What to Tell Tower?

[denverpilot]

What if you don't need to do a run up at APA (or as I read further CGX ---oops, that's not Chicago Executive, PWK) ?

I just tell 'em I won't need a run-up on initial call-up. But the only way I can do that is if I do a rolling run-up and tear up brake pads.

 

[denverpilot]

I agree with this. It depends on the airport but especially at airports with a lot of GA traffic or traffic which is feeding the runway from both sides it pays to call when ready, not just when #1. I'll say in "in sequence" and I'm not sure why that bothers people but I'm also not sure why "with you", which I don't say but others in the same airplane will say, bothers people.

"With you" is just superfluous. If you were "with someone else" you wouldn't be on this frequency.

I hear this a lot...

"Denver Center, Cessna 12345 with you, One Zero Thousand Five Hundred."

The pilot left out critical information which can take the place of "with you"...

"Denver Center, Cessna 12345 LEVEL, One Zero Thousdand Five Hundred."

The whole "with you" is an easy habit to break, since "climbing", "decending", and "level" can usually replace it in the same location in the sentence where it usually gets put in the string of words, and conveys more information in the same amount of key-up time.

And... those three words actually match the AIM's recommendation for call-ups! Bonus!

 

[markb5900]

As others have said. Listen to the ATIS to see if there are some "local" procedures they want.

I learned at a towered field.
Initial call up to ground went something like this
" Cessna xxxx at the ramp, ready to taxi with the numbers, VFR to xxxxx"

Response would be: "Cessna xxx taxi to runway 12 via xx, xx"

After my run up and taxi to the hold short line, switch to tower:
"cessna xxx ready at 12, vfr, east departure please".
If more than one plane in front of me I add "in sequence"

After that, the normal cleared for take etc..

Hope that helps you some.

 

[Everskyward]

"With you" is just superfluous. If you were "with someone else" you wouldn't be on this frequency.

Are we counting syllables again? I know what the normal reasons stated are but I don't see why people get so wound up about it.

The whole "with you" is an easy habit to break, since "climbing", "decending", and "level" can usually replace it in the same location in the sentence where it usually gets put in the string of words, and conveys more information in the same amount of key-up time.

I'll introduce you to my flying buddy and you can tell him that.

 

[ajstoner21]

I thought you stayed at the "hold short" line (???)

Jaybird, check out "Runway Safety" http://flash.aopa.org/asf/runwaySafety/

Its another free AOPA interactive course. It should discuss the "line up and wait". "Line up and Wait" is what replaced the "Position and Hold".

 

[Fearless Tower]

Are we counting syllables again? I know what the normal reasons stated are but I don't see why people get so wound up about it.

'cuz pilots and their egos got to get wrapped 'bout something.

I prefer to get worked up over more important nuisances like airline pilots who keep pulling the stick back when the jet is stallin'

 

[John Baker]

It's me, I'm ready to go now, n don't be keeping me waiting, fuel ain't free ya know.

John

 

[denverpilot]

Are we counting syllables again? I know what the normal reasons stated are but I don't see why people get so wound up about it.

I take my cues from Don Brown's articles since he was on the other side of the scope and a Safety Rep.

I also have spent a lifetime doing Emergency Services radio stuff (non-aviation) and when a frequency is busy, syllables and the information they convey really do count, if everyone's on their game.

Since the "with you" is always right after a hand-off and the maximum I've ever seen any pilot WAIT and LISTEN before transmitting is 60 seconds, I contend that the check-in should be as short as possible, but no shorter, since one has no idea if the next controller is working one aircraft or thirty, these days. Or if they've just answered a Mayday, they're on the land-line, etc.

The days of there being two controllers at every scope, one to watch the screen, the other to set up the "data" ("D-Side") are long gone. They're suffering the same cut-backs everyone else is.

If I can make their lives a little easier using proper phraseology, why not? It's not like it's a smart thing to do to argue the use of bad radio technique.

Will I always get it right? Nah. Will I always get every landing right? Nope. But if I'm always striving for that "perfect" landing, why not demand high standards of my radio work, too? It's a practicable skill, just like landings.

