When are we required to use a FBO?

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
If we fly into a field either transiently or even overnight and just want to tie down outside, are we required to use a FBO? Presuming the airport is public use, is there a way to know if it is possible to avoid the often privately held company running the FBO and their associated fees?

I read the recent thread where a guy said to avoid flying into Burke field kbkl due to fees. In that thread someone said they also had a public parking area which avoided the FBO fees. My question is if there is a way to determine if other airports have public parking areas not controlled by the FBO? In fairness to the fbo at kbkl, I called them a week ago when I considered flying into there and their fees for a single were $10 with a 7 gallon fuel purchase as I recall though fuel was quite expensive.
 
Good question and one that has entered my mind as regards picking up and dropping off pax.

I think we can assume that all ramp area, whether paved or not, is assigned to some entity. You would need to comply with whatever requirement that entity has as regards parking.

As an example, I recently stopped at the manager's office of a local non-towered airport and tied-down at a marked spot. Walked in and the manager asked me if I was staying the night. I wasn't but he was going to ask me to please tie down at an FBO if I were because the FBO's don't like it that the county only charges $5 for overnight. Obviously he can't enforce that request.

As regards pax, the issue gets more muddied. The pax would need access to the ramp area and, these days, that usually means an FBO. In the case I mentioned, the pax should be able to meet me on the manager's ramp. Some FBO's (PBI is one that I know about) charge a lot for you to taxi onto their ramp. $35 at PBI, I think. Some a little (I think KMTH wants $5 or $10) and many nothing at all. The FBO does add some value to the pax if they provide parking.
 
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I agree with alfadog, most, if not all of the ramp area of an airport is assigned or leased to someone and they have the right to charge for it's use. I'm not a fan of ramp fees, I try to buy fuel wherever I go as I understand that's how FBO's make their money. I'm flying to Jacksonville FL today, 3 choices of FBO's at two different airports:
1. Fuel is $5.99, not bad:yes: but they want $75.00 per day ramp fee!!
2. Fuel is $6.59, that's a little pricey, but they are $50.00 per day!
3. Fuel is $6.99!! But their ramp fee is ONLY $35.00:dunno:
I'll need 100 gallons of fuel and I'm staying 3 nights, this question should be on the PPL written exam!
I usually call ahead to check on fuel prices and fees, which is how I found these three options. I can't think of many times I've paid a ramp fee vs buying fuel, it's just usually cheaper to buy the minimum fuel and go. I did fly into Birmingham a couple weeks ago and they wanted 100 gallon minimum and I talked them down to 50.:D
 
N747JB said:
I agree with alfadog, most, if not all of the ramp area of an airport is assigned or leased to someone and they have the right to charge for it's use. I'm not a fan of ramp fees, I try to buy fuel wherever I go as I understand that's how FBO's make their money. I'm flying to Jacksonville FL today, 3 choices of FBO's at two different airports:

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What is your experience as regards just stopping somewhere to pick up pax? Last time I did that was at a smallish towered airport. Picked them up at the FBO and mentioned to the FBO desk that I would be buying fuel when I dropped them off later in the day. That was OK and no fees although I do not think this FBO charges for pickups.
 
alfadog said:
What is your experience as regards just stopping somewhere to pick up pax? Last time I did that was at a smallish towered airport. Picked them up at the FBO and mentioned to the FBO desk that I would be buying fuel when I dropped them off later in the day. That was OK and no fees although I do not think this FBO charges for pickups.
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Varies greatly from airport to airport/FBO to FBO.

Some could care less, others will charge you regardless of how long you are there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Depends.

