What questions do I ask/watch out for at a flying club?

[Jeremy S]

I finished my PPL just over a month ago and am evaluating what I'm going to do going forward. I'm moving in a couple month's and am hoping to jump in to IR training afterwards. The town I'm moving too has limited options for flight schools or rentals, however there is a club with 2x 172s. I may have an opportunity to go check in out in a couple weeks while I'm in town.

What questions should I make sure I ask? Are there pitfalls I really need to watch out for when evaluating if I want to join the club?

 

[Flyingfanatic]

Congrats on getting your PPL. The instrument rating is a great add on and will make you a better pilot for sure.

I’ve been involved in 2 clubs, both of which were great experiences for me. Both were ownership clubs, one of which I created. I prefer it the equity set up, mainly for the ownership component which does bring some challenges.

Here’s a few questions to ask.

Is it an ownership (equity) club, or non-equity?

Ask for their operating rules and by-laws.

What are the scheduling rules and process? Is it online? Is there a restriction on how many flights you can schedule?

if it’s an equity club, how are they doing financially? Do they have enough in reserves for overhaul and upgrades?

How long have they been in existence?

AOPA is a great resource for this as well.

Good luck!

Jon

 

[woodchucker]

It’s a good idea to ask about insurance. I’m a member of an equity club and an insurance policy is provided for all members so there is no need to carry my own insurance policy. You might want to ask to see their flight scheduler to see how availability looks on the calendar. No matter what questions you ask, if you get the sense that there is anything less than 100% transparency I would walk away.

 

[RussR]

See this thread for some definite red flags, and advice on a club to NOT join:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ef-pilot-non-cfi-checkout-limitations.134465/

 

[kujo806]

What is the ratio of active members to planes? If there are 10 for 2 planes it's probably great availability. If it is 100 for 2 planes, it is probably awful. That was the biggest problem I had in my current one. My schedule is crazy so I can't schedule a plane two weeks in advance, but it didn't stop others from doing it and then maybe canceling the day of.

 

[Jeremy S]

Is it an ownership (equity) club, or non-equity?

Ask for their operating rules and by-laws.

What are the scheduling rules and process? Is it online? Is there a restriction on how many flights you can schedule?

if it’s an equity club, how are they doing financially? Do they have enough in reserves for overhaul and upgrades?

How long have they been in existence?

Jon

What is the ratio of active members to planes? If there are 10 for 2 planes it's probably great availability. If it is 100 for 2 planes, it is probably awful. That was the biggest problem I had in my current one. My schedule is crazy so I can't schedule a plane two weeks in advance, but it didn't stop others from doing it and then maybe canceling the day of.

It seems to be an equity club, as they advertise being a part owner, and that insurance covers the members. Their "About me" Section says they schedule online. The overhaul question is probably a good one. Their FAQ lists one aircraft at 2000 SMOH and the other at 1800. No Idea how long it's been since that was updated though. It also says they have ~35 members. I'll try to remember to talk to their scheduler to see about what their utilization rate is.

 

[GaryM]

Ask to see their scheduling website and look back over the past year to see how often the planes are actually flown. My club has a read-only guest account for our scheduling website that we give out to people who are interested in joining

Ask if they have ever levied special assessments against the members. If their engine/maintenance reserve is healthy, it will cover overhauls, annuals, planned upgrades and unexpected repairs. If it isn’t and they often hit up the members for more money, you want to know that in advance.

 

[Clip4]

Most flying clubs use an online schedule service. They can place you on it as a non scheduling member so you can evaluate availability.

The club should also have online their bylaws that will advise you their procedures.

I would want to know if they assess members if the financials are tight, do they have a minimum billable hours anytime during the year, what is the minimum daily charge if you want to do a vacation.

 

[bflynn]

Ask to have someone show you the next 3 weeks of availability during the time period you want to fly. If you can't easily get an airplane to fly, there's not much sense in joining.

The demand for flying has gone crazy since covid. Good, more pilots. Bad, more pilots.

 

[mo_mo]

Look up the planes flight history on FlightAware. Are they being flown for training constantly? Going 2-3 days between flights? Any long overnight cross countries?

Will give you an idea of availability and how the members fly them.

 

[Jeremy S]

Look up the planes flight history on FlightAware. Are they being flown for training constantly? Going 2-3 days between flights? Any long overnight cross countries?

Will give you an idea of availability and how the members fly them.

