What plane fits?

[MSPAviator]

To thow another question in. How do you guys feel about the cherokee?

Good plane for a trainer, you'll need to rent an Arrow for your complex time though. Cherokees and Arrows fly basically the same because they are basically the same airplanes.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron: Well it's a difficult question to answer given my situation. I have the makings of a deal with the owner of a local flight school that may allow me to drastically decrease the money out of my pocket for expenses. Basically he'd have access to it for students wanting to pursue a commercial licensees and he'd pay for most of the upkeep and the hangar expense. There is also the possibility of us going into fractional ownership depending on how everything continues.

That could be a very good deal for you depending on just how you structure the agreement. For more on leaseback issues, see below.

For myself 30K isn't unreasonable with how much I have set back now and the fact my family is willing to help in exchange for frequent vacations. I could also muster some more if something opportune presented itself.

Given all your requirements, something in the Cessna Cutlass/Beech Sierra/Piper Arrow group would probably be the best fit. While they do have four seats, they really can't haul four adults with very much gas, so you get the extra room but don't have to pay for the larger engine needed to haul that much payload any distance. However, a $30K airplane in that class is going to be pretty rickety. For example, the ads I'm seeing for Arrows are generally in the $50-70K range -- only those with run-out engines or VFR-only are significantly lower.

The 250/260 Comanche would be rather a lot of mass for CP training, is engine rather a drain economically in that environment. A 180 Comanche would be more like it, but they are much older and have various maintenance issues which would make them less suitable for CP training compared to the three I suggested.

Now, for that leaseback advice from the inimitable Jason Hegel (reproduced by permission)...

Captain Jason’s Leaseback Advice:

1. Leasebacks are a business, always treat them like one. Never get emotionally attached to a leaseback airplane, it will get abused just like a rental car does, and you don't go seeking those out when you buy a used car, do you? Put leaseback aircraft in corporations, run their books separately, have a separate tax return for the aircraft each year, etc. Talk to your CPA and lawyer, make sure you understand both the legal and tax issues.

2. You can make a lot of money with a leaseback. You can lose a lot of money with a leaseback. Many of the factors of making/losing money are completely outside of your control. If your goal in a leaseback is to have someone else pay for your personal airplane, you probably are not going to be happy with the result. If your goal is to defer the cost of your own flying, get your ratings, and perhaps make some money on the side, you can do well if you pick the right FBO/flight school to do business with.

3. If you leaseback an aircraft to an honest FBO, you have a chance to do well. If you leaseback an aircraft to a crook, you have no chance at all. Get to know with whom you are doing business. Ask around the airport, talk to the other owners, etc. Be careful of any FBO that pushes you to get into this too quickly. The best will be honest and upfront about the risks and will caution you to avoid it if you have doubts. Talk to other owners at the FBO, find out how they have been treated.

4. You must run the numbers from a realistic viewpoint, remember this is a business. Take what you're paid each hour by the FBO and subtract the per hour costs such as fuel and maintenance reserves (if you don’t, that $15,000 engine is going to surprise you). That figure is your actual hourly income (the rest does not exist for this calculation) Take the monthly fixed costs and divide them by that "true" per hour income. That is the number of hours the aircraft must fly each month to break even. The monthly fixed costs must include insurance, tie-down, and the "payment", even if there is no payment on the aircraft. The cash you might pay for an aircraft has value, if you don't include it in the monthly fixed costs, you're letting the FBO use your money for free. So add in what the payment would be if you had one.

5. You're still a renter, you just rent one specific aircraft for a reduced rate, but you're still a renter and must schedule your flights along with everyone else. Do you have the right to bump paying customers? If so, how much notice must you give? If you are inclined to "bump" paying customers for your own flying very often, you're probably a poor leaseback candidate. You'll upset those customers and you'll be hurting your own income stream. Find out about renting other airplanes at the FBO for a discounted rate if your plane is down, or otherwise busy. Everything in a leaseback is negotiable, so ask!

