What Plane Should I Get

Re: What Plance Should I Get

N801BH said:
For gosh sakes.... Can you correct the spelling in your topic... ;)
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It's bugging me too. I did go and fix it though. Go look at post #1. It's fixed there and nowhere else!

Great feature that is. I really need to start previewing my posts.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Henning said:
I think any of the above are fine primary trainers, none of them are quirky, 2 are even side by side. E-AB and even Pt 103 make excellent primary training.
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I have given a lot of primary training, some of it in Experimentals. Generally speaking, they are not good primary trainers. When you get your CFI and start giving primary training, you'll see what I mean. As for giving primary training in a Part 103 ultralight, it isn't even possible due to lack of a second seat, no less legal.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

More people train themselves in Pt 103 craft than you might imagine.
Also, if you are taking a kid where they may have 200+ dual before being allowed to solo, they can become quite competent in that time regardless the machine.
 
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Re: What Plance Should I Get

Henning said:
More people train themselves in Pt 103 craft than you might imagine.
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Since that is the only way one can train in a Part 103 vehicle, I can certainly imagine it. I can also imagine what bad pilots most of those folks must be.
Also, if you are taking a kid where they may have 200+ dual before being allowed to solo, they can become quite competent in that time regardless the machine.
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When you get your CFI snd you've trained a few like that, come back and let us know how it went.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Ron Levy said:
Since that is the only way one can train in a Part 103 vehicle, I can certainly imagine it. I can also imagine what bad pilots most of those folks must be.
When you get your CFI snd you've trained a few like that, come back and let us know how it went.
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I suggest you stop by over at the Ultralight field at OSHand watch backand forth between the big runway and little one and tell me who scores better over 100 landings.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

It is not only the initial cost of a plane, it's also the costs to maintain and operate it.

I'll sell you my Warrior for 30K. It is IFR current, everything works. It has four seats but is not a four seater on really hot days.

Properly leaned, it burns about 7gph.

It has high compressions on all cylinders, but is a high time engine. Good for three or four years of normal private flying.

OK that's my sales pitch, but the criteria applies to most any plane a flight school would have, which is primarily low operating and maintenance expenses.

A good warrior is a great first airplane. Having IFR capabilities is a big plus, even if you are not rated for it.

Your in the perfect neck of the woods for finding deals on airplanes, they are almost as common as senior citizens in Florida.

Be sure to spend the money on a pre-buy inspection. It will be the best money you ever threw away.

-John
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Ron Levy said:
Since that is the only way one can train in a Part 103 vehicle, I can certainly imagine it. I can also imagine what bad pilots most of those folks must be.
When you get your CFI snd you've trained a few like that, come back and let us know how it went.
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I've trained a few hundred. From Private to CFI, but it was all side by side in PA-28, PA-44, and PA-34 aircraft. What would be the down side you see to my plan?
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Captain said:
Does anyone learn to fly in a tail dragger? Would I be stupid to solo my boys in one?
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Yes, and no.

I learned to fly in a Cessna 120. It was no big deal to solo at all. I did struggle a bit with wheel landings at first, but once I had them down, it was easy.

A 120/140 would be a good choice if you want a certificated aircraft. (Or Luscombe, or...)

Personally I prefer homebuilt to keep the mainataince cost / nonsense to a minimum.

Something like an Avid Flyer or one of the clones (like mine) could keep you under $30K.

At the lower end of the price scale, I think that Barnstormers has the best selection - a couple hours browsing would bring up a lot of choices.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Ron Levy said:
I don't think you can alter the title of the thread once you've started it. Mods confirm?
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I changed the title on the thread list. As far as I know, there is no way to change it in all of the posts in the thread en-mass and I don't want to go through and manually change them all. :no: :wink2:
 
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Re: What Plance Should I Get

Captain said:
I've trained a few hundred. From Private to CFI, but it was all side by side in PA-28, PA-44, and PA-34 aircraft. What would be the down side you see to my plan?
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If by "my plan" you mean using an E-AB aircraft like an RV-4 as a primary trainer, fly one and you'll see. The cockpit is not roomy, it's not quiet, and the aircraft's handling characteristics are pretty slick. Also, even within a single model like the RV-4, every E-AB aircraft flies a little differently, and not always predictably. It is not a real great training environment or platform. Not saying it can't be done, but it will have extra challenges, which is why I don't recommend it.

My experience as both a student and an instructor suggests that even the certified tandem 2-seaters you mentioned (Cub, Champ, etc) have challenges for training that side-by-side doesn't. If you want a 2-seat taildragger for giving primary training, I'd suggest something side-by-side like a Cessna 120/140, Luscombe 8-series, or Aeronca Chief instead of a tandem plane. Even if you're just riding the kids around for a few years first, I think their experience and enjoyment will be enhanced if they're sitting next to dad rather than in the back where they can't see much of what's going on.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Captain said:
Does anyone learn to fly in a tail dragger? Would I be stupid to solo my boys in one?
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My daughter (in college) has expressed an interest in learning to fly. I have a 65 HP taildragger and might have her use that rather than rent a 152 but I see some pluses and minuses for either. No doubt she'd become a better pilot learning in a taildragger and it would certainly cost less. I checked with with my insurer and they only want an extra $250 to cover her as a student and if she trains in the taildragger they will cover her after she gets her PPL for no more than that. I would also expect that it will take her longer to become proficient with landings in the taildragger and I'd expect that there will be greater limitations WRT wind. It's also a little cramped inside although a 152 isn't all that much better. And on the unusual side, this particular airplane is the very one her grandmother learned to fly in when it was new which means it would be "cool" for her to use that airplane but OTOH it would be sad if she banged it up.
 
