What is ATC

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swamppilot

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swamppilot
From some of the responses to a thread about trnasiting Class D airspace, it is obvious that some don't understand what makes up ATC. There were posts which said that ATC would hand you off to the Class D controller and the the Class D controller would hand you back off to ATC when you had transited their airspace. Folks, Class D controllers are part of ATC, just as Approach controllers and Center controllers are.

If you are in Class B or Class C airspace you are talking to an Appraoch controller (either a TRACON: Radar Approach Control, or a RAPCON: Radar Approach Control). If you are between Approach controls, you will be talking to a Center ( ARTCC: Air Route Traffic Control Center). If yor are in San Juan you will be talking to a CENRAP, a combined Appraoch and Center.

If you are in Class D, you may be in either an Appraoch control's or Center's airspace, depending on the local setup. The airspace around a Class D airport actually is either the Center's or Appraoch's airsapce, but that facility cannot put an aircraft into the airspace without coordinating with the Class D controller; ie the Tower. This is to provide a clear VFR pattern for the tower. The Class D controller CANNOT provide any separation between airborne aircraft, they only provide separation on the runways and taxiways.

IFR aircraft must be coordinated with the Tower before entry into the Class D. VFR aircraft must be coordinated with the Tower, or terminated before entry into the Class D. If you depart IFR, your clearance, which provides separation, comes from either the Center or Approach control. The Tower is just relaying. Some Letters of Agreement (LOA's) between the Tower and either Approach or Center, allow the Tower to clear an aircraft to a certain altitude prior to coordinating with the Center or Approach, but those facilities ultimately provide the ceparation.

Some Class D's do have a radar display, but they are not certified to provide separation, the display is for their use in identifying and sequencing aircraft.
 
But you forgot the most important part. Controllers must not wear blue jeans. Just ask my boss.:(
 
I was on a class b clearance with an approach controller one day. The controller was giving me vectors and vectored me over a class D airport. Once I was over the airport the controller advised me that I had just entered class D airspace without contacting the class D tower. He said that he was not the controlling authority for the class D airspace and I was required to talk to the tower controller. I pointed out that his vectors took me there. He responded saying that I'm not to fly his vectors into other airspace.

I contacted the tower, explained approaches stupidity, and continued on my way. Sometimes even the controllers don't get it.
 
At what altitude, Jesse?
 
swamppilot said:
Some Class D's do have a radar display, but they are not certified to provide separation, the display is for their use in identifying and sequencing aircraft.
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I thought all Class D was under radar coverage just that not every tower at the primary airport within the class D had a display to see the radar returns. Only the approach controller was seeing what was there.

BTW I was also under the impression at no time does the tower have responsibility for separation of air traffic, only ground traffic.
 
jesse said:
I was on a class b clearance with an approach controller one day. The controller was giving me vectors and vectored me over a class D airport. Once I was over the airport the controller advised me that I had just entered class D airspace without contacting the class D tower. He said that he was not the controlling authority for the class D airspace and I was required to talk to the tower controller. I pointed out that his vectors took me there. He responded saying that I'm not to fly his vectors into other airspace.
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To which the proper response would be, "Sir, I respectfully suggest you read the Controller's Handbook to learn your responsibilities."

==============================
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.
==============================
 
"What is ATC" is a great topic, IMO, to start explaining aviation to non-pilots. When I take someone flying, one of the first things (if they're interested) I explain is what ATC is and what it isn't.

Most are very surprised to hear that ATC's primary responsibility is to ensure separation of traffic and little more. They're equally surprised to learn that participation is not mandatory and that we let ATC know what we want to do rather than the other way around.

Off-topic, but the thread title makes it ok :p

-Felix
 
I've had RFD approach tell me to change altitude or heading to avoid JVL class D.

jesse said:
I was on a class b clearance with an approach controller one day. The controller was giving me vectors and vectored me over a class D airport. Once I was over the airport the controller advised me that I had just entered class D airspace without contacting the class D tower. He said that he was not the controlling authority for the class D airspace and I was required to talk to the tower controller. I pointed out that his vectors took me there. He responded saying that I'm not to fly his vectors into other airspace.

I contacted the tower, explained approaches stupidity, and continued on my way. Sometimes even the controllers don't get it.
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smigaldi said:
I thought all Class D was under radar coverage just that not every tower at the primary airport within the class D had a display to see the radar returns. Only the approach controller was seeing what was there.
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I gather that these misconceptions have been dispelled. Not all towers have radar displays, and many Class D areas fall outside/below radar coverage.
BTW I was also under the impression at no time does the tower have responsibility for separation of air traffic, only ground traffic.
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Technically, Tower remains responsible for separation of IFR traffic, but their responsibility to VFR traffic is only separation on the runway. That said, if two VFR aircraft run together in the pattern, the local controller on duty is in for a real bad ride.
 
You are, however, getting separation service when VFR in a Class B airport. That's why you can fly "clear of clouds".

-Skip
 
jesse said:
. I pointed out that his vectors took me there. He responded saying that I'm not to fly his vectors into other airspace.
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He needs to read the controller's handbook again. They're not supposed to vector or route traffic into another airspace without the appropriate authority/coordination.

Poop happens. Every freaking year Chicago Approach runs a special approach sector on the lakeshore for VFR advisories during Oshkosh. I got right up to Miegs one year and asked if they were coordinating that, no, Radar Services Termianted have a nice day. I don't think Miegs ever caught my position until I called clear.
 
yeah controllers arent perfect either.... a few years ago, one night real late leaving atlantic city out of Bader feild before it closed i departed and contacted a/c departure at about 1100 ft.(a/c class C starts at 1400 ft) ..the controller came back and said something like...ill give you a different frequency to call but for now just keep climbing its ok.(i was prob the only aircraft they were working since it was very late and the controllers were having thier own conversations before i contacted them).
so i kept climbing and was given a new freq.to call...i switched freqs. and called again giving my intentions ect ect. by this time i was at 2000 ft and a diff. controller answers me and says that i busted his airspace and thats a big "NO-NO" ..i guess they ddint coordinate that well....and still to this day i dont know why i was told to switch freqs...i called on the usual freq. that is always used..
but noone seemed to mind too much...prob since it was late with no air traffic anywhere


Ant
 
Technically, you're wrong on one point Ron. A Tower, especially a Class D Tower is NOT responsible for separating airborne IFR aircraft. Separation responsibility belongs to either the Center, or the Approach control, in whose airspace the Class D airport is located. I'm sure that out there somewhere, there is an exception to this, but as a general rule, Tower controllers are not certified to provide airborne separation.
 
swamppilot said:
Technically, you're wrong on one point Ron. A Tower, especially a Class D Tower is NOT responsible for separating airborne IFR aircraft. Separation responsibility belongs to either the Center, or the Approach control, in whose airspace the Class D airport is located. I'm sure that out there somewhere, there is an exception to this, but as a general rule, Tower controllers are not certified to provide airborne separation.
Click to expand...

The way I understand it, within class D airspace, the control tower is responsible for the airborne separation of IFR aircraft, but the overlaying TRACON or ARTCC may be responsible for radar separation until that aircraft lands if within radar coverage. No separation services are provided (or guaranteed rather) to VFR aircraft.

A prime example of this is when an aircraft descends below the predefined sector altitude triggering an MSAW inside class D airspace, prompting the TRACON or ARTCC responsible for radar separation to immediately contact the tower to advise them of the MSAW.

I'll have to check the 7110.65 in the morning.
 
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