6. The standard leaseback agreement is the basic 80/20 plan. You get 80% of the per hour rental rate, the FBO gets 20%. Out of your 80% you pay fuel, insurance, tie-down, maintenance, and the "payment" for the aircraft (again, this has nothing to do with actually having a bank loan or not, it is the monthly value of the money invested into the airplane). Some FBOs do leasebacks differently, and if you run across one of them, be really sure of what they are offering before you sign on the dotted line.

7. FBOs like leasebacks because it removes all the risk from them. They get 20% of the rental rate, yet do not have to own or maintain a fleet of airplanes (and sometimes they make money off the maintenance). You absorb all that risk. In exchange for that risk, you have the chance to make some money, and you'll be able to fly for about half the price of renting (or less).

8. The best leaseback deals are on aircraft that fly a lot of hours each month. A Cessna 172 that flies 80 hours a month will almost always make money. A Piper Arrow that flies 20 hours a month will almost always lose money. The breakeven point on most single engine airplanes is around 50 hours and the leaseback becomes really worth doing from a profit perspective at 65 hours. I know of a case where a Piper Arrow was leased to a flight school and it flew 60 hours over 8 months. The owner lost a lot of money in insurance and maintenance. I also know of a case where a Cessna 172 was leased to a flight school and it flew an average of 87.2 hours a month over a 12-month period, the owner made a fair amount of money that year.

9. Don’t put a brand new airplane on leaseback, they lose too much value the first few years and are very quickly not new anymore when on a rental line. An example is the 1999 172SP I bought. I paid $124,000 for it with a fresh engine installed. It would cost about $209,000 to buy that plane new, in its current configuration (in 2004). Since even a new plane looks used very quickly on a rental line, I saved $80,000 (or about 1/3 the price) in exchange for having 2,200 hours already on the airframe. Those hours do not affect the rental rate. There is one exception to this rule however, and that is the new 50% bonus tax deduction signed into law by President Bush. If you have a need for a $150,000 tax deduction this year, buying a brand new 172SP for $209,000 does make sense, because of the unusual tax benefits offered by the new law.

10. Only do a leaseback if you can afford to own the airplane without the leaseback. Used aircraft can be expensive the first few months you own them. Don't expect to take anything home the first six months. People who already have money seem to do well with leasebacks. Those who really cannot afford an airplane in the first place seem to do poorly. These are generalizations of course, but there is an old saw that says it takes money to make money.

11. Buy the right aircraft, the right way. You can do everything else right, but if you buy the wrong aircraft or pay too much, you'll lose every time. This doesn't mean pick a Cessna 172 over a Piper Warrior, this means pick the right Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior. Some airplanes just shouldn't be leased back. A Mooney or Bonanza are good examples. Very old airplanes often make poor leasebacks as well. The only airplane older than about 25 years I'd leaseback would be a Cessna 150. You want something reliable with a known history. Avoid the very high time and very low time airplanes. Avoid an airplane that hasn’t flown much recently. An airplane that has had 500 hours put on it in the past 10 years will have a lot of things break when the flight school puts 500 hours on it in 6 months. I’ve seen this happen to others and it happened to me with my 172N.

12. You must sometimes spend money to make money. People want to rent airplanes with nice interiors and good panels. If the per hour rental rate is equal, would you rather fly in a Cessna 172 with ARC radios and no GPS, or a full Garmin panel? The new panel and a new interior might add 20% to the price of the airplane but double your monthly profit.

13. Look over the past two years records of similar airplanes at the FBO you’re looking at doing business with. Not just the total hours flown, but how much has been spent on maintenance and how much total income there was after all costs. There is no more honest way to see what to expect than to look at the real world figures from existing aircraft on the FBOs rental line. Do not leaseback to anyone who won't show you the records on the existing airplanes and introduce you to the other aircraft owners.

14. Think long and hard about why you're doing this. Many people get into leasebacks for all the wrong reasons, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. A leaseback can make sense for some people, it can be a disaster for others. It generally isn't a good way to go about having someone else pay for your own personal airplane, since it will wear faster and not be cared for as well as if it were your own. In addition, you're limited in what you can do with it, given that you still have to schedule it and can’t take it very far without it costing you a lot in lost income. It can however provide you with your ratings, some money, and some low cost flying if managed well.