I fly into KPWK to pick off and drop off crew all the time. Signature and Atlantic are the FBOs. Signature charges a lot for a 10 minute stop. We stopped using them and instead park in an area where there are open spots for the permanent planes and our crew obtained the combination to the fence from one of the flight schools. Saves us big bucks.
 
alfadog said:
What is your experience as regards just stopping somewhere to pick up pax? Last time I did that was at a smallish towered airport. Picked them up at the FBO and mentioned to the FBO desk that I would be buying fuel when I dropped them off later in the day. That was OK and no fees although I do not think this FBO charges for pickups.
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It depends on the FBO, the ones with ramp fees usually enforce them, even for passenger pick up or drop off. A lot depends on the airport, in a metro area, like Atlanta, you're going to pay a fee at most FBO's, same at resort areas. Get out to smaller airports, like Athens Ga, nice towered field, in fees unless you stay over 3 or 4 hours.:D At my home FBO, they wanted to charge my avionics guy for dropping me off after I flew my plane to his shop.:mad2: They waived it, but that's how they make a living.:dunno:
 
One of several reasons for personal travel I avoid big cities. When doing PnP or ARF flights that can be harder but I have yet to pay a fee on a charity flight.

Last ramp fee I payed was $30 at IND last summer when I was picking up and dropping off passengers for airline transfers. Got out money's worth though, all the mil aircraft for a nearby Airshow was there, including the T-birds who buzzed me and the arriving flight I was meeting when the departed. I also used the Mercades crew car to run to the terminal and pick up my sis-in-law and her three kids. We then had some snacks in the loby before loading up and getting out. My niece's name is Pyper so she got a kick out of the PA-28 on the ramp.

The next day I was back to drop off my sister in law as the kids were staying with grandma so reverse the routine.

I think they earned their $60 from me, and it wasn't like they were making any money that weekend, they were empty but for the Cherokee, a F-18 and I
 
I flew into Devils Lake, North Dakota (a small nontowered airport) and found three different ramp areas:
1. Commercial passenger flights (closed to all aircraft when the terminal was closed.)
2. Self Service Fuel
3. FBO full service Fuel

If you got fuel at the lower priced Self Service Fuel you were not welcome at the full service FBO

Same thing at a small airport in Arkansas. The Self Service Fuel had no restrooms or other services. If you got fuel there, then you paid $10.00 to enter the FBO for any reason.
 
This is why I carried the AOPA big book, that told us all this info…… they no longer send it each year at renewal…. and the main reason I quit them.
 
Sometimes it's just more convenient to use the FBO given a choice, as you can get a rental more easily lined up, sometimes even a free car.

Major FBO's don't make money on the little guys. They get their money on biz jets and turboprops, so most aren't THAT put out if you stick five gallons of gas in your Piper Cub at the SS station then park on their ramp, although they will usually charge you for an overnight.
 
Most FBO's will waive ramp fees when you buy fuel. Best thing is to do our research ahead of time.
 
N2124v said:
Most FBO's will waive ramp fees when you buy fuel. Best thing is to do our research ahead of time.
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Agreed. Commonly though where ramp fees exist the fuel is priced much higher than what is available nearby. If an airport is a public use field and a pilot is solely going into the field to drop off a passenger, ramp fees charged by private entities seem improper. Also, doing research is part of the point of this thread; how does one know if a FBO has controlling authority over an entire field?
 
My experience has been mixed. At my home base, Punta Gorda(PGD), the FBO only charges if you tie down overnight and if I remember correctly it is only about $10 or $15 for a single engine piston. I fly into Pompano(PMP) quite frequently and have spent up to 12 hours there and have never been charged anything. The FBO also has a crew car(actually a fairly new minivan) which they will let you use for two hours. Landing while the blimp is around is pretty cool as well. At Boca Raton(BCT) they have 2 FBO's and I have been to Signature twice and they charge about $35 for a transient tie down fees, though I was there a second time on the next day and it was waived. It was mind boggling seeing my plane on outside on the ramp and the Bentley, and Rolls Royce(not mine) in the hangar. At Vero Beach(VRB)they have I have been to Sun Aviation, they have a tie down fee, about $25 though it will be waived if you buy fuel from them. The SS prices are slightly higher than my homebase(50 cents a gallon) but they have a steep discount for using a shell card(which I do not have). You can park at the terminal for free but not overnight.

