What twin to buy?

wesleyj said:
actually late model 95s have same seating as C,D,E model barons.
But not the same payload as the 260-285HP Barons, I don't think you'd find five people, a dog, and baggage a comfortable ride for 400nm in even a 55 Baron, and 55 Barons don't come with club seating.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
John, great insight! The only minor place I disagree, and it's not germain to this discussion is adding the 58P. Those are not 550s, but the 325 HP IO-520s on my plane would (and have) done just fine at gross on one fan.





Dave

I didnt include the P58, also not the early 58 with the IO520s, they didnt quite have the getup and go of the straight barons with the 520s, now if you want a real speed merchant, that will haul anything you can close the doors on find a 56TC, what a ride. Never had a baron with yaw dampener, dont need it if you fly it right.
 
Ken,

Did we knock Aztecs out of the running? The single door is not as nice as the door set up on Senecas and Barons but they are roomy once you get in. Might not be too bad if you are typically fiying you and one other. Besides the advert below there are a few others that might suite you. - Len

1971 AZTEC-E, TT-4000, 500/500 SMOH, Altimatic V AP/FD w/slaved HSI coupled to IFR Garmin 155 GPS, KX155, KX125 w/GS, KMA24 audio panel, dual KT76 Txpndrs, Apollo 618 Loran, WX9 stormscope, 6 pl. intercom, Avionics Master, strobes, wing/prop deice, new Janitrol, 10K annual done Aug/05. $80K. John, AR/(501) 425-0207. jdeloach@aol.com
 
Ron Levy said:
But not the same payload as the 260-285HP Barons, I don't think you'd find five people, a dog, and baggage a comfortable ride for 400nm in even a 55 Baron, and 55 Barons don't come with club seating.
Have you seen Ibold's kids? Whole family is probably 700 pounds. Dog- eighty? 400 nm is only 480 pounds of fuel with a nice reserve....

Look fellas, the budget is $110K. Baron Ain't gonna happen.
 
Ron Levy said:
But not the same payload as the 260-285HP Barons, I don't think you'd find five people, a dog, and baggage a comfortable ride for 400nm in even a 55 Baron, and 55 Barons don't come with club seating.

Travel Air will do it, and if they aren't to heavy, it'll still carry 4.5 hrs of fuel. It *will* climb on one at gross (could possibly have been over with the anchor chain) on a warmer than standard evening, I know this for a fact because I am alive to write this. You have to be or get clean in a hurry, but she'll go. I had her on one three times in 10 years and she never dissapointed me and got me to a runway, once into Oakland with a 75' ceiling. I would recommend one with the turbo normalizing though, adds a lot to mission capability. Above 12,500 I'd walk away from 55 series barons (which is a Travel Air on steroids, hence their type BE 95-55). With the BDS Speed Slope windshield, I'd see 170 kts @ 10,500 using 18.2 gph total. Oh, and if you think the 55 handles nice, a buddy of mine who had one got into mine and flew it and said his handled like a truck in comparison. If you want a Baron that rock though, skip all the rest and get the 56 TC. Boy howdy that plane skoots. Passes everything but the gas station. 10.2 hrs to Honolulu from Santa Barbra, 52 gph.
 
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SCCutler said:

While I love flying Aerostars and may one day own a 701 Machen for my own plane (sometime I'm just a glutten for punishment). I could never in good conscience recommend one to someone who did not already love one. They're like an affair with a Femme Fatal. They take everything you have, and you thank them for the ride. On par for maint costs with a 421. Good economy though, fast on its fuel. NOT a forgiving airplane, but then again she's not really a taskmaster either. A good pilot will enjoy her. If you ever get one, let me know. I'll put you in touch with an instructor who was Ted Smiths test pilot. They fly well and they fly fast, and it takes a lot of money to keep them doing it. They are high stress, high strung airplanes. What I find interesting is that they use the straight valve engine rather than the canted valve. Just listen to the cam note of one next time you see one taxi. When you hear that sound, it = $$$ no matter in a car, boat or airplane. There some rather expensive AD's on them that I'm unsure of the current status of.
 
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Still have to go with Aztec here!
Useful load, decent speed, availability, and great prices with a whole lot of plane.
Just my 2 cents.
 
Henning said:
If you want a Baron that rock though, skip all the rest and get the 56 TC. Boy howdy that plane skoots. Passes everything but the gas station. 10.2 hrs to Honolulu from Santa Barbra, 52 gph.

Wow, that'd be expensive to operate these days!! How did you get 600 gallons in a 56TC? That's a BIG ferry tank!!

The 56TC was only made for a few years in the late 60's / early 70's... I think 90-something were built IIRC. Are parts an issue, or do they share parts with the rest of the Baron series?
 
Originally Posted by Henning
Passes everything but the gas station. 10.2 hrs to Honolulu from Santa Barbra, 52 gph.