15. To sum it up, a leaseback is often used to reduce the cost of flying, sometimes it is used to make money, sometimes it is used as a tax shelter (consult your tax advisor on this one). The months I did a lot of personal flying, I tended to break even, and have lost money a few months, but then if you consider what my flying would have cost otherwise, I came out way ahead. If you can't afford to own regardless of the leaseback income, consider that you're making a serious commitment and while it is very easy to buy a plane, it can be hard to sell one.

For the record, I had three aircraft on leaseback with two different flight schools at Addison. A 1977 Cessna 172N, a 1999 Cessna 172SP, and a 1997 Schweizer 300CB helicopter. I did well with the older 172 and the helicopter, the 172SP mostly broke even, but I did fly it about 100 hours personally without paying a dime, so it wasn’t too bad. I earned my commercial and CFI license in both airplanes and helicopters, flew almost 500 personal hours between all the aircraft, and came out $36,000 ahead at the end of the day. I sold them once I was done flight instructing, and have since bought a Piper Twin Comanche for my personal use. I considered leasing it back, but choose not to because I want it available to fly whenever I want to go, one thing that isn’t possible with a leaseback.

 

[poadeleted20]

To thow another question in. How do you guys feel about the cherokee?

Which Cherokee? They range from the 140 to the 235, and both prices and capabilities vary widely. Or are you speaking of the Cherokee Arrow, which is complex (that being one of your stated requirements)?

 

[Henning]

To thow another question in. How do you guys feel about the cherokee?

Meh. Nothing particularly wrong with them, but they have never inspired me to mor than 'meh'. They fly just fine, they have their faults and issues just like any other. If you are looking at a retract Cherokee Arrow PA-28-200/1, they come at a bit of a cost premium over an equivalent Mooney 20 because flight schools like them for their Commercial program plane as they have a simple as possible transition from their fleet of their PA-28-160/1 Cherokee Warriors they do their basic and instrument training in. The Mooney is also about as fuel efficient as you get.

 

[Icarus]

Sorry about the absence.

Ron: That is extremely helpful and informative. Thank you tons seriously. I may have more questions on leasebacks at a later date but for now I'll try to remain focused.

As for the cherokee. Really any model? Which fit why and what kinda pricetag would I be looking at. I am somewhat unlearned in the cherokee so I would just appreciate any relative information.

Henning: how is the upkeep on the Mooney

 

[Henning]

Sorry about the absence.

Ron: That is extremely helpful and informative. Thank you tons seriously. I may have more questions on leasebacks at a later date but for now I'll try to remain focused.

As for the cherokee. Really any model? Which fit why and what kinda pricetag would I be looking at. I am somewhat unlearned in the cherokee so I would just appreciate any relative information.

Henning: how is the upkeep on the Mooney

Upkeep is inversely related to condition at purchase. They aren't better or worse than anything else of that horsepower.

 

[Kristin]

A 180 Comanche would be more like it, but they are much older and have various maintenance issues which would make them less suitable for CP training compared to the three I suggested.

What "maintenance issues" does a 180 Comanche have which would make them less suitable for CP training?

 

[EdFred]

What "maintenance issues" does a 180 Comanche have which would make them less suitable for CP training?

The same issues that all the Comanches have that are espoused by non-owners, duh!

Those 1000 hour inspection ADs are a killer you know.

 

[Insane]

Hello everyone to introduce myself I am a soonish to be private pilot and I really like to get a head start on the problems I will face later down the road. I don't have a lot of money to my name, working at a local gas station and grabbing plenty of overtime to afford school without assistance, but I have a very definite direction and am willing to do what it takes to get there.

My intention is this. To first obtain my Private License and then continue to IFR and from there grab my Commercial and CFI essentially simultaneously. I know it's a long long road ahead and so I figured I would try and equip myself with tools I can utilize for the whole ride.

