What Would You Do: Pre-Buy

Tom-D said:
Here we are, discussing who should fix what, how much it should cost, when we don't even know if the aircraft has a clean title.

Does the Buyer have the FAA history record CD in hand?
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Does an aircraft have a "title". Are loans or liens required to be on file with the FAA? Seems to me the only sure way for a buyer to protect himself is with title insurance.
 
vintage cessna said:
Does an aircraft have a "title". Are loans or liens required to be on file with the FAA? Seems to me the only sure way for a buyer to protect himself is with title insurance.
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To say it simple, the FAA will not transfer title to the new owner until they see a lien release.
 
Tom-D said:
To say it simple, the FAA will not transfer title to the new owner until they see a lien release.
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Yes, but liens aren't required to be registered with the FAA. A lending institution that does aircraft loans will most likely register with the FAA, but other sources of loans may not.
 
vintage cessna said:
Yes, but liens aren't required to be registered with the FAA. A lending institution that does aircraft loans will most likely register with the FAA, but other sources of loans may not.
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And So, do we know the aircraft/buyer did the home work?
 
Tom-D said:
And So, do we know the aircraft/buyer did the home work?
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I don't know. Even if the buyer has checked with the FAA, there could still be someone who could make a legitimate claim to the aircraft.
 
Skylane81E said:
Title searches are cheap and a must
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Yes, title searches are cheap because some guy or gal in OKC makes a short visit to the FAA records office. You are only determining if there are any claims on file with the FAA.

If that was good enough title insurance would be cheap also.
 
Let's say he does. Does that mean no lien has been filed?

Tom-D said:
Here we are, discussing who should fix what, how much it should cost, when we don't even know if the aircraft has a clean title.

Does the Buyer have the FAA history record CD in hand?
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BTW, it seems the FAA has a policy to keep these title search companies in business, since the only way to view the records is in person in OKC.
 
Tom-D said:
To say it simple, the FAA will not transfer title to the new owner until they see a lien release.
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There are no "titles" on aircraft. A person can sell an aircraft to another individual by simply signing a FAA bill of sale.

The FAA cannot stop the sale of an airplane if a lien exist. It's incumbent on the buyer to do the research and determine if any liens exist.
 
How would you change it if you were in charge of the agency?

vintage cessna said:
BTW, it seems the FAA has a policy to keep these title search companies in business, since the only way to view the records is in person in OKC.
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So anybody in the world can see the details of every financing document on any airplane in the fleet?

vintage cessna said:
Put the documents on line or charge a nominal fee for mailing, faxing or E-mailing copies.
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wabower said:
So anybody in the world can see the details of every financing document on any airplane in the fleet?
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I don't see any privacy issues, since the documents are available for viewing by anyone, not just search companies.
 
Yes, I'm using an OK City escrow and title search company. Things are going fine on that end.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
There are no "titles" on aircraft. A person can sell an aircraft to another individual by simply signing a FAA bill of sale.

The FAA cannot stop the sale of an airplane if a lien exist. It's incumbent on the buyer to do the research and determine if any liens exist.
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The aircraft can be sold with out any paper work being processed. happens all the time. I know of several aircraft that went thru 5-10 owners before and bill of sale was registered.

As long as you have a bill of sale with the last registered owner signing off you are good to go.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
There are no "titles" on aircraft. A person can sell an aircraft to another individual by simply signing a FAA bill of sale.

The FAA cannot stop the sale of an airplane if a lien exist. It's incumbent on the buyer to do the research and determine if any liens exist.
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Proving one more time you are not knowledgable enough to be who you claim to be.

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...cation/aircraft_registry/media/AFS-750-93.pdf

Right out of the FAA web page.
 
Tom-D said:
Here we are, discussing who should fix what, how much it should cost, when we don't even know if the aircraft has a clean title.
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Probably because that's not the issue he asked for help/opinions on.
 
Tom-D said:
Proving one more time you are not knowledgable enough to be who you claim to be.

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...cation/aircraft_registry/media/AFS-750-93.pdf

Right out of the FAA web page.
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Now you're trying to twist what you said. In case you forgot, here's your (unfounded) claim:

Tom-D said:
To say it simple, the FAA will not transfer title to the new owner until they see a lien release.
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So please show us what this "title" to an aircraft looks like and where it can be found? Since the FAA uses numbers on all of it's forms, what's the number on an aircraft "title" form?

Also please show us where the FAA will not "transfer title to the new owner until they see a lien release" (your words).

