What would you do?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Student
  • Start date Start date
S

Student

Guest
Student pilot with roughly 50 hours at the end of my training about to do check ride soon. I do not want to name the airfield or location for obvious reasons - but we are at about sea level. I was assigned a new instructor recently.

We were conducting our normal pre-flight briefing when I assessed the weather as marginal. The nearest airfield was reporting a low ceiling of 1,500 feet, with forecasts indicating gradual improvement throughout the day. However, at our departure airfield, there was a low cloud layer at approximately 800 feet AGL, with scattered openings.

Based on these conditions, I stated that the flight should be considered a no-go due to weather. The instructor disagreed and stated that they would conduct the takeoff because they were instrument rated. This was my first concern. My understanding is that being instrument rated does not permit flying through clouds without an IFR flight plan and clearance.

We proceeded with takeoff. At approximately 800 feet AGL, we entered a thin cloud layer for about 100–150 feet before breaking out on top. The instructor described this as merely “visible moisture.” This was my second concern.

We conducted the training portion of the flight at 3,000 feet without issue. However, when it was time to return, the cloud layer was still present over our airfield.

Rather than diverting or waiting for improved conditions, the instructor circled the area looking for an opening in the clouds. Upon finding one, they performed a steep descent using forward slip to descend through a small gap, narrowly avoiding entering the clouds. The airspace was Class E, and we were not maintaining the required 1,000 feet above, 500 feet below, and 2,000 feet horizontal cloud clearance.

The instructor greased the landing, and I was concerned that if a go-around had been necessary, we would have entered the cloud layer, as there were no visible openings at the departure end of the runway.

I feel that this instructor is an unsafe pilot and frankly should not be teaching let alone flying. What would you do?
 
It's his pocketbook and therefore "desperation of schedule" vs adherence to the FARs (which largely act to keep folks alive). What he doesn't get is the example he sets, even if he is capable of doing this safely. Law of primacy "every time we come to the airport, we fly". Such are the stressors of being a young CFI.
 
First of all I wouldn’t have gone. However since you did I would talk to the CFI and get his reasoning for flying IFR without an IFR clearance and not maintaining VFR cloud separation. If he admits he was wrong then I would drop it, although I might find another instructor. If he maintains that he did nothing wrong I would talk to the Chief Flight Instructor
 
It's not necessarily a bad idea to take an advanced student pilot into the clouds to get a better taste for flight solely by instrument reference than foggles. BUT that should be part of the planned lesson and done on an instrument flight plan. So while there might be a reasonable explanation, my initial impression based solely on your description is that, as Bruce suggests, this is a CFI more interested in time building than instruction.
 
I had one flight where it was reported marginal at a nearby airport. Mine doesn't have weather. We decided together to try some takeoff and landing practice. Once airborn we could get to pattern altitude, but did not have cloud clearance. Landed and called it a day.

Exercise your pic privileges. Question your CFI on his decision. If a satisfactory answer is given go fill out an AOPA personal minimums contract with your instructor. That will be good to bring to your checkride.

If a satisfactory answer is not given, talk to the flight school owner or chief pilot.
 
Well if I make a no go decision that’s that, he’s free to take the plane solo on his own dime if he wants.

Using IFR to get in and out of a home field isn’t really a big deal, I’m curious why he didn’t just pull a quick IFR?

Flying VFR in marginal weather is also a specific skill set, I probably wouldn’t have a issue taking off and just buzzing below the clouds, or doing pattern work in that, but doing a slips to go through a sucker hole into the pattern (if that’s what he did) isn’t too bright.

What would I do?

1 I wouldn’t have flown if I made a no go

2 I wouldn’t fly with him again

3 I’d move on as snitching is not something I do, nor recommend
 
My understanding is that being instrument rated does not permit flying through clouds without an IFR clearance.
Click to expand...
Correct. Cloud clearance for Visual Flight Rules is required by regulation. FAR 91.155 ‘VFR Weather minimums’ defines required Distance from clouds.
Student said:
this instructor is an unsafe pilot and … should not be teaching let alone flying.
Click to expand...
Based on description provided in OP, agreed.
Student said:
What would you do?
Click to expand...
Request another instructor for remaining lessons/check-ride prep.
 