So my question is. I need an affordable single engine piston complex aircraft with RG. I also intend on making frequent trips to and from Denver ideally with the ability to bring my family or one or two friends so I would like but do not absolutely need a 4 placer. I have also struck somewhat of a deal locally that will set me up with drastically decreased hangar prices and discounts on several other essentials (e.g. Oil) the stipulation of that being that the plane can not be a turbo and has to be something acceptable to train students in. Can you help me?

-Icarus

Icarus, where are you in your training process? Are you just starting or are you going to actually get your PPL fairly soon? If you're just starting, as interesting as all this discussion is about the various options, it may not be a bad idea to rent for a while to make sure you want to do this and have the ability. Last thing you want is to buy a plane, then discover you either cannot or do not want to complete the PPL.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Insane is not only not insane but has posted the most lucid words on this subject. This fellow is asking questions easily answered in a short time verbally at any small airport. Tiresome.

 

[DavidWhite]

Hello everyone to introduce myself I am a soonish to be private pilot and I really like to get a head start on the problems I will face later down the road. I don't have a lot of money to my name, working at a local gas station and grabbing plenty of overtime to afford school without assistance, but I have a very definite direction and am willing to do what it takes to get there.

My intention is this. To first obtain my Private License and then continue to IFR and from there grab my Commercial and CFI essentially simultaneously. I know it's a long long road ahead and so I figured I would try and equip myself with tools I can utilize for the whole ride.

So my question is. I need an affordable single engine piston complex aircraft with RG. I also intend on making frequent trips to and from Denver ideally with the ability to bring my family or one or two friends so I would like but do not absolutely need a 4 placer. I have also struck somewhat of a deal locally that will set me up with drastically decreased hangar prices and discounts on several other essentials (e.g. Oil) the stipulation of that being that the plane can not be a turbo and has to be something acceptable to train students in. Can you help me?

-Icarus

Where in Texas are you? An airplane that can fly from Lubbock to Denver is gonna be a lot different airplane than one that can go from Corpus to Denver. It's a big state.

 

[Kristin]

Insane is not only not insane but has posted the most lucid words on this subject. This fellow is asking questions easily answered in a short time verbally at any small airport. Tiresome.

Do you object to all questions by new pilots or just the ones that bore you?

 

[Henning]

Where in Texas are you? An airplane that can fly from Lubbock to Denver is gonna be a lot different airplane than one that can go from Corpus to Denver. It's a big state.

I don't care what the plane is so long as it gets me out of Texas...

 

[Icarus]

Insane: I am well into my private. I'm still a few hours off but the goal is just on the horizon. I'm committed and I would not have come here if there was a chance I'd be wasting your time.

Jim: I mean no disrespect but I didn't realize the flight following section of Pilot's of America was the wrong place to ask even basic questions about aviation. I know that I can find this information elsewhere but I have found that different pilots have different opinions so I try to gather as many sources as possible. Also I appreciate all the help and information you have given thus far but if answering my questions is tiresome then I must remind you that you have no obligation to answer any further questions so thank you again and I honestly don't mean to come off harsh but I am going to continue asking questions here AND at my local airport.

 

[Henning]

Don't worry about asking questions, no two situations are the same and the answer may change with just one change of situation. You may be able to find the same discussion hashed out elsewhere, but it may not fully apply to you.

 

[Icarus]

Bobanna: I completely agree with you sir. I have been thinking a lot on the situation and I fully intend on renting as many types as possible and gathering as much experience as I can given time money and circumstances. I have been given an exceptional deal with the local school to lease a plane to them and essentially guarantee that the expenses are covered. There is even a possibility that I could generate income from the same deal. I don't want to come off to any of you like some young guy who is just blasting into a situation. One reason I am here asking these questions is to further insure that I am making the most educated decision I can. Rest assured that I have no intention of taking any action for at least another few months.

David: I'm out of Amarillo. Home base to be KAMA

Henning: True! And Thank you

 

[Kristin]

The question then becomes is what kind of plane does the FBO think will get the most use. In a single-engine retract, the most plane for the least amount of money that is a workable leaseback complex trainer is a 180 Comanche or an Arrow. I like them both. Per hour costs favor the Comanche if you get one is decent condition so you don't have to play catch up. However, the difference in operating costs is small enough that the deciding factor should be the condition and price of what is available.

