough spot with too because of our friendship.

Hate to think I might end up being a grounded grandma :(:(:(
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Just tell your friend that you don't want to put him in a tough spot having to tell you you're not cut out for this, so you're going to try it with another CFI to get someone else's opinion. Maybe go to an entirely different FBO so there's no concern about your CFI's comments coloring someone else's evaluation of your progress.

But hey, seriously. You're not always parallel to the runway on rollout to downwind and not always lined up on the centerline? I have about @ 950 more hours than you and my pattern work isn't always perfect either. It's about practice. And with your hours, the tower throwing you unexpected curves is normal. As a student, I once had tower tell me to do a 270* turn on downwind to base for spacing. As I rolled out and called the tower he said "That would be a 360* turn but that's OK, cleared to land 23 Right."

Another time the tower gave me some rapid fire instructions and I replied "53kilo Roger". Not buying my self-assuredness, my CFI asked me, "Do you know what tower just said to you?" and I replied, "Sure, turn left get the wheelbarrow and head for the rain." :D

Do you have a PC flight sim by chance?
 
LL, does your 150 have a DG (directional gyro) and a heading bug? If it does, I've found it helps a lot to set the bug to the desired landing runway heading and fly the pattern. You can fly perfect patterns.
 
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Lumpy Landings said:
Thank you for posting that!!!!
I really want to do this so I appreciate there is some hope for me....I'll get another CFI to critique me.
Click to expand...

Don't look it as critquing, but as unlocking what ever is causing the brain block.

Think of all the times you've been in other learning environments. Did you ever attend the same subject but taught by a different person. Sometimes hearing the same material explained just a slightly different way makes all of the difference.

In addition to working the fundamentals, ask to do a short XC flight with him where a primary point is not to work on the lesson plan items, but just go somewhere. Head out to the local burger or BBQ or breakfast destination. Have a purpose other than the same old same old. Take the pressure off of "having to learn something" and just go enjoy yourself.

Again,
 
Please try another instructor. Sometimes things don't click, and there are many other ways to accomplish the same task. You can absolutely do it if you want to, and I think you want to. It will click one way or another, and it truly might take another perspective to do that. Don't get discouraged, you will accomplish your goals in due time.


Also, I saw you're a lady. Join the 99s, the ladies are great and they will be able to provide you with moral support until and after to accomplish this goal.
 
One thing that my CFI says that seems to work is hold about a degree into the wind for every knot of crosswind. It gets you at least close to the heading you need to hold. I've even tested it in 25+kt crosswinds. Luckily only at pattern height. It dropped to only about 5 kts near the ground.
 
Try flying a Cherokee and see if that does it for you. I had 10 hours in a 150 and couldn't do anything right until I flew a Warrior and soloed 2 hours later.
 
AggieMike88 said:
In addition to working the fundamentals, ask to do a short XC flight with him where a primary point is not to work on the lesson plan items, but just go somewhere. Head out to the local burger or BBQ or breakfast destination. Have a purpose other than the same old same old. Take the pressure off of "having to learn something" and just go enjoy yourself.

Again,
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This idea helped me immensely when I was at a plateau in my pre-solo training. It also helped me realize that a change in instructors was in order, after I came up with the idea, then did the cross-country planning, and my CFI didn't seem the least bit impressed that I had taken that initiative, and very successfully executed it I might add. It made me realize he had his own agenda, which didn't seem to include my success. As many others have mentioned, flying with a different CFI would be a good idea. If you still enjoy flying, whatever you do, don't give up!
 
txflyer said:
LL, does your 150 have a DG (directional gyro) and a heading bug? If it does, I've found it helps a lot to set the bug to the desired landing runway heading and fly the pattern. You can fly perfect patterns.
Click to expand...

I don't think I agree with that advice.

The whole purpose of ground reference maneuvers is to build a feel for the effect of wind on the plane. With any wind at all, the headings flown in the pattern with appropriate wind correction angles will not be relative to any specific pre-figured headings on the DG.

A student, or any pilot really, should be focused outside the plane in the pattern - I don't see how incorporating the DG into pattern work helps in that regard - in fact, I think it would hinder.

But if it worked for you, great!
 
After you fly with another instructor take a week or two off and fly everyday. Twice a day if you can handle it.
 
Please don't give up. I learned to fly this past year at age 58, and it wasn't all smooth sailing. I got very stuck at the landing phase, and it took a while for me to finally "get the picture." Fortunately, the Cessna 172 I was flying was a tough old bird and survived the times I hit the nose wheel, bounced, etc etc.

I agree that a different CFI would be a positive move. Give him or her a chance to evaluate what you're doing right and what you can improve.

And even though I hate to admit it, being a woman student can influence how CFIs treat you. Be sure to speak up for yourself, and don't assume that the fellows are always right. They may have more experience, and some letter behind their name, but you are the best judge of your desire, and your intitiative.

Give it another go, and please report back and let us know how you're doing!

Allison
 
Not a CFI - older pilots just seem to take longer than younger pilots anyway.

