What to do with #2?

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TomRV4

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Tom
Those of you with two GNS 430's in your panel...how do you like to set up the two units?

(by the way, I checked the archives and couldn't find where this had been discussed before...hope I'm not beating that poor dead horse all over again! If I am, please direct me to the proper thread...)

I have just started my instrument training in a Cirrus SR22 with dual 430W's, along with the Avidyne PFD and MFD displays.

I have had several lessons now, and my instructor likes to use the automatic crossfill function between the two 430 units. He prefers the moving map display on the top 430, and the flight plan page displayed on the bottom unit.

Makes sense to me on one level, but with the moving map flight plan already displayed on the Avidyne MFD (except for graphical depictions of the teardrop/parallel holding pattern entries), it seems that the number two 430 could be set up to monitor secondary items that might be beneficial, like maybe direct to info on the final destination, or something else!? (obviously I don't know what the hell I'm talking about)

Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated!

Oops...just remembered one more related question... How do you like to set up the radio frequencies for the two units? My instructor likes approach and tower frequencies on radio #1; with ATIS and ground on #2 radio...

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Tom
 
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When I saw the title of this thread, my advice was going to be' "flush it down." Now my advice is to just do what your instructor suggests. When your out on your own, experiment with the different screens. Eventually you'll find a combination that works for you.

Also, don't spend $50 on a book that will tell you that.
 
I think first I'd turn green with envy after spending a week flying approaches in my /A airplane, and Location Services disabled on my iPad, and about to go do more, just for add-on torture. :)
 
TomRV4 said:
Those of you with two GNS 430's in your panel...how do you like to set up the two units?
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I don't have that in my plane, but I've done a bit of training with folks who do. What seems to work best normally is the same as your instructor likes -- map on #1, FPL on #2, and selecting other functions as required.

I have just started my instrument training in a Cirrus SR22 with dual 430W's, along with the Avidyne PFD and MFD displays.
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Having the MFD changes things some. I'd be less likely to put the map there if it's up on the MFD in ten times the size. I'm not sure exactly how I'd do it, but I'd probably fly some just selecting what I need at the time and seeing what usually gets selected.
Oops...just remembered one more related question... How do you like to set up the radio frequencies for the two units? My instructor likes approach and tower frequencies on radio #1; with ATIS and ground on #2 radio...
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That's pretty much my practice -- ATC/CTAF/Flight Watch on #1, with #2 for ground, clearance, and ATIS/AWOS when needed, and 121.5 the rest of the time.
 
Do whatever makes you comfortable.

We usually used the "top" one for moving map picture. Used the bottom for everything else.
 
I just look to see if the needles are centered in the CDI......:rolleyes:

I know...no help here....sorry:no:
 
TomRV4 said:
Oops...just remembered one more related question... How do you like to set up the radio frequencies for the two units? My instructor likes approach and tower frequencies on radio #1; with ATIS and ground on #2 radio...
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That's also how I set up the radios. When I fly the Phenom our SOPs are to only use COM2 for ATIS and for standby frequencies, all communication with ATC is done on COM1. There are various reasons for that but when I'm flying something else I do it in the way outlined above.
 
I fly the same configuration...sr22 , dual 430's , avidyne.

I do coms as your instructor does, then with the 430's...I have CDI on #1, and traffic on #2 zoomed to 2/6 NM rings. Even though the traffic shows up on the MFD, it's hard to know how far it is etc. but the garmin "radar" type display with that range makes it easy.

I keep the CDI up there for situational awareness if I was ever to lose my pfd.
 
TomRV4 said:
Oops...just remembered one more related question... How do you like to set up the radio frequencies for the two units? My instructor likes approach and tower frequencies on radio #1; with ATIS and ground on #2 radio...

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Tom
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We put tower and approach in #1 and ATIS and ground in #2. Basically, the rule is, if it relates to the air, it goes in #1 and if it relates to the ground, it goes in #2.
 