That was a great idea. Looks like one hasn't flown in about a month, which makes sense because it's the one that was listed as having 2k on the engine. Likely is in getting an OH. It appears that the other one is flying daily.

 

[AggieMike88]

Regarding scheduling, look at availability during holidays and big flying events such as AirVenture and Oshkosh. Ask about their policy regarding how scheduling for these happens. Can one person hog all the holidays by scheduling in advance? Or is there a fair is fair scheme?

35 over two aircraft is a lot. We have 16 over two aircraft in my club and it’s a lot. Find out how many of that 35 are super active, somewhat active, lightly active, and never fly.

With both of the aircraft engines at or near overhaul, definitely ask about the financials. A single engine is a huge money and time commitment. Two near back to back sounds like a big assessment about to happen.

Find out if there are training requirements to be cleared to use the aircraft. In my club, we do ask that you demonstrate proficiency in operating the airplane. Sometimes that’s just an hour or three with a CFI, or it could be 5-10. Also one of our aircraft has a very modern PFD few have seen or used. So some time with a CFI may be needed to learn that.

Knowing the training requirement helps you understand the entry requirement expected of you should you join.


Not mentioned yet is any debt the club is carrying. And what is the plan to not just service it, but eliminate it. Or does it get paid down significantly just to be tapped into again when a big expense happens?

Ask how maintenance happens. When you return from a flight and the airplane needs something, who do you talk to and how quickly is it addressed? If something happens while you are on a trip with the airplane, how is that handled?

Is there an overnight fee?

Are you allowed to use the airplane for acquiring future certificates and ratings?

What is the minimum level of pilot allowed to join? (Ours is private pilot, no students)

 

[NHWannabe]

It seems to be an equity club, as they advertise being a part owner, and that insurance covers the members. Their "About me" Section says they schedule online. The overhaul question is probably a good one. Their FAQ lists one aircraft at 2000 SMOH and the other at 1800. No Idea how long it's been since that was updated though. It also says they have ~35 members. I'll try to remember to talk to their scheduler to see about what their utilization rate is.

Ask to see the schedule and go back and check out availability.

 

[Albany Tom]

All the above advice is good, especially scheduling. Adding a couple of things:

If it's an equity club, and you have to "buy in" with a significant amount of money, sort out how you get that equity back if you want out. That sounds simple, but if the club has a fixed set of members, say 35, and they change that number in the future to 25, then if you quit you might not be able to get that equity share back for a long time. That goes along with the suggestion to read the bi-laws, but understand they can be changed. Really you're going to be a minority owner of a corporation, so anything you put into it could be lost.

As an add-on to the above, find out what happens if the club decides to shut down. In some clubs, non-aircraft, there are multiple classes of members, and the initial tier may have more rights to what happens with what's left. No idea if this is possible in an aircraft club.

Finally, before joining I'd check to make sure the club is currently registered as a corporation in your state, to limit your liability. Some clubs start out that way, but someone doesn't pay the state corporation fees for a couple of years, and the corporation is dissolved. In some states it's possible for that to happen without the members noticing. I'm not an attorney, and liability to general members may be nothing, just something I keep in the back of my head.

Go to a meeting or two and see what they are like. Most groups are normal, but some have a weird tilt on things...usually easy to spot. Be careful with volunteering, clubs of any sort can be an incredible time sink. I'm not saying that's bad at all, just to go in eyes open.

Most of my ramblings are based on being on the board of a couple of non-aviation clubs in the past, and having dealt with the fun that goes along with that. Some of it might not apply to aviation.

 

[JVerb]

Downside for the higher time engines in the club is cylinders are getting really hard to come by these days. Our club has had one down for a long time, waiting for cylinders. So in a club with only 2 planes, losing one for months could/will make scheduling pretty tough.

I'd check into if they allow weekend/week/extended trips, if there is a minimum hours for a longer reservations. That also reduces availability pretty badly when someone has a plane checked out for the week. on the flip side, if you can't check it out for a full week for a trip, then all you get is day-trip people, all competing to schedule on the same good days of the month!

Our club limits to 10 people per plane, and scheduling is mostly simple to do a week in advance. It's a little tougher for same day or 1 or 2 days out, since weather is much better known for the VFR pilots.

Personally, I wouldn't join a club that has higher than a 10:1 ratio. As a VFR only pilot myself, I think it'd be pretty tough to schedule when I want to fly that way.