The document you submitted (AFS-750-93) details how to record liens and encumbrances (standard procedure). Please show us in this document where, as you claim, the FAA issues a "title".
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
The document you submitted (AFS-750-93) details how to record liens and encumbrances (standard procedure). Please show us in this document where, as you claim, the FAA issues a "title".
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You apparently do not understand what the title document is.
 
Tom-D said:
if there is no title document why does 750 mention it so many times?
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You currently own an airplane. If you have a "title" on it what is the FAA Form number?

You're the one that claimed such a form exist and the FAA wouldn't allow someone to take title if a lien existed.

Back up your claim, show everyone where that is written.


Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus.
 
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Unlike the DMV, the FAA does not issue titles. A record search in OKC will only reveal if any liens have been recorded with the FAA, which is not a requirement. For all you know the sellers Uncle Joe is holding a note with the plane as collateral.

A decision on whether or not to protect yourself with insurance against claims of interest in the aircraft you purchased depends on your tolerance for risk.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You currently own an airplane. If you have a "title" on it what is the FAA Form number?

You're the one that claimed such a form exist and the FAA wouldn't allow someone to take title if a lien existed.

Back up your claim, show everyone where that is written.


Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus.
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the basic question you forget is "what is a title document"?

and yes I do have one. as do you if you own an airworthy aircraft.

What does a title document do, but to declare ownership, and what document is that to the FAA, and what document won't they transfer with all liens cleared?

Any ASI should know that, because with out one you can't touch it.

And as far as the rest of your statement read this
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/clear_titles/

they will not transfer title until you clear all liens.
 
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Tom-D said:
the basic question you forget is "what is a title document"?

and yes I do have one. as do you if you own an airworthy aircraft.

What does a title document do, but to declare ownership, and what document is that to the FAA, and what document won't they transfer with all liens cleared?

Any ASI should know that, because with out one you can't touch it.
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I own an airplane and the only documents I have from the FAA are the AW cert and registration. Are you saying one or both of those documents is the "title document"?

How can the FAA know all liens are cleared if a lien isn't recorded with the FAA?
 
vintage cessna said:
I own an airplane and the only documents I have from the FAA are the AW cert and registration. Are you saying one or both of those documents is the "title document"?

How can the FAA know all liens are cleared if a lien isn't recorded with the FAA?
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they won't.

There you go, that is what the FAA considers a title document.

Title documents can take many forms, DMVs use a separate document, but the FAA does not, the only form of ownership the FAA recognizes is the registration, and the if the aircraft does not have one it is not recognized as a US aircraft and the FAA can't touch it with out proper authority from OKC and or a judgement.

AWC no.
 
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Tom-D said:
they won't.

There you go, that is what the FAA considers a title document.

Title documents can take many forms, DMVs use a separate document, but the FAA does not, the only form of ownership the FAA recognizes is the registration, and the if the aircraft does not have one it is not recognized as a US aircraft and the FAA can't touch it with out proper authority from OKC and or a judgement.

AWC no.
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This is getting too bizarre for me. Adios.
 
Tom-D said:
and the if the aircraft does not have one it is not recognized as a US aircraft and the FAA can't touch it with out proper authority from OKC......
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And who is that "proper authority" from OKC? Which branch of the FAA is that?


Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus
 
...did anyone tell Ron Levy this was about a Grumman (smile). Seriously, he may well know the seller and the airplane and may be able to tell the OP if it's an issue or not.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
And who is that "proper authority" from OKC? Which branch of the FAA is that?


Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus
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Sorry, that information is irrelevant to me; that is unless I am responding to my FAA registered email or snail mail (parents) address. In that case I just reply/respond/present myself as directly as indicated/made possible having included flying into a meeting with Regional Counsel and an ASE<?> at Meechum. That one led to a meeting that went like this: "Soooo, this was an Ag training accident?" "Yes maam, during our training's internship pilot position phase you often begin with fertilizer as there is no state applicators license requirements as with harmful pesticide. It was strongly suggested by the Operators client that the fertilizer get on in front of the front and rain. I wasn't planning on flying, but considered the request, looked at the DTN and figured that if the plane was loaded ready to fly I could make it. It was ready, and I had the timing almost right right; I missed it by half a swath. In the middle of the last swath which was uphill into about a 40 kt wind, nothing I would ever put down anything but organic fish gut fertilizer in, when suddenly it turned into a 35 kt quartering tailwind and with the wind that strong I was close to the application target when I ran out of altitude and lift providing relative wind at the same moment." Then I went on to detail my observations of the process of actively giving conscious thought to everything I was doing crashing the plane; keep the tail down, wings level and things going in a straight line as well as other observation of/during time dilation.