Many of the 100 hamburger fields I have been to have no fee.

I guess it depends.
 
I might be picking some people up in White Plains for a Hudson Corridor trip, and the FBOs I called all had the same policy. Every time your plane touches our ramp, you have to pay $25. So I'm going land, taxi to the ramp, pay my $25, pick them up, take off, then 45 minutes later, land, taxi to the ramp, pay my $25, drop them off, and be on my merry way. Kinda ridiculous...especially considering that you can park and pay $25 and stay all day. And I won't be able to take on fuel either. The rental place doesn't want you waiving fees like that, even if the fuel is less expensive at other airports.
 
FORANE said:
If we fly into a field either transiently or even overnight and just want to tie down outside, are we required to use a FBO? Presuming the airport is public use, is there a way to know if it is possible to avoid the often privately held company running the FBO and their associated fees?

I read the recent thread where a guy said to avoid flying into Burke field kbkl due to fees. In that thread someone said they also had a public parking area which avoided the FBO fees. My question is if there is a way to determine if other airports have public parking areas not controlled by the FBO? In fairness to the fbo at kbkl, I called them a week ago when I considered flying into there and their fees for a single were $10 with a 7 gallon fuel purchase as I recall though fuel was quite expensive.
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If you have other options use them to encourage the competition to waive the fee. However, in many, perhaps, most cases, this is not an FBO fee and moreover, if it's only $10 what is that actually costing you on a per hour or per mile basis compared to aircraft ownership and operating cost. Different story for those who for there busy have multiple landings per day and hit with the fee every time.

An airport I fly into (football weekends ~500 kt trip) charges no day in day out but $30 for overnight regardless of fuel. I asked the FBO, he said required by the city. I can fly in day of even a late afternoon early evening game and/or other business trip and be back home by midnight spend ~$200 for fuel (usually more because I buy extra fuel for return as there's is $1.00/gal less) vs staying over night. Pointed out that if I stay over night will probably spend an extra $300-400 hotel, food etc. in the city. FBO gets it, but that's the city's policy. They are kind of encouraging people to not stay over and spend more $s, except for the fact that its only $30 and hardly worth worrying about compared to all other costs.

These small fees do help pay for having line service available if needed for tie down and early morning fuel etc. If all of us pay the small fees then hopefully we don't get hit with the large ones at reduced service airports when one needs to call someone back to the airport for fuel, tie down or weather hangar service.

Just my $0.02, if 499 more chipped in their $0.02, we'd have your 10 bucks. ;)
 
If you want to use their bathroom, vending, wifi etc go to the FBO. If you want to tie your plane down without talking to anyone or paying anything go the free route. Don't expect the FBO to help you when you need a cheap rental car though.


I don't consider a $10 tiedown and 7 gallons expensive at all. Then again, ive flown into SNA, APA, phx, Abq etc within the last year.



Also, don't tie down just anywhere. Where I worked people would tie down on what they thought were city tie downs when it was really our jet ramp. So there would be a 172 on our jet ramp that we couldn't move and that always divided our ramp in some bad way.
 
I dunno; when I called the Sac Jet Center for tomorrow, they told me they would waive everything with 10 gal or a top-off, whichever was less. And their full service fuel prices are virtually identical to home (a big deal for a wet-rate renter), so I'm sold. KSAC apparently has transient parking, but I want some help with the rental car, so the FBO is worth it. And it works out to very nearly or maybe even precisely free. Just, I have to redirect fuel sales from the home FBO to them. BFD. They're doing a service.
 
You have to consider the fees that are charged to the FBO by local the airport board.... JAC has one FBO and after attending alot of the monthly board meetings and seeing the spreadsheet of income it is apparant that a FBO that has to pay out over 1 mil a year just to do business here is gonna have to charge some fees to stay in business... The owner is a pilot and the price schedule for small aircraft is very fair IMHO...
 