Just my opinion. Some people don't want to work at it, and that's more their personal loss than a huge glaring safety or other issue that I can point at.

On the flip side, you'll never hear me say "Tree" or "Fife" for "Three" and "Five", even though their the ICAO pronunciation, unless I ever run into a controller who can't figure out what they are. But "Niner", yes.

My personal standards are confused.

 

[denverpilot]

... even though their ...

Damn you auto-correct! "They're!!!!!"

Grrrr.

 

[Everskyward]

If I can make their lives a little easier using proper phraseology, why not? It's not like it's a smart thing to do to argue the use of bad radio technique.

I can give many examples of controllers saying unnecessary things like "good day" as well as, "do not cross the hold short line" (KADS). That's many unnecessary syllables.

I'm not advocating using bad radio technique, I'm just saying that a fair number of people get all wound up about the smallest details, of everything. How do you think that looks to new or prospective pilots who read this stuff? If I thought I was getting involved in a hobby where my hand was going to be slapped at the smallest infraction I would run the other way. Just sayin'...

 

[denverpilot]

I can give many examples of controllers saying unnecessary things like "good day" as well as, "do not cross the hold short line" (KADS). That's many unnecessary syllables.

In radio parlance, they're the "Net Control", everybody's talkin' to them. They get to say what they want.

They answer to some higher authority, but on their frequency, they're "God". I answer to them. My only trump card, built into the system is either "stand-by" or the mega-Trump-card, "Unable". Beyond that it's "Pan Pan Pan", or "Mayday".

These are very old two-way radio rules developed long before pilots had radios. There is a system to it underneath all the chaos.

You best hear it come out of everyone when another pilot on-frequency uses that last one... Mayday.

Ever notice how everything is dead-nuts-on proper phraseology from everyone when there's an emergency on the frequency?

Answers become shortened to the minumum time needed to convey information and things like requests for "ride reports" completely disappear. (They either suffer the bumpy ride or use radio #2 to go ask FlightWatch which has always been more appropriate.)

I'm not advocating using bad radio technique, I'm just saying that a fair number of people get all wound up about the smallest details, of everything. How do you think that looks to new or prospective pilots who read this stuff? If I thought I was getting involved in a hobby where my hand was going to be slapped at the smallest infraction I would run the other way. Just sayin'...

Ha. If people read on the Internet how to Scuba dive and all the possible methods of death they'd never do it.

Heck, people spending an hour on WebMD will decide that they have nose-cancer when their nose starts running.

There's no good replacement (including reading the Net) for just going out and doing it and learning the cultural "norms" that lie over the top of "the system".

Sure, if a controller is jovial and sounds very low-stress that day and is joking around, people usually follow suit. That's just something you learn from the experience of doing it.

You start by learning the textbook way, and expand from there.

Any pilot can get by -- on any ATC call-up except for reading back an IFR clearance -- with the "Four W's".

Who you're calling.
Who you are.
Where you are.
What you want.

Let's say you're new and forgot the ATIS entirely at KAPA, one of the known "odd-ball airports" of normal radio procedure.

"Centennial Ground"
"Skylane One Two Seven Niner Mike"
"Area Hotel"
"Taxi for takeoff"

The reply would be, "Cessna One Two Seven Niner Mike, confirm you have ATIS Yankee, and say Direction of Flight."

The controllers will prompt you for anything else they need by regulation.

So the ATC Comm world is pretty easy for a new pilot.

The discussion here was (from me anyway) how to make that all go smoothly in a single call-up, *if* you're paying attention and on your game.

I haven't heard KAPA ask anyone to call the Tower on the phone or seen any indication that anyone's license has been yanked for the above, hear it all the time, actually.

So no one has anything to worry too much about if they're new to this radio stuff and just learning. (There, it's in the thread for future newbies! )

One thing I *have* heard is the controllers giving preferential treatment to those who do radio work well.

The number one thing any radio communicator runs out of first is time. I see this over and over training new radio operators in ES work.

If you've already proven you're not wasting the controller's time, you have a leg up when you squeeze that switch and make a special request.

I've had people question me about "How did you get the Tower to let you depart Runway 28 at KAPA?!" as if they didn't believe me.