I will add another avenue you might want to follow... maybe consider building a kit plane.. the costs will be feasable, your young children can participate and they will rememeber the experience their whole lives, and when you are done you get to load up the family and fly to really fun places... Look at it as a family bonding excersize.... I would be willing to bet the kids will love the entire deal too..:yesnod::yesnod::)

BH.
 

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Re: What Plance Should I Get

Ron Levy said:
I think their experience and enjoyment will be enhanced if they're sitting next to dad rather than in the back where they can't see much of what's going on.
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Passengers and kids go up front and you fly from the back unless you are getting them ready to solo in a rear seat only plane. I have nothing against side by side though. If he's gonna own it though and only part of the job is training the kids, the Mustang II and T-18 are both good economical low cost planes to solid design and neither are ugly to fly. The cost of ownership and operation is much lower than any certified plane and the speed/dollar is also up there for a 2 seater.

For more money I'd go amphib.
 
Assuming good weather, in 28 days I will solo my granddaughter. Her only dual has been in a Citabria. I have had a great time, and I personally think the Citabria is the perfect trainer. I have had no problems flying from the back seat, and there is a benefit of sorts of having the student in the front "by themselves" - they feel more responsible I think. The student has to ask if they want the instructor to take control. Typically I don't answer or just say no. No looking at me to see if things are OK. The Citabria is a very easy taildragger to fly, and the only downside is that from the back you have to treat it like a real taildragger and S turn to taxi. At least until you can trust the student.

And in the 7GCBC you can slip with full flaps :D
 
ebetancourt said:
Assuming good weather, in 28 days I will solo my granddaughter. Her only dual has been in a Citabria. I have had a great time, and I personally think the Citabria is the perfect trainer. I have had no problems flying from the back seat, and there is a benefit of sorts of having the student in the front "by themselves" - they feel more responsible I think. The student has to ask if they want the instructor to take control. Typically I don't answer or just say no. No looking at me to see if things are OK. The Citabria is a very easy taildragger to fly, and the only downside is that from the back you have to treat it like a real taildragger and S turn to taxi. At least until you can trust the student.

And in the 7GCBC you can slip with full flaps :D
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I thought they didn't have flaps??? At least the 8kcab I flew didn't
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

gismo said:
My daughter (in college) has expressed an interest in learning to fly. I have a 65 HP taildragger and might have her use that rather than rent a 152 but I see some pluses and minuses for either. No doubt she'd become a better pilot learning in a taildragger and it would certainly cost less. I checked with with my insurer and they only want an extra $250 to cover her as a student and if she trains in the taildragger they will cover her after she gets her PPL for no more than that. I would also expect that it will take her longer to become proficient with landings in the taildragger and I'd expect that there will be greater limitations WRT wind. It's also a little cramped inside although a 152 isn't all that much better. And on the unusual side, this particular airplane is the very one her grandmother learned to fly in when it was new which means it would be "cool" for her to use that airplane but OTOH it would be sad if she banged it up.
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Sounds like it's time for you to get your CFI.
 
Random data point:

One of the nephews grew up flying with my brother in his T-18. His first "lesson" was in a Pitts (Spins, rolls, loops, etc.).

He now flies a King Air (he decided to give up on airshows as a profession after a couple seasons).
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

bartmc said:
A few exist, http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.202178150215.139540.79219185215&type=3

There's another one flying that isn't as nice of a design as Steve's.

And here's your 172


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P.S. I realized he said taildragger (even stated as much in my post) but not a lot about his post suggested that a nose wheel deficient airplane was what he truly wanted, training his kids, budget etc...
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You can't touch one for budget. A Stinson 108 wouldn't be a bad deal along those lines though.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Captain said:
Does anyone learn to fly in a tail dragger? Would I be stupid to solo my boys in one?
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Well, before WWII, pilots had almost no choice at all. It was solo in a taildragger or not learn to fly. Lindbergh virtually taught himself and solo'd in five hours in a Jenny. No brakes, narrow gear. Yeah it can be done. Don't let the boys know that it is supposed to be difficult and they will never know any different, they will just do it.

I started flying in an Aeronca Champ 20 years ago and was ready to solo, but the instructor decided not to buy the insurance so I had to go to a 150 but never finished my PPL. When I came back to flying one year ago last month I flew a few hours in a 150 before buying my 140 and learning to fly, soloing and getting my PPL. After the checkride, the DPE had to point out to my instructor that he needed to put the TW endorsement in my logbook.

I have read and heard a number of competent CFI's say that a beginner can often solo a taildragger in no more hours than a tricycle. I'm sure this depends on the CFI AND the student.