One caveat here, if the FBO is not willing to get educated on the Comanche by plugging into the community, you have to be willing to assume that role, or it will not be successful. The Comanche is a stronger airframe and better performer than an Arrow, especially at higher altitudes. It is also nicer to fly. But it has its quirks that need to be corralled. Properly maintained they are efficient, reliable, comfortable, and fun to fly. Fortunately, there is an active community for support and over in Clifton, TX there is a shop that is one of the best with Comanches to help you get started on the right foot if you go that way.

The Arrow II was my first complex aircraft flown and I loved it. I still do. It doesn't have any serious vices and is a pretty known quantity maintenance-wise and most any shop can work on them. The insurance might be cheaper with the Arrow than the Comanche, but fuel cost and engine overhaul costs will be higher.

 

[Henning]

The question then becomes is what kind of plane does the FBO think will get the most use. In a single-engine retract, the most plane for the least amount of money that is a workable leaseback complex trainer is a 180 Comanche or an Arrow. I like them both. Per hour costs favor the Comanche if you get one is decent condition so you don't have to play catch up. However, the difference in operating costs is small enough that the deciding factor should be the condition and price of what is available.

One caveat here, if the FBO is not willing to get educated on the Comanche by plugging into the community, you have to be willing to assume that role, or it will not be successful. The Comanche is a stronger airframe and better performer than an Arrow, especially at higher altitudes. It is also nicer to fly. But it has its quirks that need to be corralled. Properly maintained they are efficient, reliable, comfortable, and fun to fly. Fortunately, there is an active community for support and over in Clifton, TX there is a shop that is one of the best with Comanches to help you get started on the right foot if you go that way.

The Arrow II was my first complex aircraft flown and I loved it. I still do. It doesn't have any serious vices and is a pretty known quantity maintenance-wise and most any shop can work on them. The insurance might be cheaper with the Arrow than the Comanche, but fuel cost and engine overhaul costs will be higher.

The thing I noticed about the 180 Comanche (as well as most of the rest of the line) that makes them deal breakers for many FBO operations is the old style 'shotgun' panels. People want a six pack or glass.

 

[Kristin]

The thing I noticed about the 180 Comanche (as well as most of the rest of the line) that makes them deal breakers for many FBO operations is the old style 'shotgun' panels. People want a six pack or glass.

That is a consideration, but I am seeing more and more of them that have a custom panel. There is an STC and supplier that has a panel kit that can be customized the way the buyer wants it. I have seen some beautiful ones, including a 180 here on my home airport. Also, from 1969 on, all Comanches had a standard 6 pack panel.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Lots of good comments here. I don't even have my private yet, so take the following with a few grains of salt.

I've worked through the same questions you're asking, minus the commercial part. The difference is that in my town to get a PPL I'd need to do so in my own plane. There was one rental 172 available that my preferred CFI wouldn't fly in due to airworthiness issues, but that was it. I would offer the following:

1. Use the search function here. It's pretty reasonable at finding past discussions.
2. Join Aviation Consumer. It's cheap, and all their back issues are available on their web site. They also do pretty good buyer's guides, so you can get another look at an airframe you're considering. I printed off a bunch and put them in a binder...
3. Join the type clubs for the aircraft you're considering. Good, solid source of info. Do the same for online communities - Kristin was very useful on the Airworthy Comanche Forum, for instance. Hell, she even talked to me on the phone.
4. Once you've done all the research, be honest about a budget and plug the numbers into Excel. See what really fits your budget and your mission.

In my case, my mission is flights of 400 NM or less, generally with one passenger, and I wanted something like a Comanche or a Mooney. After working the numbers, especially the option to use mogas (which currently costs $3.60 around here) the cheapest option was a pre-N model Cessna 172. Not sexy, but very affordable with a good market for resale.