Situational awareness and crisp radio calls convey something to the person at the other end that's not inherently obvious to someone who's never done it... They get a professional "vibe" off of you, and they know when you say you can make an immediate right turn-out to avoid the two aircraft doing laps on 35L that you really will do it, and that you've been LISTENING.

Most importantly they feel they're not setting themselves up for a "deal" (loss of separation) that can end their career in the next three minutes.

Call up and ramble on about stuff, stay keyed down for twice as long as necessary, etc... You'll get their trump card, "Unable, taxi to Runway Three Five Right Alpha 18 Run-Up Area."

So yeah, I'm picky. Mostly on myself. Everyone else can do/say what they want to! Any pressure they put on themselves isn't coming from me.

I'm not the FAA, their DE, or their CFI!

 

[Everskyward]

In radio parlance, they're the "Net Control", everybody's talkin' to them. They get to say what they want.

They answer to some higher authority, but on their frequency, they're "God". I answer to them. My only trump card, built into the system is either "stand-by" or the mega-Trump-card, "Unable". Beyond that it's "Pan Pan Pan", or "Mayday".

I guess I have a very different view of controllers than you do. I don't think they are "god", on the frequency or anywhere else. They are people doing a job, just like pilots. I think I learned this during the mapping days when negotiation with ATC was a big part of my job. I think it was also where I learned that you catch more flies with honey, something my boss never learned. That's why he sent me to do all the Class B jobs, because they would let me in. I don't think it had anything to do with my radio technique vs. his.

I haven't heard KAPA ask anyone to call the Tower on the phone or seen any indication that anyone's license has been yanked for the above, hear it all the time, actually.

So no one has anything to worry too much about if they're new to this radio stuff and just learning. (There, it's in the thread for future newbies! )

I wasn't really talking about getting your hand slapped by ATC. I was referring more to getting it slapped by your fellow pilots which seems like it happens a lot.

So yeah, I'm picky. Mostly on myself. Everyone else can do/say what they want to! Any pressure they put on themselves isn't coming from me.

I'm not the FAA, their DE, or their CFI!

Nothing wrong with that. I think you should try to be the best that you can be too, but I think we often cross the line from giving good advice to nitpicking. I mean the collective "we", not you in particular.

 

[jason]

There are 200 other "with you" threads. Perhaps this conversation would be better off in one of those.

 

[denverpilot]

I guess I have a very different view of controllers than you do. I don't think they are "god", on the frequency or anywhere else. They are people doing a job, just like pilots. I think I learned this during the mapping days when negotiation with ATC was a big part of my job.

Understand, I only mean in the traditional radio sense of the "god" thing... not that they aren't human and don't make mistakes. They just get air time when I don't... because they're "running the Net". I don't get to read Shakespere on the frequency, but if they want to, they can. Nothing I can really do about it. (That would be cool, by the way... a controller who uses "Foresooth" and other funny Olde English.)

I think it was also where I learned that you catch more flies with honey, something my boss never learned. That's why he sent me to do all the Class B jobs, because they would let me in. I don't think it had anything to do with my radio technique vs. his.

Personality does come across radios...

I wasn't really talking about getting your hand slapped by ATC. I was referring more to getting it slapped by your fellow pilots which seems like it happens a lot.

Here in the fake Internet message board world, or in person? I can't imagine walking up to someone in person and telling them their radio technique sucked, unless I knew them AWFULLY well, and their technique was AWFULLY bad.

Anyone looking for "advice" on the Internet is surely going to get it.

Better advice comes from coaches like their CFI, other pilots they know after they've solicited their opinion in person, etc.

Nothing wrong with that. I think you should try to be the best that you can be too, but I think we often cross the line from giving good advice to nitpicking. I mean the collective "we", not you in particular.

Probably true. I try to temper my "radio phraseology rants" with the background knowledge that anyone who feels like it, can hear me screw it up and even download recordings of me screwing it up forever, from LiveATC... The recording might even have come from the radio feeding the "KAPA Tower" feed, from my own house!

Trying to get back to the original poster here a bit... LiveATC.net listening is a GREAT way to figure out how it all works at different places... what a great resource that didn't exist back when I started! We would have had to have bought a receiver and been close enough to the airport to hear both sides of the conversation back then. (Which I did...)