Last edited:
decalogue said:
3 I’d move on as snitching is not something I do, nor recommend
Click to expand...
I take it you haven't seen the two "Death by Flight Instructor" stories this past year. I bet the students' families wish there had been a snitch (although in one it might not have helped).
 
midlifeflyer said:
I take it you haven't seen the two "Death by Flight Instructor" stories this past year. I bet the students' families wish there had been a snitch (although in one it might not have helped).
Click to expand...

Maybe, but there were plenty of other holes in the Swiss cheese.

Just not something I was raised to do
 
Student said:
Based on these conditions, I stated that the flight should be considered a no-go due to weather.
Click to expand...

That should have ended the discussion. You're the customer, you're paying for the flight, you get to make the call. You should try to be more assertive in these matters. Don't succomb to pressure. If the weather, aircraft, your personal fitness, or even just a gut feeling indicate you shouldn't fly, stay on the ground.

Student said:
My understanding is that being instrument rated does not permit flying through clouds without an IFR flight plan and clearance.
Click to expand...

Your understanding is correct.

Student said:
At approximately 800 feet AGL, we entered a thin cloud layer for about 100–150 feet before breaking out on top.
Click to expand...

Illegal.

Student said:
What would you do?
Click to expand...

Assuming this is a flight school, not an independant instructor, I would have a talk with the chief instructor or the school owner, or both. I would refuse to fly with this person again and request a different instructor.


QUESTION FOR YOU: Were other instructors from the school making VFR flights at the same time, under the same conditions?
 
Unfortunately for some instructors it’s about the money. Unfortunately he intimidated you ,I would have stayed with my decision to abort the flight. Cancelling a flight shows you made a decision you are comfortable for you. Remember the old saying being on the ground wishing you were up flying,is better than being above wishing you were on the ground.
 
Half Fast said:
That should have ended the discussion. You're the customer, you're paying for the flight, you get to make the call. You should try to be more assertive in these matters. Don't succomb to pressure. If the weather, aircraft, your personal fitness, or even just a gut feeling indicate you shouldn't fly, stay on the ground.



Your understanding is correct.



Illegal.


Assuming this is a flight school, not an independant instructor, I would have a talk with the chief instructor or the school owner, or both. I would refuse to fly with this person again and request a different instructor.


QUESTION FOR YOU: Were other instructors from the school making VFR flights at the same time, under the same conditions?
Click to expand...
This is a flight school. What’s crazy is based on my instructors poor decision to fly another student with their instructor took off through the hole we shot through to land (down wind departure). This school seems to have a culture of we are flying at all costs.

As to canceling the school has implemented a new policy that if you cancel flight the instructor can then force you to do ground training for the same period. Even if you are only scheduled for a flight. Considering I have completed the whole course and awaiting checkride this makes zero sense. I didn’t show up one time for a flight that I notified the instructor that it was a no-go and was charged $350 for cancelling as we had planned a XC and aircraft was booked for 3 hours. I explained the weather was IFR and they agreed but I didn’t show for the ground training.

Bring at the check ride and limited on options it maybe best to call this instructor out to the chief. Explain the seriousness of the situation from my perspective and ask for a new instructor. I truly think this guy should not be flying nor training. But if another instructor went up and flew under the same conditions what can I do to stop the flight school from forcing ground on me when I am done with the whole program if the weather prohibits a flight? They are just about the money not safety.
 
Had very very similar issue with a CFI maybe half way through my training. We landed to de-brief and I took a restroom break. I went and found the then chief instructor and explaining everything in detail. He totally agreed that the flight was my call not the instructor's to make. The chief went right up to the instructor and said we have a very serious matter to discuss about your future here please meet me in my office. A few days later the owner of the flight school called and apologized and said that should have never happened and offered to refund the flight. I declined the offer but requested that I pick my next instructor. Never seen that CFI again but I did get the best CFI at the flight school for the rest of my training not to mention their block discount (5%) on all flights thereafter. Assume they wanted to not tarnish their name because one bad apple.
 
I haven't read all the replies, so I may step on advice.

1. Report a pilot deviation for the CFI. The report should start with; "I have reason to believe...". Then set out the facts as you know them, and what you think was a violation.