After that she (counsel) looked from the folder to the Safety dude and asked "why are we here?" to which she received a :dunno: from he and a "well I'm here because I got this here letter saying I had to show up or the US Marshals will come collect my Airman's Cert" from me (using the extreme example of the 'appear or we will take action against your certificate' verbiage in the letter)

They huddled for about 10 seconds then she turned and said "I can't make an official comment at this point but you can expect a letter within the next 2 weeks clearing this matter with nothing on your record." and that's exactly what happened with the NTSB
 
Rotor&Wing said:
And who is that "proper authority" from OKC? Which branch of the FAA is that?


Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus
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See if you can touch a Canadian aircraft with out OKC authority.

I'd love to see you try.
 
Any thing old rotor can't look up on line he can't figure out for him self.

Every ASI in the FAA knows the most important document on the aircraft is the registration. So with out a registration they don't know if it is a US aircraft or not, and they only have jurisdiction over US registered aircraft.

Day 1, lesson 1, at the FAA academy and Rotor didn't know that.
 
Tom-D said:
Every ASI in the FAA knows the most important document on the aircraft is the registration. So with out a registration they don't know if it is a US aircraft or not, and they only have jurisdiction over US registered aircraft.
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What about those registration numbers on the side that start with "N"?

Or what about that data plate with a serial number that corresponds with a US registered aircraft?

Tom-D said:
See if you can touch a Canadian aircraft with out OKC authority.

I'd love to see you try.
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The point I'm trying to make, and you're avoiding, is who in OKC has this "authority" you constantly write about. Which department of the FAA in OKC is this?

Tom-D said:
Day 1, lesson 1, at the FAA academy and Rotor didn't know that.
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So you've attended String Training at OKC and know the curriculum?



Falsus in uno, Falsus in omnibus
 
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Henning said:
Sorry, that information is irrelevant to me; that is unless I am responding to my FAA registered email or snail mail (parents) address. In that case I just reply/respond/present myself as directly as indicated/made possible having included flying into a meeting with Regional Counsel and an ASE at Meechum. That one led to a meeting that went like this: "Soooo, this was an Ag training accident?" "Yes maam, during our training's internship pilot position phase you often begin with fertilizer as there is no state applicators license requirements as with harmful pesticide. It was strongly suggested by the Operators client that the fertilizer get on in front of the front and rain. I wasn't planning on flying, but considered the request, looked at the DTN and figured that if the plane was loaded ready to fly I could make it. It was ready, and I had the timing almost right right; I missed it by half a swath. In the middle of the last swath which was uphill into about a 40 kt wind, nothing I would ever put down anything but organic fish gut fertilizer in, when suddenly it turned into a 35 kt quartering tailwind and with the wind that strong I was close to the application target when I ran out of altitude and lift providing relative wind at the same moment." Then I went on to detail my observations of the process of actively giving conscious thought to everything I was doing crashing the plane; keep the tail down, wings level and things going in a straight line as well as other observation of/during time dilation.

After that she (counsel) looked from the folder to the Safety dude and asked "why are we here?" to which she received a :dunno: from he and a "well I'm here because I got this here letter saying I had to show up or the US Marshals will come collect my Airman's Cert" from me (using the extreme example of the 'appear or we will take action against your certificate' verbiage in the letter)

They huddled for about 10 seconds then she turned and said "I can't make an official comment at this point but you can expect a letter within the next 2 weeks clearing this matter with nothing on your record." and that's exactly what happened with the NTSB
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Sorry Henning, but that post is one of the biggest loads of BS you have posted here.

Tom Clancy once said "The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. "

Your latest story is right up there with the exploding barge story.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
What about those registration numbers on the side that start with "N"?
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If it doesn't have a Registration is the N number any good.

Rotor&Wing said:
what about that data plate with a serial number that corresponds with a US registered aircraft?
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Canadian aircraft have S/N and Data tags, do you have jurisdiction?


Rotor&Wing said:
point I'm trying to make, and you're avoiding, is who in OKC has this "authority" you constantly write about. Which department of the FAA in OKC is this?
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It's the same guy who signed the PDF I linked above ASF 750. you should read the link.


Rotor&Wing said:
you've attended String Training at OKC and know the curriculum?
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No but the guy coaching me did.

Asking all these questions are you trying to catch up on your home work.

Just don't have a clue on how the FAA works = phony.
 
Mr. Cake said:
Oh, we are talking about a Grumman Tiger.
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Who is the Grumman expert? There are about half a dozen you can trust on an airplane you've never even seen. Contact me offline (PM or email) if you want to talk about it. In any event, the handling of this sort of issue is usually agreed between seller and buyer before agreeing on a price. At this point, as things appear to have been done, everything remains negotiable.
 
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