It's also cool to learn how ATC works in other countries. I have fallen asleep to the sing-song voices of the Japanese controllers late at night here in the U.S. when it's busy over there. The "magic" of radio, transported to my ears via the Net.

Hearing "Flight Level 05" on LiveATC for "Five-Thousand" from the European controllers is a reminder that just 'cause I have the U.S. system "figured out"... the rest of the world doesn't do it exactly the same way, too.

Listening to the HF traffic with the noise and SELCAL tones and such is a treat for this old "radio guy" too. But most folks are annoyed by the constant static on those. Old-school lat/long checkin's over a vast ocean by an airliner or cargo plane can take your mind's eye back to the early days of aircraft ocean crossings by commercial crews with a sextant and a chart... with just a touch of imagination, since HF radio hasn't changed much since then... even if you know they're reading their lat/long off of the FMS screen today. SELCAL tones kinda ruin that fanciful minds-eye picture, but it's close!

It won't be the same when they finally replace the HF with satellite comms.

 

[Fearless Tower]

There are 200 other "with you" threads. Perhaps this conversation would be better off in one of those.

I am most definitely 'with you'!

 

[Everskyward]

Here in the fake Internet message board world, or in person? I can't imagine walking up to someone in person and telling them their radio technique sucked, unless I knew them AWFULLY well, and their technique was AWFULLY bad.

Anyone looking for "advice" on the Internet is surely going to get it.

Better advice comes from coaches like their CFI, other pilots they know after they've solicited their opinion in person, etc.

I definitely meant in the fake internet message board world. However, due to the fact that I've been lucky enough to meet many people here it doesn't seem very different than the real world to me.

It's also cool to learn how ATC works in other countries. I have fallen asleep to the sing-song voices of the Japanese controllers late at night here in the U.S. when it's busy over there. The "magic" of radio, transported to my ears via the Net.

Hearing "Flight Level 05" on LiveATC for "Five-Thousand" from the European controllers is a reminder that just 'cause I have the U.S. system "figured out"... the rest of the world doesn't do it exactly the same way, too.

Listening to the HF traffic with the noise and SELCAL tones and such is a treat for this old "radio guy" too. But most folks are annoyed by the constant static on those. Old-school lat/long checkin's over a vast ocean by an airliner or cargo plane can take your mind's eye back to the early days of aircraft ocean crossings by commercial crews with a sextant and a chart... with just a touch of imagination, since HF radio hasn't changed much since then... even if you know they're reading their lat/long off of the FMS screen today. SELCAL tones kinda ruin that fanciful minds-eye picture, but it's close!

I've had just one overseas experience and it was definitely different, HF, SELCAL, Japanese controllers... I had to write down the phraseology for the position report because I didn't want to screw it up. After all the first one was to Petro Control in Russia.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oh good grief!

The only thing I can think of that's more useless than the phrase "with you" is a discussion about the phrase "with you." Especially in a thread about a different topic.

Yes, it's useless. Yes, it's meaningless. Yes, it's the pilot equivalent of "uhhhh." And yes, I try to keep my own students from picking it up. But it's harmless and if someone doesn't want to get rid of it from their own vocabulary, I really don't care.

 

[gismo]

They want "taxi to 35 via kilo alpha for Cessna eight two uniform". If you don't give them the destination, route, and tail number, they'll bark at you about it and won't let you go until you say all of those elements together. I believe the ATIS states the requirement but I can't remember exactly. I'm just used to it.

They don't seem to care about you saying "hold short of 35".

That's almost exactly opposite of what's expected at FCM. They require readback of "all hold short instructions" as well as the runway you're being directed to but they don't require parroting the route. And the routes are rarely complex because of the rules about crossing more than one runway on the same "clearance".

 

[slacktide]

Most airports are like that there are some that are different. Chicago Executive is one that is different. For pistons they expect you to taxi to the run up area, do your runup and stay in the box. Then you call tower telling them you are ready for take off and in the run up area. Tower will tell you if they want you to proceed to the hold short line or not. That is the only airport I know around here that is that way. Most are like what you described.

