What would you do?

EdFred

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
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White Chocolate
So, I had 5 cylinders OH'd and put on 60 hours ago. I also had a 6th one that was brand spanking new put on, because they said it wasn't 'serviceable'. 35 hours in, one of the OH'd cylinders was running hot. Pulled it, it had an abnormal wear pattern. Sent it back in, they re-whatever-they-do-to-it, and 25 hours later, it's the same thing. Looked at the other 4 OH'ed cylinders and they are all torn up on the cylinder walls. The new one still looks perfect.

What would you expect out of the shop to make things right? The cylinders didn't really need to be OH'd, but my OCD saod if you're going to do 1, do them all, and they looked better BEFORE I sent them in than they do now.
 
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Sounds like there's a process problem with the OH shop. Chrome rings, on chrome jugs? Improper ring gap? Cast rings, Iron jug? Wrong piston? Heck I really don't know but I sure would tell them that this time it's on their dime, and if they make one stink about it, take them elsewhere and let them know the shop will be served soon.

YMMV, objects in mirror, don't try this at home, etc.
 
I don't know the why it happened, but since one of them went back, and in 25 hours is garbage again, I don't know if them redoing them is the answer. I know I shouldn't expect new cylinders, but these are now ruined and they weren't before, so I kinda expect new cylinders. And yeah, a call/trip to the FSDO with the cylinders and a lawyer is on the horizon if they fuss.
 
wow, sounds like poor workmanship if there are no other 'circumstances'

best you can hope for is refund of the refurb costs - that's all the shop is liable for
 
Cylinder work is not rocket surgery. There's not a lot they can get wrong if they follow well established processes. Someone made a mistake along the way, and they made it repetitively.
 
At least they are consistent.
 
This really sucks, Ed. Not only from a potential cost standpoint but also from a "the plane's down" just as we're seeing more good flying weather.

Didn't you have it sold? Was this discovered in a prebuy?
 
Yes, found during prebuy. Monday the shop is getting an earful from my A&P and I.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know the why it happened, but since one of them went back, and in 25 hours is garbage again, I don't know if them redoing them is the answer. I know I shouldn't expect new cylinders, but these are now ruined and they weren't before, so I kinda expect new cylinders. And yeah, a call/trip to the FSDO with the cylinders and a lawyer is on the horizon if they fuss.
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docmirror is right on.....

I would approach them, ask nicely to fix it.... if they give you one second of BS, I would head STRAIGHT to the FAA, and hope they get their repair station ticket pulled... Before they kill someone...:sad::sad::yikes:
 
EdFred said:
So, I had 5 cylinders OH'd and put on 60 hours ago. I also had a 6th one that was brand spanking new put on, because they said it wasn't 'serviceable'. 35 hours in, one of the OH'd cylinders was running hot. Pulled it, it had an abnormal wear pattern. Sent it back in, they re-whatever-they-do-to-it, and 25 hours later, it's the same thing. Looked at the other 4 OH'ed cylinders and they are all torn up on the cylinder walls. The new one still looks perfect.

What would you expect out of the shop to make things right? The cylinders didn't really need to be OH'd, but my OCD saod if you're going to do 1, do them all, and they looked better BEFORE I sent them in than they do now.
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Sucks to have that kind of OCD, well, you ****ed yourself. Now you get to replace them with new ones to match the other. You might also send them off to a better shop like Charlie Merlot's and have him fix them if he can.
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here......yuz gots the wrong ring combo....for your cylinder metallurgy.
 
Clark1961 said:
wow, sounds like poor workmanship if there are no other 'circumstances'

best you can hope for is refund of the refurb costs - that's all the shop is liable for
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Yep, and I would not send them back there, just get what you can and learn your lesson about not fixing things that aren't broke.
 
Well, your OCD did screw you and that's really not the way to do it. Only do them all if they all need done.

Yes, the shop should make it right, but I doubt if they will without some lawyer action.

Relative to the sale of your airplane, looks like you're out 6 new cylinders.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, found during prebuy. Monday the shop is getting an earful from my A&P and I.
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So, did you select/hire/pay the cylinder shop or did the A&P? If the latter, then this is your A&P's problem, not yours and I'd be quite disagreeable to the idea of paying him to R&R everything for a second time too.

PAP in little Berryville, AR. You won't find a better cylinder shop out there. Seth's one of the most anal retentive people I know.

www.pap2fly.com
 
Actually, my OCD found more issues, that would have popped up - possibly in flight. One cylinder the compressions were crap, so we pulled it. That one was not the one that got replaced. When we pulled the others, another one had a broken oil control ring. That one was also not the one that was replaced. So, at this point half the cylinders have issues, halfway through the recommended TBO. So, I did all 6. And with what my dad had just gone through with his, I figured it better to be proactive than reactive.
 