2. Run and never fly with that CFI again.

3. Ask around at a different field for a CFI to complete your training. If you have been released for solo, let the CFI know that milestone.
 
When I bought my plane to train in, it came with two seat pack parachutes. In my third or fourth lesson, we strapped them on for some light acro. My CFI was a very smart, and very advanced pilot, including AF jet flying. Only later did I discover that parachutes used for emergency egress have a repack schedule, the CFI knew about it, and knew my equip was 3 months out of date. I was too timid to ask him about it, but I asked another CFI, they had a meeting of the minds, and my inst apologized, and said what we(?) did was wrong. I had the chutes repacked and we continued primary training. That still stays with me all those years ago.
 
Adding to the chorus of commenting to the Chief Instructor / Owner and get another Instructor. Switching Instructors will probably set you back a few hours as the new Instructor needs to asses the skill level and have confidence in signing-off for the check ride, although it will also serve as a good cross-check of current training and help with the skills.

This is also a good lesson to keep for the rest of your life. I have come across other pilots who are willing to do things outside my envelope (ex: 0/0 takeoff where the area around the airfield is nothing but residential neighborhoods and woods. Simply put, all bad options if the engine quits) or passengers who wanted to fly versus drive (ex: hot humid day with unstable air. Yup, we drove the car 4 hours each way and went through several massive thunderstorms on the drive home).

Even long after I got rated, some CFII's and I were at odds over whether to launch for an instructional flight. In the end, I still kept the Instructor's respect as I made the no-go decision, justified how the conditions were not going to work, and that was that.
 
FAFO! I think all of us have a brain file that falls into the category of NEVER DO THAT AGAIN!

You knew the weather wasn’t VFR minimums. You deferred to the bad decision of an instructor and you observed the roll of the dice outcome that didn’t kill you this time.

The real problem is when not doing it right becomes your new standard operating procedure.

One time when I was flying solo on a student sign off, I was in the left hand pattern on runway 24 with about 4-5 other aircraft at an uncontrolled airport with a pattern altitude of 1900 feet. A really fast glasair aircraft started making announcements on the radio that he was approaching from the north at 2500 feet for a standard left entry to the downwind for runway 24.

At that moment I had NO CLUE what that meant. I knew that everyone in the pattern was on the radio and making the usual radio callouts, and the FAA standard entry required crossing midfield at 500–1,000 ft above pattern altitude, and a descending teardrop to join the downwind.

I could rattle off all the FAA regs in reference to right of ways, and all the who, what, why’s or when’s. This guy violated every one of them. I never even saw him until he passed under my aircraft at WFT! I should have filed a near miss report, scary close!

We ended up talking at the fuel farm. He was an older guy 70+ years old. No yelling or fighting. But he didn’t feel like he had done anything wrong.

I called my CFI and we talked about the entire fiasco. Obviously this guy had been flying for a while. Most normal folks don’t buy a Glasair as a first aircraft and he had adopted some personal standard operating practices that could have gotten us both killed.

Good habits can save your life. Bad habits can get you killed. By now you know all the regs and minimums snd you should have your own personal minimums written in stone.

Let this be a NEVER DO THAT AGAIN Moment. "better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground"

If you were a first day on the job, new hire first officer at a major airline and the Captain wanted to initiate a non emergency deviation that violated FAA regs and company rules what would you do? What would your company expect you to do?

Is this a CRM (crew recourse management) test? Are your personal minimums actually written in stone? Or are you more like Captain Jack Sparrow who famously considered the Pirate Code more as "guidelines" than actual rules?
 
rockyfatcat said:
FAFO! I think all of us have a brain file that falls into the category of NEVER DO THAT AGAIN!
Click to expand...
I think it's something less than a brain fart. Many of us have been in the situation. New or student pilot, looking up as the CFI as an authority figure. If they think it's OK, why not?

I had that experience the first time I checked out in a 172. New airplane, new airport, new instructor. A few weeks after I got my private. We went up and the CFI thought it would be cool to do a "watch this!." He said it was a hammerhead stall, but it was long enough ago and I was green enough that I'm not sure it wasn't actually a wingover.

