What's "good moral character"?

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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FAR 61.153 said:
To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:
...
(c) Be of good moral character;
Click to expand...

Relative to getting an ATP what is "good moral character"? That terms is not in part 1 and seems incredibly vague & subjective.
If one is convicted of a serious crime not involving alcohol or drugs does that cause their ATP to be revoked?
 
This is like trying to define "normal."

As weird as it may sound I'm sure it has reasoning behind it. Usually ATP pilots deal with people. Although, by the time you've gotten to the ATP level, you've delt with a lot of people so I think most of the time the worst is weeded out.

Maybe it's just me, but I've never heard of a certificate denied due to "bad moral character" and would love to listen in on their description. If someone is that bad, he/she might want to rethink his/her people skills and objectives.
 
It probably comes down to lying on your application at any point, for example if you lied about drug use and it was found out that you lied at a later point in time, that would probably be considered bad moral character. Committing a crime would probably count, too.

I agree, though, I would love to see the court case. Something like that is so subjective, that if it hasn't been clearly defined by some other means (which is not stated nor implied by that FAR), I'm not sure how they would prove or disprove.
 
I remember a quote that said essentially "Character is what you do when no one is watching".

Here's a start - according to the INS.
http://careers.findlaw.com/firmsite/attachments/LE6_c_checklist_WhatIsGoodMoralCharacter.pdf

Wikipedia simply cites the same items.

However, oysters can rob you of your "good moral character", even if you make amends :( :
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/172675_suit10.html

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-character/

The $64 question is: How do you get your "good moral character" back, or more precisely, how do you re-establish it? Or can you even do that?
 
>Not holding a national elective office.

Not *attempting* to hold a national elective office would be more accurate
 
Tristar said:
This is like trying to define "normal."

As weird as it may sound I'm sure it has reasoning behind it. Usually ATP pilots deal with people. Although, by the time you've gotten to the ATP level, you've delt with a lot of people so I think most of the time the worst is weeded out.

Maybe it's just me, but I've never heard of a certificate denied due to "bad moral character" and would love to listen in on their description. If someone is that bad, he/she might want to rethink his/her people skills and objectives.
Click to expand...

That same phrase shows up in other places (non aviation) - for example to get a Cosmetology or Barber license in Michigan - same thing. And, yes, people frequently get turned down.

There are guidelines that each agency develops internally.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That same phrase shows up in other places (non aviation) - for example to get a Cosmetology or Barber license in Michigan - same thing. And, yes, people frequently get turned down.

There are guidelines that each agency develops internally.
Click to expand...
When I first moved to Illinois there was a case were a person who had graduated law school and passed the bar was being prohibited from getting his law license under the moral character clause. Seems he was a white supremest and the state bar did not wish to admit him. Went to court and the state bar continued to win.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Relative to getting an ATP what is "good moral character"?
Click to expand...
It's a phrase somebody thought would sound good when they wrote the FARs. I guess it also could be used by the Administrator as some catchall reason to pull someone's ATP if they couldn't find any other reason in the regs. I've never heard of it being used for this purpose, though, so I wouldn't worry about it.
 
It's prety much whatever the FAA says it is. Examples from the NTSB files of what the FAA considers lack of good moral character about which the NTSB concurred include:
  • Indecent exposure
  • Cocaine conviction
  • Use of an aircraft in a crime
  • Intentional falsification
  • Interstate Travel With Intent to Engage in a Sexual Act with a Minor
As a side note, the NTSB disagreed with and overruled the FAA in a case involving intentional failure to pay federal income taxes due to the pilot's misunderstanding of tax law, saying (more or less) that stupidity is not evidence of lack of good moral character.
 
The only case I am aware of is one in which someone in the cockpit of a DC-3 mooned an airliner while taxiing. That guy lost his ATP.

Bob Gardner
 
An atp once told me the FAA doesn't pursue this particular reg, for fear of crippling the nation's aviation system! :D
 
bobmrg said:
The only case I am aware of is one in which someone in the cockpit of a DC-3 mooned an airliner while taxiing. That guy lost his ATP.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
Seems kinda excessive. Doesn't point to a lack of moral character in and of itself.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's prety much whatever the FAA says it is. Examples from the NTSB files of what the FAA considers lack of good moral character about which the NTSB concurred include:
  • Indecent exposure
  • Cocaine conviction
  • Use of an aircraft in a crime
  • Intentional falsification
  • Interstate Travel With Intent to Engage in a Sexual Act with a Minor
Click to expand...
Considering the jobs that typically require an ATP wouldn't the airlines pick up on this regardless of the FAA? I mean every non-av job I've had required a background check and one was for min wage.
 
There's a difference between holding a certificate and holding a job. Joe the Ax Murderer can get a Commercial Cert, but won't be employable. He might get denied the ATP cert.

Additionally, there's a list of crimes that disqualify you from working in commercial aviation - I believe it's the same list that you have to "pass" to be cleared to operate in the DC FRZ. Air piracy, rape, drug running, treason, murder, and a few others are what I vaguely remember.
 