It's worth a second opinion from a CFI who normally trains pilots in your age group.
 
I would fly with another CFI. I have done it myself, and recommended it to students. Your CFI won't be disappointed, sometimes it just takes another set of eyes on things.
 
FastEddieB said:
I don't think I agree with that advice.

The whole purpose of ground reference maneuvers is to build a feel for the effect of wind on the plane. With any wind at all, the headings flown in the pattern with appropriate wind correction angles will not be relative to any specific pre-figured headings on the DG.

A student, or any pilot really, should be focused outside the plane in the pattern - I don't see how incorporating the DG into pattern work helps in that regard - in fact, I think it would hinder.

But if it worked for you, great!
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It's just another frame of reference. And if there's no wind, theoretically, you're flying a perfect pattern.

Most student pilot's won't be up on wicked windy days.
 
txflyer said:
It's just another frame of reference. And if there's no wind, theoretically, you're flying a perfect pattern.
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Like I said, whatever works for you.

I just virtually never reference the heading indicator in the pattern, nor have I had my students do so.

But if it helps our friend out (after running it by his instructor), that would be great!
 
I started my training at 63, took me over 70 hours to get to my check ride, there was many times when I thought I'm just not going to make this, but my CFI (mature 50 yr. old) kept reassuring me it would begin to click and eventually it did, now over a year since my check ride my wife and myself enjoy the freedom of flying and I'm confident and feel safe as I learn more about being a pilot each time we go fly somewhere.

Good luck in your dream to become a pilot
 
txflyer said:
LL, does your 150 have a DG (directional gyro) and a heading bug? If it does, I've found it helps a lot to set the bug to the desired landing runway heading and fly the pattern. You can fly perfect patterns.
Click to expand...

Or put the heading bug on the wind direction... It'll help you anticipate the correction you'll need.
 
FastEddieB said:
Like I said, whatever works for you.

I just virtually never reference the heading indicator in the pattern, nor have I had my students do so.

But if it helps our friend out (after running it by his instructor), that would be great!
Click to expand...



Try it sometime just for giggles. Set the bug, then don't look at it and fly your best pattern. When you think you are parallel downwind, give it a glance.

I'll bet you will find you will be off by tens of degree's when you think you are not. It's very hard to judge if you are completely parallel to the runway.
 
mchesney said:
Or put the heading bug on the wind direction... It'll help you anticipate the correction you'll need.
Click to expand...


That's a good tip that would work pretty good in a X-wind. You could line up on final, and crab onto the bug, and you should be following centerline. :yes:
 
txflyer said:
Try it sometime just for giggles. Set the bug, then don't look at it and fly your best pattern. When you think you are parallel downwind, give it a glance.

I'll bet you will find you will be off by tens of degree's when you think you are not. It's very hard to judge if you are completely parallel to the runway.
Click to expand...

Basically, this is not how I fly.

I can pretty much manage to fly a ground path parallel to the runway, and crosswinds and bases roughly perpendicular to it, without ever referencing a heading indicator. It just never enters my consciousness, nor does it need to.

As a minor point, my Sky Arrow does not have a heading indicator. It has a vertical compass - with no bug - but I would never reference that in the pattern.

Of course, my Tiger and Cirrus and all prior planes did have heading indicators - I was just never taught to reference them in the pattern nor found a need to do so.

Not trying to talk anyone out of any aid that works for them. I would just never teach a student to worry about the heading indicator in the pattern - in my experience that's not what ground reference maneuvers (of which a pattern is but one) are all about.
 
Try a new instructor, not everyone can do it. Age and not having operated machines or skied or those sorts of things thruout life makes it harder. I worked with an older woman smart and accomplished in those things the world tells you are important. Absolutely retarded in the air, zero judgement, zero motor skills. She had soloed a few times but it was never pretty, I wasn't the one who signed her off. No one would give her the bowling speech cause everyone is brainwashed not to be sexist pigs. She had flown with at least a dozen instructors, she just could not do it. Try another instructor see how it goes then be honest with yourself.
 
FastEddieB said:
Basically, this is not how I fly.

I can pretty much manage to fly a ground path parallel to the runway, and crosswinds and bases roughly perpendicular to it, without ever referencing a heading indicator. It just never enters my consciousness, nor does it need to.

As a minor point, my Sky Arrow does not have a heading indicator. It has a vertical compass - with no bug - but I would never reference that in the pattern.

Of course, my Tiger and Cirrus and all prior planes did have heading indicators - I was just never taught to reference them in the pattern nor found a need to do so.

Not trying to talk anyone out of any aid that works for them. I would just never teach a student to worry about the heading indicator in the pattern - in my experience that's not what ground reference maneuvers (of which a pattern is but one) are all about.
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No one teaches it, I was not taught it, but it does help clean up your patterns.

Especially at a strange airport you've never flown into and you don't have the landmarks in your memory banks.

I just suggested it because the OP said she was having trouble flying a clean pattern. After 40 hours of going round and round the same field, she needs to try something. Like my old boss used to say "DO SOMETHING! EVEN IF IT'S WRONG! :D
 
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