Either way, I thought it was really cool and innocently talked about it at the flight school after the flight. Oops. For some reason he was gone the next time I came to the airport.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I just hate the whole "snitch" discourse in popular culture, and think it is a clear indicator of lack of character.
Click to expand...

"Snitching" is when your little sister tells mom you took a cookie.

Failing to do anything about an illegal and dangerous breach of aviation regs is ignoring a moral obligation.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I just hate the whole "snitch" discourse in popular culture, and think it is a clear indicator of lack of character.
Click to expand...
I agree completely.
Half Fast said:
"Snitching" is when your little sister tells mom you took a cookie.

Failing to do anything about an illegal and dangerous breach of aviation regs is ignoring a moral obligation.
Click to expand...
Particularly where the likelihood is that the danger will affect others than the actor.
 
Hmm...
What I would do is reflect heavily on lessons learned.
At 50 hours and check ride ready there's a lot you likely know. There's also a 100% chance there's a lot you don't. I've got a few more hours than that, still learning.
One of the tougher things to learn at your stage is who has what authority. Likely you've relied on instructors to make the call on things, maybe even bounced conditions for solo flights off of them. You're at the point where you transition to being the 100% authority. Not that you can't still consult others for what they'd do(and you should), but the buck stops with you. So - if you decided Wx made it a no go why were you in the right seat? Not trying to throw you under the bus as you still have to trust instructors but your DPE is going to be your first passenger. Sure they can fly(one would hope) but it's up to you to make the calls.

Second - we've got your side of the story here. What you've described is concerning for sure. That said, while FAA regs are explicit on cloud clearance - I've yet to encounter an airplane with a laser or parallax device to give me foot level accuracy on distance from clouds in every direction. I've met a number of student pilots who interpret a little on the conservative side(which is good!). If you no kidding climbed through a 150' cloud deck you couldn't see through, that's a problem.
What I would do next is talk to the chief instructor. If you're not comfortable with this instructor don't fly with them again. Share your concerns with what you weren't comfortable with and what you felt was unsafe. Whether it's an isolated incident or a larger pattern the chief instructor should be able to handle appropriately.

It seems folks come here looking for validation for reporting people to the FAA. Sometimes, that's the correct thing to do. More often though things can be handled more effectively at a more local level. If you have to take away Grandpa's Buick keys do you start by calling state patrol?
 
On the topic of whether snitching is right or wrong….

A local pilot had a reputation amongst us other owners/pilots. He commonly made decisions that most of us considered unsafe. His airplane was maintained on paper, but we all knew that “pencil whipped” would be a kind way to describe his logs. If you hung out with him, you had to wonder how he was able to pass any kind of medical. He was a friendly guy and people were usually happy to hang out with him at hangar get togethers, but most all of us privately vowed to never fly with him. …. He ended up killing himself and three other people with that poorly maintained airplane when he decided to attempt a high/hot takeoff from an airport surrounded by trees with his plane loaded over gross. I regret not finding a way to have a local FAA rep stop by his hangar for a casual visit one afternoon. If I had been wrong, then it would have inconvenienced him for a 1/2 hour, if I was right, maybe those three passengers would still be around for their families.
 
DreadPirateWill said:
It seems folks come here looking for validation for reporting people to the FAA. Sometimes, that's the correct thing to do. More often though things can be handled more effectively at a more local level. If you have to take away Grandpa's Buick keys do you start by calling state patrol?
Click to expand...

I generally agree with that, which is why I suggested talking with the chief instructor or school owner. Try to handle problems at a lower level whenever possible, but don’t ignore them.
 
Half Fast said:
"Snitching" is when your little sister tells mom you took a cookie.

Failing to do anything about an illegal and dangerous breach of aviation regs is ignoring a moral obligation.
Click to expand...

Even when there is no breach of regulations, differences of personal risk levels can come into play when one pilot butts into the actions of another pilot they don't know anything about, then speaks out behind their backs as a "moral obligation". IMO this is a type of snitching, and cowardly. (@Half Fast: Not implying you, but anyone)

My experience with snitching occurred one morning (daylight). The weather was typical rain, falling from smooth stratus clouds with a near zero chance of encountering icing or convection anywhere. A nice tailwind above the clouds, and the departure was headed away from the rainy weather system. Not low IFR, not unusual and certainly not the type of life threatening event that would require a discussion or intervention behind my back.

