What would you do? (pilot runway confusion)

woodstock

woodstock

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Yesterday as we were taxiing to 17 there was one person in the pattern for 17 and another guy who seemed to be overflying the airport (couldn't tell what he was doing - he was at TPA but not even remotely in the correct pattern). I commented to my CFI "what is that guy doing, I hope he isn't setting up for 35, that is what it looks like".

The gentleman in the 17 pattern (the correct runway for the winds, and the one we were all using) called base for 17. We then heard another voice call "downwind for 17, behind the other plane". The aforementioned plane had been heading for downwind 35 but since we were already on the taxiway I couldn't see behind me to see if it was that guy or not but I had a feeling it was. I told my CFI I was going to make a radio call to tell him that the runway was 17 and he was heading for 35 (not knowing for sure it was that guy) and he said "don't".

Sure enough, the plane on short final for 17 landed and then I heard confused guy say "there appears to be a plane on the runway, I am going around". He sounded confused - it's those darn wrong way runway users, messing him up! hahaha.

Sure enough, he went around and called for 17 again and headed back around. By this point we were doing runup and I could see him and the whole runway. He started heading to 35 downwind again and since I had no idea if he had caught on yet, as soon as he called 17 downwind again I made a radio call "um, the plane that just called is on 35 downwind, are you aware of that? we are using 17" My CFI made a move to move my mike hand - I guess he didn't want me to make the call or wanted to see if the guy would figure himself out or not. The pilot immediately said "(tail number) heading for 17 crosswind".

Personally I would have made the mike call the first time but my CFI then said not to (I guess because we couldn't see him and didn't know if there was another plane out there we would then have messed up).

thoughts? Would my radio call one (not made) have been a bad idea, and was radio call two (actually made )a bad idea or rude or something?

My thoughts are etiquette be damned, the guy had no idea which runway he was using. Granted the pattern was fairly quiet - the other guy had already exited. Is there something I am not thinking of though? The airport is uncontrolled if that wasn't apparent already.
 
Sounds like he was a calling 17, but landing 35? I would have made the call right away letting him know it looked like he was reciprocated.
 
I'd ask the CFI why not. I feel a call was in order.
 
If the guy clearly was confused about what runway he was setting up for, then a call- informational, not confrontational- was entirely in order. It is shared airspace, and safety is the sole goal.

Ya done good.
 
Eh.. I think it depends. If the winds are really howling in favor of 17 (to the point that it would be an issue landing with a tailwind on 35) I would probably say something - he/she might just be a student pilot having a brain fart and helping them get straightened out could prevent a botched landing.

If it's just a slight wind, and it looks like they're in control of the plane and they aren't really screwing up the pattern by delaying other a/c, etc. then I would probably just wait for them to land and let them figure it out themselves.

In the case that I DO make a radio call, I would probably say something like "277DL is holding short for departure on 17 for the a/c approaching to 35" and see if they figure it out.

That's a very situational scenario. No such thing as a blanket answer. I'd be curious why your instructor is so adamant about not making the radio call.
 
my CFI said he would figure it out and then as it happened he didn't - he went around. I think I'm a little more aggressive on CTAF with that sort of thing. One time a guy cut me off on short final and I made it clear to him that he had - my CFI again tried to move my mike hand. I figure the guy that time hadn't seen me and chewing him out was a good educational experience - but is that wrong? (It wasn't like I was cussing!)
 
hit and run bad thread vote? puhleez. frankly this is completely common sense to me - and why my CFI didn't like that I called it makes NO sense to me so I figured there must be something I am missing here.
 
ps. winds were 10G15 straight down the 17 runway. initially anyway - I think later they were about 30 degrees off.
 
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Calling right away would have been the nice and safe thing to do. he was obviously making a mistake. Shoot I was landing runway 9 one morning and called runway 27 and I appreciated when I called the downwind for 27 that the guy in the FBO reminded me that I was on downwind for 9 just glad no one else was around to hear my mistake.
 
Michael said:
Who does that sh*t. What an .....
Its people who pull that crap that push me farther away from these boards.
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woodstock said:
hit and run bad thread vote? puhleez. frankly this is completely common sense to me - and why my CFI didn't like that I called it makes NO sense to me so I figured there must be something I am missing here.
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Did I miss something?
 
For me, it could go either way. If I was sure the guy was just screwed up and thinking he was landing on the opposite runway he thought he was I probably would've said something. In the other situation of being cut off, I probably wouldn't. I would think saying, "N12345 is going around for traffic," would get the message across without chewing the other pilot out. If you're curious about your CFI's reasoning you should ask him because anything we could say here is only a guess.
 
I did ask actually - he said it wasn't clear the first time that he was doing anything wrong (yet). I still think I'm erring on the side of being safe. I think Kaye mentioned that once on our field she was on take off and a plane tried to land on the opposite runway - straight in, not in the pattern. I still prefer uncontrolled airports but see how things like this can happen.
 
woodstock said:
my CFI said he would figure it out and then as it happened he didn't - he went around. I think I'm a little more aggressive on CTAF with that sort of thing. One time a guy cut me off on short final and I made it clear to him that he had - my CFI again tried to move my mike hand. I figure the guy that time hadn't seen me and chewing him out was a good educational experience - but is that wrong? (It wasn't like I was cussing!)
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I'm with you on this one, Elizabeth. If you see a situation that is potentially unsafe, best to make a non-threatening call on CTAF. The situation you saw had the potential to cause an accident because of the confusion.