For a plastic airplane it doesn't matter which radio is used for what and using the top radio for air and the bottom radio for ground is a good scheme. For an aluminum airplane, it may depend on where the antennas are located. For example, if the #1 is on the cabin roof and the #2 is on the belly, you will often have blind spots on the ground where the #2 may not give good results, however, when in the air, it is located for optimum range and performance.

Another consideration is the database subscription. Many I know only maintain a current database for the #1 and can't cross fill. For those that don't have a MFD, they tend to use the #2 for traffic if it is available on the aircraft.
 
I like to have the map on one and the nav 1 page showing the "numbers" - primarily course, track, and XTE, on the other. With an MFD as well, I'd probably have the map on the MFD, the "numbers" on 430 #1, and the flight plan on 430 #2 if they were crossfeeding automatically. Depending on the flight, I may not see the value in managing two GPS' if they weren't automatically syncing. The last time I flew that way, I think I put the full flight plan in #1 and used it for navigation, and put departure and destination in #2 and ignored it except for Comm/Nav functions.

I use one radio for ATC (clearance/ground/tower/etc) and the other for stuff like ATIS, or flight watch. Unless one radio performs better in certain situations, I'm not particular about which one I use for ATC, as long as it's used for ATC and the other is used for everything else.
 
I usually set #1 up in map mode and #2 in FPL to I can see segments of the flight plan list or approach segments (with CUM ETE/Dist/Heading) for awareness and verification.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I normally put one on nav page 1 (which displays the digital CDI) and the other on nav page 2 (map).
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+1
With a large screen MFD putting the map on one of two 430Ws will either make that unit a distraction or something never looked at, without the MFD the CFII's recommendation makes sense though. The nav page provides useful information in a nice compact presentation and can be used to steer the plane in a pinch if the PFD fails. Another option would be to use one of the 430s to look up and display information about enroute or destination waypoints, frequencies, etc.

As to the comm usage, a lot depends on where the antennas are located. I've found that in many airplanes with one comm attached to a belly antenna, that radio doesn't transmit as clearly on the ground so I'd use it for airborne stuff and save the one connected to a top antenna for ground stuff. If both antennas are on top then I'd stick with the CFI's method for this as long as the radios have flip-flop comm frequency selection (like your 430s). But if you're flying something with ancient comms that have only one frequency dialed in at a time, I'd alternate between upper and lower for every frequency change.
 
John Collins said:
For a plastic airplane it doesn't matter which radio is used for what and using the top radio for air and the bottom radio for ground is a good scheme. For an aluminum airplane, it may depend on where the antennas are located. For example, if the #1 is on the cabin roof and the #2 is on the belly, you will often have blind spots on the ground where the #2 may not give good results, however, when in the air, it is located for optimum range and performance.

Another consideration is the database subscription. Many I know only maintain a current database for the #1 and can't cross fill. For those that don't have a MFD, they tend to use the #2 for traffic if it is available on the aircraft.
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At first I thought you were Cirrus bashing...
...then I realized that you did have a point.
 
I'll add a strong vote for the Nav 1 screen on GPS1. In my training I was taught to use it as my primary reference and I am a Believer. When TRK=DTK=BRG I am a happy guy. Plus, when hand flying an ILS I center the needle then adjust the heading bug (and fly it) so that TRK matches the number on the plate. A bad TRK is a leading indicator and will alert you to trouble before the needle moves.

I use the map primarily for entertainment ("What's the name of that town over there?") and for checking my proximity to controlled or restricted airspace. It's not uncommon for me to make an entire flight without looking at the map. IMHO "flying the magenta line" is poor airmanship.