AirBaker said:
Now THAT is a lot of gas...

You bet, she'd choad fuel like Linda Lovelace would choad...nevermind. The reson I didn't buy one though was the cost of doing the engines. I had a deal lined up on one that was a coke runner that was landed OEI in the middle of the night and just left on the ramp. Problem was even then and with me working at a shop where the labor to rebuild the entire aircraft would be free, I couldn't make the 56 TC work out. $40,000 a side if my cranks were usable, that didn't touch the props (chewed to hell from sand and gravel strips) or accessories. I figured out that it would cost me $190k to have a plane that I could buy a good, low time, always been kept nice one for $150k. It would cost a lot to fly, although if you pulled it back to 45% power and fly at Travel Air speeds it would only use twice as much as the Travel Air:D . However, one doesn't buy a 56 TC to cruise at 45% does one. That baby would smoke though.

I decided on a compromise, a Turbonormalized Travel Air. It was a very good plane to me and very economical to operate. I guess airframe parts are becoming an issue, but you can still buy the mag tail skins new (at least you could 5 years ago. Only those and the T-34 use them so there must still be some around). All the other mag skins have STC aluminum replacements. In 10 years I never had problems finding parts for mine, but as time goes on things change....
 
Has anyone here ever spent two and a half hours in a TravelAir with five people (including two small kids) and an 80-lb dog? And where does the baggage go? I know you can put all that in an Aztec, although someone's going to be sitting next to the dog, as the crate for a dog that big won't fit through the baggage door -- the only thing you give up is the club seating. But I just don't see it working out in a 2x180 HP TravelAir. I think you need the extra 40HP and the cabin arrangement of the Seneca to make that trip work with anything less than 12 cylinders.
 
Troy Whistman said:
Wow, that'd be expensive to operate these days!! How did you get 600 gallons in a 56TC? That's a BIG ferry tank!!

The 56TC was only made for a few years in the late 60's / early 70's... I think 90-something were built IIRC. Are parts an issue, or do they share parts with the rest of the Baron series?

All the seats were sent over UPS except for the pilots seat. A plywood frame an bottom were made to hold a total of 3 fuel bladders manifolded together and plumbed in to the fuel system and vented through a plug panel in the vent window, and a nose locker tank. Trickiest part was fuel management. I'd pull from forward tanks until the trim wheel got to a certain point then I'd have to pull from the back bladder till I had to trim up to a certain point, then back. After a few hours I started to see if I could keep the plane in flying trim stricktly with fuel. You can do longitudinal pretty well, especially if you have a tank with a nice long aft arm, but not roll. I tried to keep the CG as aft as possible for economy. Plane held a total of 720 gallons, and still climbed out at 1500 fpm. The 56 TC was only made 2 years IIRC, 67 & 68. Good years for hotrods of all types. The main thing is it was the test bed for the Duke Engines (TIO-541). They were probably the worst engines Lycoming made and were the reason why one of the nicest flying small cabin piston twins never made it. I'd really love to get into that Rocket Engineering PT-6 conversion. You can have a nice turbine 300 knot twin turbine with 2 NEW engines and a sweet panel for less than 1.3m. Rock on, that's a lotto buy.
 
dang henning, just when ive thought you've done it all, you start telling more stories.
 
bbchien said:
Have you seen Ibold's kids? Whole family is probably 700 pounds. Dog- eighty? 400 nm is only 480 pounds of fuel with a nice reserve....

Look fellas, the budget is $110K. Baron Ain't gonna happen.

There was a 1962 A55 posted for sale at OSH for only $72K. Of course both engines were past TBO and the radios were rather outdated. But it did have a new leather interior!
 
Henning said:
All the seats were sent over UPS except for the pilots seat. A plywood frame an bottom were made to hold a total of 3 fuel bladders manifolded together and plumbed in to the fuel system and vented through a plug panel in the vent window, and a nose locker tank. Trickiest part was fuel management. I'd pull from forward tanks until the trim wheel got to a certain point then I'd have to pull from the back bladder till I had to trim up to a certain point, then back. After a few hours I started to see if I could keep the plane in flying trim stricktly with fuel. You can do longitudinal pretty well, especially if you have a tank with a nice long aft arm, but not roll. I tried to keep the CG as aft as possible for economy. Plane held a total of 720 gallons, and still climbed out at 1500 fpm. The 56 TC was only made 2 years IIRC, 67 & 68. Good years for hotrods of all types. The main thing is it was the test bed for the Duke Engines (TIO-541). They were probably the worst engines Lycoming made and were the reason why one of the nicest flying small cabin piston twins never made it. I'd really love to get into that Rocket Engineering PT-6 conversion. You can have a nice turbine 300 knot twin turbine with 2 NEW engines and a sweet panel for less than 1.3m. Rock on, that's a lotto buy.