I am curious. Say you have just arrived at PWK from Outer Space. As a transient alien pilot, how are you to know that PWK tower does not want your flying saucer to leave the runup area until they say so? There is nothing regarding this procedure in the A/FD. There are no NOTAMS on DUATs. Nothing on the airpots web page under "pilot information" I just called the ATIS at 847-465-0291. Unfortunately my home planet is in a different time zone, so even though it is sunny here the ATIS information provided pertains to operations when the tower is closed. Maybe this local procedure is described there during daylight hours. Either way, I would hope that this information is somehow communicated to the non-local 3-eyed green monster pilot population.

 

[Doggtyred]

I am curious. Say you have just arrived at PWK from Outer Space. As a transient alien pilot, how are you to know that PWK tower does not want your flying saucer to leave the runup area until they say so? There is nothing regarding this procedure in the A/FD. There are no NOTAMS on DUATs. Nothing on the airpots web page under "pilot information" I just called the ATIS at 847-465-0291. Unfortunately my home planet is in a different time zone, so even though it is sunny here the ATIS information provided pertains to operations when the tower is closed. Maybe this local procedure is described there during daylight hours. Either way, I would hope that this information is somehow communicated to the non-local 3-eyed green monster pilot population.

Call the ATIS during the proper hour.

Or just wing it. Listen to ATIS just prior to departure and follow instructions.

If it doesn't specify who to call and when, use your best critical thinking skills and choose between calling on ground, tower or clearance delivery.

If they don't issue preemptive instructions they very well can't rightfully bark at you about it, can they??

 

[ScottM]

I am curious. Say you have just arrived at PWK from Outer Space. As a transient alien pilot, how are you to know that PWK tower does not want your flying saucer to leave the runup area until they say so? There is nothing regarding this procedure in the A/FD. There are no NOTAMS on DUATs. Nothing on the airpots web page under "pilot information" I just called the ATIS at 847-465-0291. Unfortunately my home planet is in a different time zone, so even though it is sunny here the ATIS information provided pertains to operations when the tower is closed. Maybe this local procedure is described there during daylight hours. Either way, I would hope that this information is somehow communicated to the non-local 3-eyed green monster pilot population.

If you try to move out of the runup area without your take off clearance AND there are other planes awaiting take off, you will be asked to stop your movement and remain in the runup area by ground. I have not heard ATC ever bark at anyone. I have heard them ask a guy who was at the runup to taxi down the runway and return to the runup area when they wanted to get some VFR traffic out and he was awaiting IFR clearance.

 

[Everskyward]

If they don't issue preemptive instructions they very well can't rightfully bark at you about it, can they??

And even if they do, oh well. If you do your best to discern the proper procedure and it's still not right just accept the correction. You're never going to be able to do exactly what ATC wants every time since procedures are not all that consistent between locations.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You're never going to be able to do exactly what ATC wants every time since procedures are not all that consistent between locations.

That's kind of a bottom line. There are variations in procedure, sometimes stated, sometimes not.

Take Class C. There are Class C's where you call CD for departure instructions before calling ground for taxi, Class Cs where you go right to Ground without calling CD, and Class C's where you call CD but don't talk to Ground.

Best you can do is listen to the ATIS for the unusual, check the AFD or some other airport guide, and do your best.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am curious. Say you have just arrived at PWK from Outer Space. As a transient alien pilot, how are you to know that PWK tower does not want your flying saucer to leave the runup area until they say so? There is nothing regarding this procedure in the A/FD. There are no NOTAMS on DUATs. Nothing on the airpots web page under "pilot information" I just called the ATIS at 847-465-0291. Unfortunately my home planet is in a different time zone, so even though it is sunny here the ATIS information provided pertains to operations when the tower is closed. Maybe this local procedure is described there during daylight hours. Either way, I would hope that this information is somehow communicated to the non-local 3-eyed green monster pilot population.

If it's like the number at my home airport, what you get is not the actual ATIS but the AWOS recording and the tower's recorded addendum from the night before. You've gotta be on the radio to get the actual ATIS.