Re radios, my habit is to talk on COM1 and listen on COM2. That minimizes the times when I screw up and have the mic switched to the wrong radio. When I have three frequencies (typically Ground, Tower, and Approach when departing) I put Approach in COM2 but when I am done with Ground, I switch COM1 to Tower (active) and Approach (standby). Having Approach in COM2 is just a CYA in case I forget to switch COM1. YMMV, however. I have flown with lots of guys and most seem to have a consistent system. As long as you're consistent I don't think the system itself is too important.
 
airdale said:
I'll add a strong vote for the Nav 1 screen on GPS1. In my training I was taught to use it as my primary reference and I am a Believer. When TRK=DTK=BRG I am a happy guy. Plus, when hand flying an ILS I center the needle then adjust the heading bug (and fly it) so that TRK matches the number on the plate. A bad TRK is a leading indicator and will alert you to trouble before the needle moves.

I use the map primarily for entertainment ("What's the name of that town over there?") and for checking my proximity to controlled or restricted airspace. It's not uncommon for me to make an entire flight without looking at the map. IMHO "flying the magenta line" is poor airmanship.
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You can display all the Nav 1 screen info(DTK TRK BRG) on the moving map by going into menu and changing the display config.

Flying the magenta line is not really poor airmanship in fact its great airmanship and CRM due to the increased spacial awareness... not backing the magenta line up(when able) or not being able to perform /A is poor airmanship..but is is good to challenge yourself once in a while to keep your /A skills sharp
 
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CDI screen (NAV/2) on top unit, moving map (NAV/1) on bottom unit. You'll fly a lot more precisely using the CDI screen. I suggest using the moving map for overall positional awareness but not for navigating except in complicated airspaces.

www.GPDDirect.com
 
I tend to use one radio for all primary communication and the other for weather, guard monitoring, and talking to FSS/Flightwatch.

Call me crazy but the com radio on Garmin 430s drives me nuts. Silly little numbers in the upper corner of the screen with a slow refresh rate. I'll take a KX-155 for communicating any day of the week.

It's funny how the KX-155 is the stronger radio in every airplane I've flown that has it plus some garmin box.
 
You can display all the Nav 1 screen info(DTK TRK BRG) on the moving map
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You can't get all six Nav1 parameters and the CDI.

But, much more importantly IMHO, the OP is flying a shared airplane. Messing with the defaults on the displays has high potential for screwing up the next guy to fly it. The major shortcoming in Garmin software, again IMHO, is that there is no convenient way to reset all the screens to default settings. You either do a maintenance reset, which blows away all the GPS data, or you have to go screen by screen. The G1000 is worse than the smaller boxes -- many more settings by which you can mess up the next guy. Hectopascals, anyone?

Flying the magenta line is not really poor airmanship
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That debate is too far OT for this thread. Lets just leave it that we strongly disagree on the point.
 
airdale said:
You can't get all six Nav1 parameters and the CDI.

But, much more importantly IMHO, the OP is flying a shared airplane. Messing with the defaults on the displays has high potential for screwing up the next guy to fly it. The major shortcoming in Garmin software, again IMHO, is that there is no convenient way to reset all the screens to default settings. You either do a maintenance reset, which blows away all the GPS data, or you have to go screen by screen. The G1000 is worse than the smaller boxes -- many more settings by which you can mess up the next guy. Hectopascals, anyone?

That debate is too far OT for this thread. Lets just leave it that we strongly disagree on the point.
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On the G1000, some versions allow you to customize and store profiles, so that multiple pilots can have it "their way".
 
Thanks for all the good replies. I flew 4.1 hours yesterday and did 7 approaches. I'm getting comfortable with the setup I originally described, but still may change it slightly when I get more experience, and per a couple of the suggestions here...

Thanks again!
Tom
 
Changing, even something simple, can be difficult which is why I generally try to avoid changing something that is working. That said there are sometimes changes that end up being more efficient in the long run. A weekend pilot for 20 years, I'm still coming across them.
 
There's no chivalry with glass cockpits! :D Go round dials or go home! :wink2:
 
jesse said:
I tend to use one radio for all primary communication and the other for weather, guard monitoring, and talking to FSS/Flightwatch.