Once your boys learn to fly a taildragger they will be able to step into a nose dragger no problem. I taught both my kids to drive in a stick shift car. They were both apprehensive about driving an automatic and were AMAZED when they learned how easy it was. They both drive sticks even today.

Yes, a taildragger is a hoot! The only way I will finish out my flying days NOT in a taildragger will be if I win the lottery and buy a Citation or some such.

Even as a rookie pilot, I get complements and comments when I show up in a taildragger and there is a certain sense of accomplishment that I enjoy.

Tailwheel flying is not magic. It can be learned by anyone who decides that they want to learn to do it.

For your budget, you could buy a 170 which can be thought of as a four place 140. You could buy a 140 for your budget and have plenty of money left over to set aside for the added expen$e$ of airplane ownership.

Don't fear the tailwheel. It's a love affair you will enjoy for the rest of your life.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Captain said:
Btw, there is load of time for the instruction thing. My boys are 9 and 7 and are at the stage where Dad is still cool. I'd really like to expose them to flying. Right now they know dad is a pilot and are very interested. I had an opportunity to take them flying on a company plane last weekend and they liked it so much they didn't even complain about the 3 hr drive home. They couldn't wait to tell Mom about their adventure!

So now I've taken them flying twice in their lives. The first was in a rental and that is no longer an option.

So, I'd like to keep this going and not have to wait another 5 years to give them a :45 minute ride. I never fly GA now, but I have kept my CFI, CFII and MEI current through the years.
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You're a savvy parent. Spending time with your kids is the most important thing you will do in your life and it sounds like you know that. These boys solo in a taildragger and they will have confidence and swagger that can make them leaders instead of followers. This is one of the best thing you could do with your kids.

A Champ is a GREAT plane for cruising around and learning how to really fly.
 
I tend to tell people for their first ownership experience to get something uber common and simple. Further, if I read right, the OP said boys, as in the plural, meaning more than one. Why one would get an airplane where one can only fly one of two children at a time is beyond me. Personally, I think it a bit thoughtless. One can teach flying in an inexpensive four seater of whatever variety, and if child number two wants to come with, cool beans. Moreover, if the family wants to visit Amelia Island on Sunday, the trip may be doable with four seats.
 
steingar said:
I tend to tell people for their first ownership experience to get something uber common and simple. Further, if I read right, the OP said boys, as in the plural, meaning more than one. Why one would get an airplane where one can only fly one of two children at a time is beyond me. Personally, I think it a bit thoughtless. One can teach flying in an inexpensive four seater of whatever variety, and if child number two wants to come with, cool beans. Moreover, if the family wants to visit Amelia Island on Sunday, the trip may be doable with four seats.
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Assuming he still wants a taildragger, it sounds like you just described a Cessna 170.
 
steingar said:
I tend to tell people for their first ownership experience to get something uber common and simple. Further, if I read right, the OP said boys, as in the plural, meaning more than one. Why one would get an airplane where one can only fly one of two children at a time is beyond me. Personally, I think it a bit thoughtless. One can teach flying in an inexpensive four seater of whatever variety, and if child number two wants to come with, cool beans. Moreover, if the family wants to visit Amelia Island on Sunday, the trip may be doable with four seats.
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I did say "two" boys. It'd be great to take everybody. I'm not being thoughtless, I'm just giving thought to economies as well and sort of assumed a 4 seater is going to be out of range.
 
Captain said:
I did say "two" boys. It'd be great to take everybody. I'm not being thoughtless, I'm just giving thought to economies as well and sort of assumed a 4 seater is going to be out of range.
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That's silly. What you quoted will purchase a lot of airplane. I just can't see you taking one boy without the other saying "me too".

Now if you want the antique taildragger acrobating experimental whatever, then your options get more limited more quickly.
 
steingar said:
That's silly. What you quoted will purchase a lot of airplane. I just can't see you taking one boy without the other saying "me too".

Now if you want the antique taildragger acrobating experimental whatever, then your options get more limited more quickly.
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You speak truth.
 
Seriously I just saw a stinson 108 on Controller, 450 on the Franklin Engine, advertised for $25,000. KLX 125 and a KT76 transponder. All you really need at that price.
 
Re: What Plance Should I Get

Captain said:
I was looking at some Champs online. Can you fly from the back seat? How could I teach my boys?
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I used to fly my Citabria (a big-engined aerobatic Champ) from the back seat, but would only do it with aviation familiar people in the front. The front seat person needs to do the mixture and radios, but the mags and trim can be reached from either seat, plus the dual sticks, throttles and pedals.
 
Captain said:
I did say "two" boys. It'd be great to take everybody. I'm not being thoughtless, I'm just giving thought to economies as well and sort of assumed a 4 seater is going to be out of range.
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I think a Stinson 108 would be a great option. As the family grows you can hang a 470 on the nose and haul whatever you want.

The problem with learning TW for most people is one of primacy and poor initial training. A TW doesn't really do anything different to use the rudder correctly, it's just that a tricycle saves you from damage for not learning rudder use correctly. If your first landing is in a TW plane, you never learn to not use the rudder.
 
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