I have a postscript to the story of the mooning DC3 pilot losing his ATP. I read about the story in an early '80's edition of 'Pilot' magazine in the UK - they had an excellent 'Letter from America' penned by the aviation writer Stephen Wilkinson - and very good it was too. Anyway, Wilkinson had written how, somewhere in Hicksville, USA, a pilot in a (stationary as I recall it) DC3 on the ramp had mooned a party of Boy/Girl Scouts. The female Scout leader was outraged, complained to the Feds (why? Why not his employer?) and the Feds pulled his ATP over the "Good moral character" clause, leaving him with a Commercial. (Interesting how the childish act of mooning upset the Feds in this context, yet generations of airline pilots serially cheating on their wives with the hosties did/does not, but I digress).

Skip forward 8-10 years and I wanted to get a US ATP so I called the resident FAA man who was embedded with the CAA at Gatwick to ask him if he had the power of an FSDO, and could help me sign off on the paperwork required before submitting myself for the exams and flight tests. Yes, said, he, and an appointment was duly arranged..

I turned up, and after an exchange of pleasantries we got down to it. He had the form in front of him and started asking "Do you have 1500 hours total?", to which I replied "yes" - tick, "Do you have "300 hours cross country?", "Yes", tick - and so on until, with a funny little grin on his face he looked at me and asked "Are you of good moral character?". I replied, straight away, "Well, I haven't hung a moon out of the window of a DC3 lately if that's what you mean". This obviously startled him and he said "You know about that?". At this point it was on the tip of my tongue to say "Yes, what dedicated anally retentive puritan in the Feds pulled that man's ATP for a foolish prank?" when he said "I was officer involved in that case!"
 
Misty said:
I have a postscript to the story of the mooning DC3 pilot losing his ATP. "
Click to expand...

I have a question - what are you doing reading threads that are 10 years old? Is life that boring?
 
Simple - I did a search for the definition of "Good moral character" in the context of the FAA ATP and this thread came up. If you don't like it, why are you reading it?
 
It was the next newest thread I hadn't read...
 
tenor.gif
 
Everything is relative:
- when I was in the realm of university academia the requirements for tenured professorship were being discussed...a disqualifying condition published was “moral terpitude”.
When I inquired what this would entail, the answer was: sleeping with another faculty member’s graduate student didn’t meet the criterium, but sleeping with your own would.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Relative to getting an ATP what is "good moral character"? That terms is not in part 1 and seems incredibly vague & subjective.
If one is convicted of a serious crime not involving alcohol or drugs does that cause their ATP to be revoked?
Click to expand...

Only case I can recall is one in which a pilot mooned a passing airliner (on the ground, of course) and had his ATP revoked.

Bob
 
wrbix said:
Everything is relative:
- when I was in the realm of university academia the requirements for tenured professorship were being discussed...a disqualifying condition published was “moral terpitude”.
When I inquired what this would entail, the answer was: sleeping with another faculty member’s graduate student didn’t meet the criterium, but sleeping with your own would.
Click to expand...
Today, any fraternization between a prof and any student is at least strongly frowned upon, and depending on whether unpleasant fallout ensues, can lead to pressure on the prof to resign, revocation of tenure, etc. It's not so much "moral terpitude" now as Title IX.
 
azure said:
Today, any fraternization between a prof and any student is at least strongly frowned upon, and depending on whether unpleasant fallout ensues, can lead to pressure on the prof to resign, revocation of tenure, etc. It's not so much "moral terpitude" now as Title IX.
Click to expand...
Don’t know that fraternization is the correct term here, but I know what you mean
 
If you have to ask...
 
.....”I know it when I see it”
 
bobmrg said:
Only case I can recall is one in which a pilot mooned a passing airliner (on the ground, of course) and had his ATP revoked.

Bob
Click to expand...
That sounds a lot like one that I witnessed, except the pilot mooned a troop of Boy Scouts on the ramp getting a tour.
 
All I'm required to ask as an examiner is if they've been convicted of any felonies.

Beyond that, I've heard of one guy who got his ATP revoked, and supposedly can only hold a Commercial certificate now, for falsifying Part 135 records.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Relative to getting an ATP what is "good moral character"? That terms is not in part 1 and seems incredibly vague & subjective.
If one is convicted of a serious crime not involving alcohol or drugs does that cause their ATP to be revoked?
Click to expand...


There was a justice debating a vague matter, he said something along the lines of it’s like judging good porn, you might not be able to describe it, but you’ll know it when you see it.

I’d say depends on the crime, some victimless thing meh, though some HR types down the road can be a little puritanical

If you are a thief or hurt someone or something, I wouldn’t put my name on your app if I were a DPE/check airman/ASI.
 
The catch is that what constitutes either good or bad moral character is highly subjective. Besides obvious things such as murder, rape, or theft many things one person would consider immoral, another would consider perfectly acceptable. If one of those subjective behaviors were to cause an overzealous ASI to pursue revocation and FAA legal didn't shut it down then the admin law judge most likely would. It would most likely take an actual violation of a law that is based on societal norms to invoke that reg.
 
Good moral character? I have no idea what that is.

Good social character, OTOH, that one is easy: That's the person who passes the joint after just one hit.

Anyone who bogarts a joint is banned from future parties. So the outcome for the bad characters is pretty much the same.
 
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