Ed, I think the least you are entitled to is a refund of your OH costs. I'd try for new cylinders if you can, but you are going to need your A&P's help with that. A reasonable compromise might be to settle for the " pro rated value of new cylinders based on the hours on the cylinders when you bought them in.

Call me and I'll tell you how I'd approache this.
 
Did the cylinder shop exchange your cylinders or rebuild the ones you sent them?
 
As expected, all parties involved are taking the "well it couldn't have been our work." Although my A&P is saying if for some reason after investigating it it does come back on him, I won't have any money coming out of my pocket. We've checked the rings. The rings (by part number) are the correct ones for the cylinders. So it's not that. I had it out on the phone with the cylinder shop on Monday, and was able to get them to at least change their "no way in hell was it us" stance to a "well, I guess it's possible."

One worry I had is that maybe *I* did something wrong, somehow, but the inspecting A&P said there's no way this is an operations issue. I do like to lean aggressively, so that makes me feel a bit better. And since the sale of the plane fell through, it looks as though I will probably be using it considerably more than I had planned on (if the buyer never approached me). I start have another thread about that in HT.

I retrieved the plane yesterday, and got it back home. My A&P is going to pull a cylinder and piston and rings, double check his work, and then send it down to the shop to get their stance on it as well. Something more hands on that just verbal descriptions and pictures, and we will go fro there. How long the plane is down for until this gets resolved, I don't know.
 
Was it G & N in Griffith, Indiana? Those guys have a very good reputation.
 
PPC1052 said:
Was it G & N in Griffith, Indiana? Those guys have a very good reputation.
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'twas not, and I am not going to say anymore who it was or wasn't, until everything is resolved and we figure out where the blame actually lies.
 
I've become disgusted with cylinder shops I have all but quit using them.

Any more I just advise getting new.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
even if all's I need is new guides and seats on a 300 hr cylinder? :eek::yikes::eek:
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Yup.... Those are the most critical repairs.... I have seen name brand cyl shops put in guides and seats without enough "press fit" ... And they came loose......... Don't ask me how I know...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:...:mad:..

That is the MAIN reason I went the experimental route.. and NOBODY does motor work on my plane except ME....:nonod::no:
 
N801BH said:
Yup.... Those are the most critical repairs.... I have seen name brand cyl shops put in guides and seats without enough "press fit" ... And they came loose......... Don't ask me how I know...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:...:mad:..

That is the MAIN reason I went the experimental route.. and NOBODY does motor work on my plane except ME....:nonod::no:
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Yeah, but unless you and Henning are the same person, you wouldn't do surgery on your pet,
And I don't do surgery on my engine. I'll find someone I can trust to do it better than me.
 
I haven't heard of anyone complain about Central Cylinder in Omaha -- which is where my last cylinder came from. Granted every cylinder I sent them they told me couldn't be overhauled so they finally found one for me that could.

Since they're pretty much the defacto "go to" around here for a bad cylinder I've flown behind MANY of them.
 
JOhnH said:
Yeah, but unless you and Henning are the same person, you wouldn't do surgery on your pet,
And I don't do surgery on my engine. I'll find someone I can trust to do it better than me.
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I know my limits..

First.. I am NOT Henning.

Second... I will not do surgery on my pets.....

Third..... I know my way around the inside of an engine REAL well...;):rolleyes::yes:
 
Guessing the overhaul shop isn't paying for all the labor to play the musical cylinders game?


Often the cost between new and overhauled isn't that much, if you have a Franklin yeah you're going OH, but for a Lycoming or Conti just buy new and be done with it.
 
Have a local shop that is very good with cylinder overhauls but he isn't fast. Maybe that's a good thing.
 
Do like the old lady in the discount tire commercial....

Take the jugs to the shop and throw them through their GD window.
 
N801BH said:
Third..... I know my way around the inside of an engine REAL well...;):rolleyes::yes:
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That's the issue. Guys like us are the sorts who thrive in the experimental world. But, many folks have no business turning wrenches on their own planes. For those folks, certified has advantages.

I'm looking forward to the day when I can build my experimental twin. If a kit existed I'd start now. Since it doesn't, I have to wait for it to exist or make my own.
 
dans2992 said:
There is a Velocity Twin...
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Not fast enough or big enough for my mission. Minimum of 310 size (Aztec size preferred, 340 or 421 size considered) with minimum 220 KTAS, 250 preferred. Needs 6 seats minimum.
 
Maybe they could bring back the Adam A500 as a kit...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Not fast enough or big enough for my mission. Minimum of 310 size (Aztec size preferred, 340 or 421 size considered) with minimum 220 KTAS, 250 preferred. Needs 6 seats minimum.
Click to expand...

I bet you can get Boomerang plans for a good deal.
 
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