We get a similar situation at my home airport all the time because it has a non-standard traffic pattern -- fixed wing to the south, helicopters to the north. Periodically a fixed wing will try to make left traffic for 9, or having heard a helicopter announce right downwind or base for 27, will think 27 has right traffic for fixed wing too. All it takes is a simple call: Cessna1234x, runway 27 is left traffic for fixed wing, right traffic for helicopters.

PS: I just gave you 5 stars!
 
woodstock said:
I did ask actually - he said it wasn't clear the first time that he was doing anything wrong (yet). I still think I'm erring on the side of being safe.
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Ultimately I think you have to whatever you think is right, especially after you are out there on your own. Despite what the poster says, CFIs are not God. Or is it ATPs who are God. :confused: You'll find that different CFIs have their own set of opinions just like the pilots on this board. ;) I think that as long as you are doing things safely and not blatantly wrong you should be fine.
 
To err on the side of safety is NEVER wrong... most has been said here, so no need for me to repeat it. But there is one thing I would like to add.

I would NOT take the runway, until I was absolutely certain what this other confused pilot was going to do! Either after he had actually landed, or at a time when I was sure he could not make a move which could possibly compromise my departure/ safety.
 
I have been known to make a call, "aircraft at nnnn be advised...." On my handheld, "Stearman landing at nnnn be advised the winds at nnn are now favoring nn" That was followed by "Stearman overflying to check the windsock" and the Stearman landing on the opposite runway.

Nobody has ever told me shut up. I know *I* would always appreciate the advice.
 
Seems like this guy thought he WAS going to 17 and not 35. Hard to see how clarification of the wind would fix his confusion when he was THAT confused about what he was doing. Make the call, and don't be subtle about it. The guy landing on 17 was head-on with him, and if the timing had been a little different or the 17 plane had to go around too they could have been head-on for real. Seems like the wind was clearly for 17 in this case, and this guy was aware of that much.

On the other hand, sometimes the wind at an uncontrolled airport is not so clear. A couple of times I departed using 33, and came back 30 minutes later to find they were still using 33 but the wind was now favoring 15. The other day I came back to find everyone using 15 and having some trouble with a left crosswind because of adjacent buildings. On downwind for 15 another pilot who just landed suggested the wind had shifted enough to favor 33 with a right crosswind. I turned base for 15 and reported I was making this a crosswind for 33, and then turned downwind for 33. The next plane conformed to the change, and we all knew what was happening and where the others were. Could have been confusing to someone without a radio though.

Turned out the right crosswind on 33 was just as much trouble as the left had been on 15 because of trees near the runway. But the point is pilots ought to be talking about what they are doing and why, when in the pattern - especially when a wind shift changes the favored runway. One of my partners has said he does not fly with much wind out of the east, because of what it does on short final at this airport. Interesting to watch though. Pavement is just 40 feet wide with trees and buildings fairly close, and people get pushed right off the runway at 10 feet AGL or less, and need to go-around or shift and land at midfield. The other day several people were just sitting around the airport office watching the returning planes trying to get down.
 
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maybe it's just my newfound cockiness post-solo! I just remembered my other mike-assertiveness was on the dual-XC I did after my solo. we came back at night and when I was set up to land another guy bumbled out in front of me and lined up. we were on SHORT final too may I add - not merely "short". (and I didn't chew him a new one, I only said "plane taking off, did you not see the plane you cut off on short final??" )
 
Elizabeth,

I have a really poor sense of numerical compass direction. While I have an excellent sense of where N,S,E, and W are (most of the time) that doesn't translate into a certain number of degrees, or vice-versa. If you tell me the active is 17, that doesn't translate into "South" in my head. Dunno why that is. So I've learned never to approach a strange airport without an airport diagram handy and I correllate the diagram with my direction of approach, etc. But I still manage to screw it up and get the reciprocal about once a year or so. I would have very much appreciated your callout as soon as you noticed I was going around the pattern the wrong way.

OTOH, if I inadvertantly cut you off I don't think a chewing out would be in order. A simple "Pardon me but you cut me off" should yield an "Ooops, sorry!" if it really was inadvertant. You'll find out quickly enough if the guy is a jerk <g>.

I suspect your instructor is trying to teach you communications "by the book." There's nothing in the book about the kinds of communications you're mentioning here which could be why he's discouraging them. Overall I like your philosphy of speaking up - just be careful of what you say because the radio is as impersonal as email, especially when we're all trying to be clipped and efficient and sound like professional pilots.