Call me crazy but the com radio on Garmin 430s drives me nuts. Silly little numbers in the upper corner of the screen with a slow refresh rate. I'll take a KX-155 for communicating any day of the week.

It's funny how the KX-155 is the stronger radio in every airplane I've flown that has it plus some garmin box.
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Thank you. You were the first one to mention guard monitoring. When the capability and opportunity exists (which it may not while in the instrument training environment outside of cross countries), one should be monitoring guard (121.5).
 
gprellwitz said:
Thank you. You were the first one to mention guard monitoring. When the capability and opportunity exists (which it may not while in the instrument training environment outside of cross countries), one should be monitoring guard (121.5).
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Change "should" to "must" -- if you are capable, it's required, and has been for about seven years.
FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE... NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM INTERCEPT PROCEDURES. AVIATORS SHALL REVIEW THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) FOR INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES, CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6, PARAGRAPH 5-6-2. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0. IF AN AIRCRAFT IS INTERCEPTED BY U.S. MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND FLARES ARE DISPENSED, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE TO BE FOLLOWED: FOLLOW THE INTERCEPT'S VISUAL SIGNALS, CONTACT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL IMMEDIATELY ON THE LOCAL FREQUENCY OR ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF GUARD 243.0, AND COMPLY WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY THE INTERCEPTING AIRCRAFT INCLUDING VISUAL SIGNALS IF UNABLE RADIO CONTACT. BE ADVISED THAT NONCOMPLIANCE MAY RESULT IN THE USE OF FORCE.
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Follow on question to my original post...

The times when I might be departing an airport with low ceilings (still in the SR22 with dual 430's and Avidyne PFD/MFD), would it be wise to set up the #2 430 with an arrival procedure back to the departure airport loaded and ready to use in case of a mechanical problem of some kind? (or if my wife or dog barfed all over the cockpit :) )

Just would have to be sure to change the primary PFD input to GPS2 in the event of a return to the airport. Any issues with doing it this way?

Thanks,
Tom
 
TomRV4 said:
Just would have to be sure to change the primary PFD input to GPS2 in the event of a return to the airport. Any issues with doing it this way?
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Are your 430's normally configured in auto crossfill? If so, GPS1 and GPS2 will provide the same course guidance so if you load an approach on one, it will be loaded on both.

I normally depart with the ILS or VOR freq in active or standby on NAV1 in case I have to return but do not load an approach for the departure airport.
 
Ron Levy said:
Change "should" to "must" -- if you are capable, it's required, and has been for about seven years.
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The operative word is "shall", not "must" as you are trying to assert.

FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE... NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM INTERCEPT PROCEDURES. AVIATORS SHALL REVIEW THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) FOR INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES, CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6, PARAGRAPH 5-6-2. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0.
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shall v. in some statutes, "shall" is a direction but does not mean mandatory, depending on the context.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The operative word is "shall", not "must" as you are trying to assert.

shall v. in some statutes, "shall" is a direction but does not mean mandatory, depending on the context.
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I would suggest you obtain definitions for terms used in the FAR's from the FAR's rather than some dictionary you happen to have lying around. From 14 CFR 1.3:
Sec. 1.3

Rules of construction.

(b) In Subchapters A through K of this chapter, the word:
(1) Shall is used in an imperative sense;
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And if you look in any dictionary, you'll find "imperative" defined with terms such as "absolutely necessary or required," "unavoidable," "absolutely directive," and "absolutely necessary." So, you must do anything the FAA says you shall do.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I would suggest you obtain definitions for terms used in the FAR's from the FAR's rather than some dictionary you happen to have lying around. From 14 CFR 1.3:
And if you look in any dictionary, you'll find "imperative" defined with terms such as "absolutely necessary or required," "unavoidable," "absolutely directive," and "absolutely necessary." So, you must do anything the FAA says you shall do.
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I'm using official guidance (that's where the definition was obtained) and I'll continue doing so.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I'm using official guidance (that's where the definition was obtained) and I'll continue doing so.
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Which "official guidance" from the FAA contains that definition? And even if there is such "official guidance," the Chief Counsel has more than once said that when there is a conflict between guidance and regulations, the regulations take precedence, and 14 CFR 1.3 says the definition you quoted is not accurate in the context of the FAR's.