When I say "affordable," I mean:

• Fuel cost is low. Mogas helps a bunch ($2 per gallon savings is ~ $16 per hour saved), and you'll need to research this if it's an option in your area. Don't assume either - on some planes a mogas STC is available that just involves paperwork; for other airframes it's much more expensive.
• Insurance is affordable. On a 172 for a zero time pilot I was quoted $950 per year for $1,000,000 in coverage with a $100 deductible. The best the broker could do for me on a Comanche 250 was $2,500 with a $5,000 deductible if the plane was in motion when the accident occurred.
• Maintenance. Perfect retractable landing gear seems to cost $1,000 per year for the additional effort on the annual to swing the gear. For a worst-case example see a recent thread either here or on the AOPA forums titled "I just can't stand it" about extreme Arrow annuals due to gear issues on a high-time airframe. You should probably budget for somewhere in the middle.

That Skyhawk that might be in your budget isn't sexy, but it's about as affordable as aircraft ownership gets, and it'll only be about 30 minutes slower on a 300 NM trip than something that cruises at 130 knots.

That won't work for your commercial, but it will get you through your instrument rating and should be reasonably cheap to keep (again, in aircraft terms.) The market for them seems pretty brisk as well, and it would be something that can make for a reasonable lease-back if you go that route (though I wouldn't - I can't see why a legitimate company would do lease-backs if there was actually a profitable niche at the airfield rather than buying a plane themselves to fill the niche...)

Good luck. Take your time, research, and don't get in a hurry. In the end the goal is to find the right plane for your situation, which might not be the one you're leaning toward right now. You can always upgrade later, and you can always bite off more than you can afford up front (there are some twins for sale that cost less than a typical Skyhawk, for instance...)

 

[hindsight2020]

The insurance might be cheaper with the Arrow than the Comanche, but fuel cost and engine overhaul costs will be higher.

How so? I must be reading it wrong. My arrow II does 130 on 9gph between 6k-9k, or 130/8gph 125/7gph at 11-13K. That's 16-18nmpg. My understanding is that a comanche is a 150-155 bird on 11-13gph. That's 14 NMPG tops.

The IO-360 cylinders on the -200 are more expensive (angle valved) than a parallel valved -540, but the 540 has two more of them. According to my cursory online pricing search, the 540 is slightly more expensive to overhaul.

A comanche is a superior airplane to the Arrow II. Matter if fact I wouldn't mind owning one if it came already with a modern IFR panel layout. But it isn't cheaper to operate and maintain than an Arrow. Not on the gear, not on the engine, not on the airframe. I'm actually proud of the savings inherent to the mediocrity of my commoner airplane choices.

 

[Icarus]

Kristin: That is in fact part of the driving factor on why I wish to purchase a Complex RG. Currently the school only has a pair of 172's and the school is looking to expand into a RG Complex soon. So the owner of the school gave me the offer that if I get a plane fitting his requirements I could lease it to him and easily cover the upkeep costs as well as possibly pull in a small profit to more easily afford to expand in the aviation field. I trust the owner and have become somewhat decent friends with him so I am willing to follow through with the plan. So buying an aircraft that has RG and is in the Complex category will allow me to not only have an affordable vessel to further my personal experience and attain my ratings but will greatly benefit his school. I am still debating right now between a Comanche, Arrow or even a Cutlass at the moment. All fit the parameters and he even name dropped the Arrow and Cutlass previously.


Derek Zeanah: I certainly understand the importance of weighing options and looking at the budget. (I'm here after all) The prospective deal I have to cover a great deal if not all the expenses requires a RG so despite the increase in cost of maintenance I am essentially decided that the plane I will purchase is going to fit the previously stated parameters. I am doing quite a bit of in depth research into each of the planes that have been mentioned in this topic and I actually have an excel document detailing the high end budgets required for each. I am more hoping to gather peoples individual opinions on the planes and advice from those with experience. I do greatly appreciate the tip on Mogas. It's something Iv'e briefly covered and plan to look into locally soon.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Well, if you're definitely going to buy a plane to put on leaseback, then that's another question. When I discussed that the local school had a real preference for an Arrow due to the throttle quadrant layout due to the expectations of the foreign students they were trying to bring in.

If your local outfit sees things similarly, then this might be a much simpler question.