Regards,
Joe
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Seems like this guy thought he WAS going to 17 and not 35. Hard to see how clarification of the wind would fix his confusion when he was THAT confused about what he was doing. Make the call, and don't be subtle about it. The guy landing on 17 was head-on with him, and if the timing had been a little different or the 17 plane had to go around too they could have been head-on for real. Seems like the wind was clearly for 17 in this case, and this guy was aware of that much.

On the other hand, sometimes the wind at an uncontrolled airport is not so clear. A couple of times I departed using 33, and came back 30 minutes later to find they were still using 33 but the wind was now favoring 15. The other day I came back to find everyone using 15 and having some trouble with a left crosswind because of adjacent buildings. On downwind for 15 another pilot who just landed suggested the wind had shifted enough to favor 33 with a right crosswind. I turned base for 15 and reported I was making this a crosswind for 33, and then turned downwind for 33. The next plane conformed to the change, and we all knew what was happening and where the others were. Could have been confusing to someone without a radio though.

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The shifting wind was the situation when I called the Stearman. I mainly gave the warning because I had just landed. This was when I was soloing pre-checkride I had switched runway intentions a few times when I saw the windsock swinging.

My CFI hates it when pilots talk plane to plane on the Common Traffic Advisory Frequency - even calls such as "Cessna, do you have the Piper in sight?" - but once when we did a dual to Lake Lawn after they had changed the CTAF frequency, we monitored the old one and he made several warnings on the old CTAF that the frequency had changed.
 
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Your CFI was right the first time - if he's not a danger to anyone else, let him learn from his mistake.

You were right the second time - he didn't learn from his mistake, and you informed him of the issue. You didn't seem to be obnoxious about it, so your CFI should have either been cool with it, or had a discussion afterwards until you were both equally happy/unhappy with your positions.

There's a fine line requiring judgement between correcting/berating someone on the radio and "nudging" them a little so their brain engages. You did good.
 
Here's my take on it. The right time to call would have been the first time, when there was a conflict. Your CFI should be less worried about "saying the right thing" and more concerned with being a good person that can help others avoid what could be a costly mistake.

The second time around, I probably would have let him land since there was no conflict. Maybe after he landed made a joking comment like "Looks like they painted the numbers backwards" or something.

I'm not coming down on your CFI, but I think he made a bad choice, personally.
 
Go with your gut on this one. Your call was correct. You saw a potentially unsafe situation and did what was necessary to correct it. Way to go.
 
Post incident evaluation:

Scenario 1: Radio call on initial mistake.
The best that can happen: Both pilots are warned of problem and take appropriate action. Errant pilot reviews his decision-making.
The worst that can happen: Errant pilot gets angry.

Scenario 2: No radio call on initial mistake.
The best that can happen: No incident.
The worst that can happen: Mid-air or runway accident.

Scenario 3: Radio call on second mistake.
The best that can happen: Pilot is warned and takes appropriate action. Pilot reviews reasons error occurred.
The worst that can happen: Errant pilot gets angry.

Scenario 4: No radio call on second mistake.
The best that can happen: No incident.
The worst that can happen: Pilot does not realized a mistake was made and does not review cause.

No brainer. Avoiding a mid-air crash wins over making another pilot miffed anytime.

Good job!
 
AuntPeggy said:
No brainer. Avoiding a mid-air crash wins over making another pilot miffed anytime.
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Ditto!

The mandate for safe airspace overrides anyone's right not to be offended and/or violate accepted standards and practices (FARs).
 
I've certainly seen pi.ots calling for the opposite runway from the one they're using in the past. I think it's better to give them a FRIENDLY warning up front, as you suggest, rather than waiting, hoping that they'll recognize their mistake. While I like the policy of the board: "compliment in public, deride in private" (or something like that :)), it's really not possible on the radio. So, make the "corrections" as non-incendiary as possible, and be reasonably certain that you're right, or at least that a resonable possibility of confusion exists that needs to be rectified. If the end result is that someone does an unnecessary go-around, then so-be-it. A LOT better than having an unnecessary collision!
 
A few years ago, a friend in his RV8 had landed at Auburn, IN for the car auction and was forced off the runway into the grass by a Bonanza reporting the same pattern John had just completed however he landed on the opposite runway.

Make the call.

Gary
 
Troy Whistman said:
I think you did the right thing. Safety wins over ego, every day.
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Not only that, the guy may have actually appreciated the call... being corrected on a mistake is not necessarily an ego destroying event. A mid air or downwind landing has the potential for being much more damaging.
 
I'll take embarassment over bent metal or busted skin every day. I think the call was the right move.
 
direct, but friendly

Henning hit the nail on the head. The time to have spoken up was when you first noticed him heading for the wrong runway. His safety could have been jeopardized by landing w/ a tailwind. And there's no need to give him subtle clues so he can figure it out himself and definitely no need to chew him out. We're all adults and we've all made mistakes. I would very much appreciate someone telling me that it looks like I'm heading for runway 35, not runway 17. Direct, but friendly.

Is there any pilot here that at one time or another hasn't called the opposite runway or even the wrong direction they're headed. (i.e. you're on an east heading and you tell ATC that you're "8 miles east with Bravo....uhhh...make that 8 miles west with Bravo".)
 
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