As a lineman held an umbrella, I loaded luggage, preflighted and supervised fueling. My nervous passenger wife was inside, standing at a FBO window watching. A stranger approached, asked if I was her husband, qualified himself as an experienced pilot, then proceeded to authoritatively inform her I was crazy to even consider taking off into this kind of dangerous weather with her on board.

Coming back into the FBO to pay the bill then depart, it was clearly evident she was upset. The stranger was gone, and I was stuck defusing her heightened anxiety. The opportunity to discuss anything with this guy didn't happen, and I was stuck with the aftermath.

Point being, if you're considering reporting someone as a "moral obligation", make sure you (or somebody) takes the time to first discuss the concerns directly with the pilot before any involvement reaching the level of the FAA.
 
I read replies, and wonder if I need to justify my reported CFI pilot deviation. Then I re-read the OPs post, and if it's accurate realized I have no need to justify reporting a CFI with a new student breaking at least three FARs, and now I wonder why other pilots would not be reporting the PD. Oh well.
 
Barrett50 said:
I read replies, and wonder if I need to justify my reported CFI pilot deviation. Then I re-read the OPs post, and if it's accurate realized I have no need to justify reporting a CFI with a new student breaking at least three FARs, and now I wonder why other pilots would not be reporting the PD. Oh well.
Click to expand...

I believe the anonymous "student" who started this thread is the person (first person witness) who if he desires can contact the FAA and file a report. If true and accurate, it was a terrible breach of training protocol to set such a bad example to a student. As such, IMO a report is in order, but only from the person who experienced it firsthand.
 
If you think it’s a bad idea, don’t get in the plane. You don’t have to risk your life just because someone else is willing to risk theirs.
 
DreadPirateWill said:
Second - we've got your side of the story here. What you've described is concerning for sure. That said, while FAA regs are explicit on cloud clearance - I've yet to encounter an airplane with a laser or parallax device to give me foot level accuracy on distance from clouds in every direction. I've met a number of student pilots who interpret a little on the conservative side(which is good!). If you no kidding climbed through a 150' cloud deck you couldn't see through, that's a problem.
Click to expand...
This is the thing that makes me pause on joining the chorus to never fly with this instructor, report them, etc...

Was the 800ft layer really a layer? or...could have it just been a whispy sort of thing where you never really lost ground contact or lost required visibility?
and maybe the hole you dropped through really did offer the required clearances, but it just seemed close to you because you've never really been 3,000 ft from a cloud before, let alone 2,000 ft?

Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that the OP was uncomfortable and this should have been handled differently

but one of my frustrations with instruction has been an overall lack of real-world, real-weather experience in the general CFI pool. I've just had the feeling that so many of the instructors I've flown with... especially the young and green ones...don't have much, if any, actual weather experience and are products of an over-reactionary system
 
I'm more concerned with the law of primacy.."go to the airport and you fly no matter what". Great lesson for that CFI to be teaching. Should'a worked a ground lessons on that day....
 
bbchien said:
I'm more concerned with the law of primacy.."go to the airport and you fly no matter what". Great lesson for that CFI to be teaching. Should'a worked a ground lessons on that day....
Click to expand...

Sounds like a great opportunity for the student to break out a couple of No-Go Decision Confirmation Devices and hand one to the CFI, thus grounding them both for eight hours.
 
Greetings from Europe! First of all, excellent Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) on your part. Trust your gut—your assessment of the weather and the risks was 100% correct.

From an aviation safety and SMS perspective, what your instructor demonstrated is a textbook example of 'normalization of deviance' and a hazardous attitude. An instrument rating does not grant anyone the right to punch through clouds in Class E airspace without an IFR clearance. Diving through a 'sucker hole' to get back down, leaving zero options for a safe go-around, is exactly how fatal accidents happen.

You are absolutely right to feel unsafe. If this were happening at a flight school over here under EASA, the Head of Training / Chief CFI would need to know about this immediately before this instructor kills themselves or a student.

Refuse to fly with this CFI again, and have a serious, confidential chat with the school's management. You are already thinking like a safe Pilot in Command, don't let a bad instructor ruin that. Fly safe!
 
Back
Top