N801BH said:
You have to consider the fees that are charged to the FBO by local the airport board.... JAC has one FBO and after attending alot of the monthly board meetings and seeing the spreadsheet of income it is apparant that a FBO that has to pay out over 1 mil a year just to do business here is gonna have to charge some fees to stay in business... The owner is a pilot and the price schedule for small aircraft is very fair IMHO...
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Ben
That is interesting. So in the case of the FBO at JAC it is the local airport board responsible. That is a very pretty airport but at rates like you state they must be running a substantial surplus. Did you also see the spreadsheet of expenses?

A few who have replied to this thread have indicated that fee for service is justified. To some extent I agree. Unless I have missed it though, no one has answered the question posed in the title of this thread; perhaps it might be no one knows the answer?
 
FORANE said:
Ben
That is interesting. So in the case of the FBO at JAC it is the local airport board responsible. That is a very pretty airport but at rates like you state they must be running a substantial surplus. Did you also see the spreadsheet of expenses?

..?
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I have seen the expense sheet they provide to the public, altho ALOT of "other stuff" is hidden....... I can say they HEMMORAGE cash here... To the point it is almost unbelievable...:eek:
 
FORANE said:
Ben
Unless I have missed it though, no one has answered the question posed in the title of this thread; perhaps it might be no one knows the answer?
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I may have missed it to. I think we may be skirting the answer because none of know. The answer however may be as simple as researching the field you are going to land at. For the most part the landing and FBO fees are typically published either on the fields website, or the FBO's website, as far as I know. The places where transient planes can tie down are probably listed by most sites as well, and if not calling the field or the FBO I am sure can provide you with the same information.

The gist of the question, I would think, is not when we are required to use an FBO, but more so how can we avoid landing and ramp fees, as if using the FBO was free, I would think that for most of us using that FBO unless there were other mitigating circumstances would not be a significant issue. My answer to the question is we are not required to use any FBO, but if we do not like the costs associated with using the required landing "services" at a particular field, then we do not have to land there. Unfortunately, there often is a cost for convenience and whether we like it or not, sometimes we will have to pay for it.
 
Let me clarify this situation... The airport is owned by the county, the county board sets the landing fee rates.. Those CANNOT be waived by the FBO... They will waive the handling fee if you buy fuel. There is no place on the airport someone can taxi to so you HAVE to use the FBO's ramp space... If you land after 11 pm or take off before 6 am the county fines you... if you arrive in a jet with older style motors , pre stage 2 stuff you get a 750.00 ticket from the county.,,

So.. the answer to the OP question is >stay away from high traffic/ biz jet airports and find the outlying ones... IMHO.. :yes:
 
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douglas393 said:
I may have missed it to. I think we may be skirting the answer because none of know.

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Short answer:
If you want to know the FBO's fees then call the FBO.
If you want to know if the airport provides non-FBO parking then call the airport manager.
 
Not to hijack the thread, maybe a bit off topic but does anyone else remember that guy, Michel Gordillo, who flew his Kitfox from Madrid Spain to Oshkosh '98? I followed his real time blog and he paid some crazy FBO fees in places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. He was even put under house arrest in Vietnam for a couple of weeks because his cargo pod looked "sorta" like a bomb and because of the delay they kept the '98 Airventure open until his delayed arrival.

I remember the most touching part of the story that put a lump in my throat was when he crossed the Bearing Strait and reached Alaska - from that point on until he got to Oshkosh he never paid a dime for a meal, a gallon of avgas or a bed to sleep in.

Edit: found a link to an article that was written about it: Madrid to Oshkosh
 
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Silvaire said:
......I remember the most touching part of the story that put a lump in my throat was when he crossed the Bearing Strait and reached Alaska - from that point on until he got to Oshkosh he never paid a dime for a meal, a gallon of avgas or a bed to sleep in.
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That is America at it's finest..:yes::yes::):thumbsup:
 
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