I would hope that they would have such a thing in the ATIS. Due to the confusion that can result from differing procedures at various airports, our tower now specifically instructs in the ATIS what to do for both VFR and IFR departures. (I like our controllers. )

 

[skidoo]

That's kind of a bottom line. There are variations in procedure, sometimes stated, sometimes not.

Take Class C. There are Class C's where you call CD for departure instructions before calling ground for taxi, Class Cs where you go right to Ground without calling CD, and Class C's where you call CD but don't talk to Ground.

Best you can do is listen to the ATIS for the unusual, check the AFD or some other airport guide, and do your best.

My class C has Ground and CD on the same frequency. I went there last weekend. I called Ground, taxied to the run-up area. When I was ready to leave the run-up, I called Ground again, he then replied as tower (on Ground freq) and cleared me for take-off.

 

[Be2atc]

Lol. Man, there's some random procedures out there. Just know where ur at and what they r. I work at DTO so here's some thoughts for ya.

It is different w every airport. Given taxi instructions gets u to the runway. If u need the run-up area use it. If not, let ur ground control know enroute. They can coordinate w tower and you'll prob be told to continue and monitor tower frequency. Once u complete ur runup switch to tower and procede to hold line or get sequence. We don't want to know if ur number 5 for departure. Number 1 or 2 is enough. The only thing I can suggest is before leaving the runup, monitor twr freq 5-10 secs before keying up and if there's a jet or larger twin heading to the hold line, let them pass and follow. 90% of the time they r IFR and we've already coordinated a release from approach and they'll need to dep w min delay.

 

[EdFred]

If it's like the number at my home airport, what you get is not the actual ATIS but the AWOS recording and the tower's recorded addendum from the night before. You've gotta be on the radio to get the actual ATIS.

I would hope that they would have such a thing in the ATIS. Due to the confusion that can result from differing procedures at various airports, our tower now specifically instructs in the ATIS what to do for both VFR and IFR departures. (I like our controllers. )

GRR has the actual ATIS on the phone.

 

[onwards]

Then you need to review what "line up and wait" and it's predecessor, "taxi into position and hold" mean.

Yeah. I received that one for the first time in my life during my friggin' checkride. Had no idea what it meant, but it sure sounded like go to the hold short line (in my towered airport, you are supposed to go to runup, finish your preflight checks and then contact ground before going to the hold short line or taking off).

So that's what I did. I got yelled at for the next minute or so by my DPE, became rattled, distracted, almost ran off the runway on the other side as a result, came back (I essentially tried lining up with the runway far side not center), and finally took off... with a book-perfect soft field take off.

I did pass my checkride, but at the end he made sure to spend another 2 minutes telling me that I should get more training about being distracted.

 

[onwards]

So the ATC Comm world is pretty easy for a new pilot.

Coming from a new pilot.. yes, it is in practice, but it's terrifying to start with. I am dealing with a perceived authority level that makes my brain freeze. The stress is significant - did I miss something? what if I don't understand, and delay something, and cause a crash? or even worse do the wrong thing? dear me, how I feared the radio.

Of course, now I don't because I've done it enough to feel comfortable. But it's probably the biggest psychological holdup towards becoming a pilot, in my experience (and therefore opinion).

I haven't heard KAPA ask anyone to call the Tower on the phone or seen any indication that anyone's license has been yanked for the above, hear it all the time, actually.

Or anything else, really... shoot, I've heard some weird radio calls by now, and I am still in the killzone! if someone forgets something, they ask for it, and asking for clarification always works. Shoot, there is another trump card that I used heavily at certain points in my training - it's the magic "student pilot" combination. That one bit helped me get over my fear of radio more than any other.

One thing I *have* heard is the controllers giving preferential treatment to those who do radio work well.

Yes yes! This finally happened to me the first time ever a week ago - I took a little practice flight locally (just to keep on top of things) from a Delta to a Charlie and back, and the lady at Charlie had to deal with quite a bit of folks running all over, and I was the only one being both on point and also taking care to answer ALL her requests (everyone else did what they were asked, but forgot to acknowledge at least one thing), so on my second touch-n-go, she slotted me in ahead of another guy. She didn't need to, I didn't ask for it, but it was obvious (and basically saved me an extended downwind).