Actually, if the 56TC and the Duke had been equipped with speed brakes, i think the engines would have been ok, i had one, put 1460 hours on the engines, they were still running fine when i sold it. They need to be treated like fine china.
 
Budget, budget, budget. The point is to get Ken into a multi that will somewhat serve his needs, not bust the bank, and not cause Aviaiton Induced Divorce Syndrome (his other half is one high powered Legal Beagle).....Yeah, I'd like a Widgeon, an Albatross, BE-18, heck I'd take a DC3 but it would bankrupt me in no time flat.

Commanders are big, slow, suck fuel, and are "total hydraulic". It can break your nut just fixing the seals. Whadda skytruck, but I can't affored one of them REALLY.

Ain't happening.
 
BEECH TRAVELAIR-65 D-95A. 450 SMOH, 3400 TTAF, Garmin 430, fresh annual, $75,000. Possible trade for C172 or Warrior. NJ/(201) 446-1465. (201) 446-1465
1958 Beech Travel Air 3149 448 Janesville WI $58,900 Add to Favorites
Take Notes
1958 TRAVEL AIR, fresh annual, total 3149, eng. L&R 448, props L&R 207. Recent paint & interior, KX170B, 1&2, KN-64, Apollo 618, AT-50, KR-86, WX-10A, intercom, Cleveland brakes, single & double yoke. Always hangared. All logs. $58,900 or $73,900 with new props and spinners. WI/(608) 752-7533; 755-1941.

ed. note: the 58 probably has simmonds injection- if it does it's completely unsupportable.
 
Len Lanetti said:
Ken,

Did we knock Aztecs out of the running?

If not...here is one...a '69...4425TT one runout, one mid time, mechanical King Nav/Coms, radar, no boots, leather seats, "light hail damage"...from oblique picture angle it appears to have an AP, HSA & digital clock...asking $49,950.

http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/1969_piper_pa23250_aztec.htm

Len

P.S. This thread is danger.
 
bbchien said:
ed. note: the 58 probably has simmonds injection- if it does it's completely unsupportable.

Actually the '58 came with carburetors and if the engines were upgraded to FI, chances are they didn't use the Simmonds system. Also IIRC the 58's only had four seats from the factory so unless the cabin was modified, 5 plus dogs won't work at all in that model.

The D95 has Bendix injection and 5 or 6 seats.
 
Thanks for all the help, guys!

I have started working on the boss and the wife to see if I can rationalize this kind of purchase. For the time being, I'm going to be looking for a mid- to late-60s B55 Baron. I had been thinking either early Baron or Aztec, but I think I'll put a hold on Aztecs.
 
Ken

Let me know if I can assist in any way. Quite a few Baron guys out your way that would be happy to let you know what they think of things. You may want to make some posts on the Beechlist.

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Ken

Let me know if I can assist in any way. Quite a few Baron guys out your way that would be happy to let you know what they think of things. You may want to make some posts on the Beechlist.

Dave
Thanks, Dave. Where can I find the Beechlist?
 
Ken Ibold said:
Thanks for all the help, guys!

I have started working on the boss and the wife to see if I can rationalize this kind of purchase. For the time being, I'm going to be looking for a mid- to late-60s B55 Baron. I had been thinking either early Baron or Aztec, but I think I'll put a hold on Aztecs.

I suggest you buy or borrow a copy of Larry Ball's book "From Travel Air to Baron, How Beech Created a Classic". Or I can look up anything you'd like to know in mine. It lists all the factory specs on each year's model 95, 55, 56, and 58 along with all the incremental changes over the years. Also given is the number of units sold each year during the produciton run.
 
Len Lanetti said:
If not...here is one...a '69...4425TT one runout, one mid time, mechanical King Nav/Coms, radar, no boots, leather seats, "light hail damage"...from oblique picture angle it appears to have an AP, HSA & digital clock...asking $49,950.

http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/1969_piper_pa23250_aztec.htm

Len

P.S. This thread is danger.

Looks like turbo engines. TIO 540 SER What kind of problems are associated with these types of engines?
 
Ken:

The Beechlist is a broadcast e-mail list of many Beech owners. The norm is over 100 e-mails a day. I have outlook put them in a designated folder. Sometimes read them all, sometimes just delete them. If you ask folks the pros and cons of certain model years, there is a real helpful knowledge base on there.

As has been said, join as above or send an e-mail here and ask Howard how to sign you up beech-owners@beechcraft.org

Look forward to seeing you on there.

Aloha,

Dave
 
Go way cool. Beech 18/Lockheed 12. Room to spare!
 
W.O'Boogie said:
Go way cool. Beech 18/Lockheed 12. Room to spare!

Yeah! And the one that dropped in when we were at Gaston's this summer was for sale.
 
lancefisher said:
Yeah! And the one that dropped in when we were at Gaston's this summer was for sale.

I forget what he told me his fuel burn was, but it was scary :hairraise:
 
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