Bottom line: The word "shall" when used in the FAR's and other regulatory contexts such as FDC NOTAM's really does mean you absolutlely must comply unless another regulation, exemption, waiver, or specific authorization gives specific relief under the specified circumstances (e.g., when it says "unless authorized by ATC" in Part 91 rules). Anyone who thinks otherwise can obtain clarification from their Regional Counsel or the Chief Counsel.

And finally, I'd be really interested to hear R&W's response when he writes up someone for an enforcement action involving a regulation with the word "shall" in it, and the accused party says, "Well, according to your post on PoA, 'shall' doesn't mean it's mandatory, so I figured I didn't really have to obey that regulation."
 
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My reading of that reg is that SHALL is a pretty strong word, but the "IF CAPABLE" language gives plenty of leeway.

If you need the second radio for other stuff, then you're not capable at that time. Whether it's talking to flight service, or just because you're busy instructing, you can turn 121.5 down/off.
 
You're on the ground involuntarily, leg is broken, no cell signal, and your ELT is transmitting on 121.5. (Even the 406mhz. ELTs do this.) It's cold and night is coming soon.

At that point are you wishing that someone flying nearby is monitoring Guard or are you buying into the definitional hairsplitting by which some pilots apparently wish to evade this responsibility?

I'm using official guidance ...
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... the "IF CAPABLE" language gives plenty of leeway.
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airdale said:
You're on the ground involuntarily, leg is broken, no cell signal, and your ELT is transmitting on 121.5. (Even the 406mhz. ELTs do this.) It's cold and night is coming soon.

At that point are you wishing that someone flying nearby is monitoring Guard or are you buying into the definitional hairsplitting by which some pilots apparently wish to evade this responsibility?
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When I'm able, I do it. When I'm not, I don't.

And the requirement to monitor guard wasn't put on us via NOTAM for SAR purposes. It was put on us for security reasons.

And my PLB has already spit out my lat/lon and rescue is on the way... neener neener.
 
Ron Levy said:
Which "official guidance" from the FAA contains that definition? And even if there is such "official guidance," the Chief Counsel has more than once said that when there is a conflict between guidance and regulations, the regulations take precedence, and 14 CFR 1.3 says the definition you quoted is not accurate in the context of the FAR's.

Bottom line: The word "shall" when used in the FAR's and other regulatory contexts such as FDC NOTAM's really does mean you absolutlely must comply unless another regulation, exemption, waiver, or specific authorization gives specific relief under the specified circumstances (e.g., when it says "unless authorized by ATC" in Part 91 rules). Anyone who thinks otherwise can obtain clarification from their Regional Counsel or the Chief Counsel.
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You're a sciolist Ron. You are an expert at Google/cut and paste, but your comprehension skills leave much to be desired. You'll twist anything to try to make your point. :nonod:


Ron Levy said:
And finally, I'd be really interested to hear R&W's response when he writes up someone for an enforcement action involving a regulation with the word "shall" in it, and the accused party says, "Well, according to your post on PoA, 'shall' doesn't mean it's mandatory, so I figured I didn't really have to obey that regulation."
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That has to be one of the most inane, if not downright idiotic post that you've come up with in a while. :rolleyes2:

If you actually knew what you were writing about you'd see just how ludicrous that is.
 
TMetzinger said:
My reading of that reg is that SHALL is a pretty strong word, but the "IF CAPABLE" language gives plenty of leeway.

If you need the second radio for other stuff, then you're not capable at that time. Whether it's talking to flight service, or just because you're busy instructing, you can turn 121.5 down/off.
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Thanks Tim, my point exactly. :thumbsup:

One has to read the whole statement and put it into proper context. :wink2:
 
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