What is a fair price?

How much is a fair price to pay a ferry pilot per day of work?

  • $100-$200

    Votes: 4 11.4%

  • $200-$300

    Votes: 17 48.6%

  • $300+

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • Total voters
    35
BenZwebner

BenZwebner

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Gaithersburg, MD
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Ben Zwebner
Hello Everyone!

You all know I ferry planes. I was looking at my competition and I was a bit surprised to see that there are a lot of low timers our there trying to build hours charging only $100 per day, some even doing it for free!

And I wonder why my business is slow :incazzato:

The idea of this thread is for me to gauge what plane owners and the general public (yup, you guys represent the general public of aviators to me at least! :cornut:) think is a fair price for a ferry pilots services.

Right now I am focusing on Domestic ferry jobs.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
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It depends on the plane type to some extent. Free is bad. I would say $250 a day is reasonable for a single piston engine ferry. Plus expenses of course. If you want to see huge flaming threads, go to one of the professional aviation webboards and bring up the issue of pilots doing commerical flying for free to "build time." Tell your prospective clients to check their insurance open pilot requirements before they sign up the low timer.
 
Ben its the same in a lot of professions. In the law we see attorneys taking on hearing for less than $500 that is really rock bottom. Of course the client dosen't get great representation but most of the time they don't even know.

There is nothing wrong with pricing yourself competitivly though.
 
I voted 200-300, but I base that on a basic single/twin piston engine.
 
EdFred said:
I voted 200-300, but I base that on a basic single/twin piston engine.
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Thats what I charge. $250...

The thing is I never asked anyone about that price so I just wanted to see what people thought was fair.
 
What is a fair per day price to ferry a J-3 from NY to CA?:goofy:
 
Ben,

I just did a Piper Comance Lincoln,NE-Phoenix... $250 + airline ticket home...what a POS that thing was but thats another story.

What I charge
$250/day singles
$3-350/day twins
$4-500/day turbines

To hell with all the turds low balling you. People with sense will pay for experience.

Good Luck! Hope biz pick up for ya
 
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I voted $200 to 300. I think that's fair and I'd be willing to
pay that if had something ferried.

RT
 
I voted in the 2-3 range as well, but that is predicated upon all expenses being covered as well. The fee should be free and clear money.
 
It varies. I've gotten $150/day for a 172 up to $300/day for the right seat of a mid-size jet... But that's also the "no-extra-risk" rate. I've had opportunities to fly the Pacific CA-HI for $1,200 (one LONG day); or the full trip across the north Atlantic for $4,000 (for the trip, not per day). Not convinced the added risk is worth it, especially since I lack the knowledge to do it as safely as I'd like.
 
So you say your a Ferry Pilot. (not that there is anything wrong with that.). Okay, with Seinfeld now properly honored I think it would be by the requirements for the type. Even though it would be more work I wouldn't want to pay a premium to have somebody deliver a trainer that anybody could fly. Somehow a sliding scale seems appropriate.
 
Why would I pay $250/day if I could get it for free?
 
Sorry, but quite honestly, the cheaper the better. I have known too many "high hour" pilots that tend to skip things like weather briefings, pre-flights and even ignore the 8 hour rule (bottle to throttle). Unless I know the low baller is a drunk, drug user or hot-shot dare devil, I would take the cheaper, but properly licensed and insured ferry pilot.

But I have sympathy for you. In the veterinary business there is always a clinic down the road that will do a surgery cheaper. They may not use quality anesthesia or the best suture, and they may use the same surgical instruments on several surgeries without autoclaving, and they may not use any pain medication, and they may not even use a surgery monitor to let them know their patient has stopped breathing, but today, people want cheap. Our county council is funding low cost spays, neuters and vaccinations at the humane society. They are doing heartworm tests for $12 (I pay $17 for the test kit). They also bought a bus that goes around doing these services for free or cheap. Even many of my past "good" clients are opting for these government sponsored butcher shops rather than pay for quality. Many of them don't know the difference, but some do and they opt for cheap anyway.
 
JOhnH said:
Sorry, but quite honestly, the cheaper the better. I have known too many "high hour" pilots that tend to skip things like weather briefings, pre-flights and even ignore the 8 hour rule (bottle to throttle). Unless I know the low baller is a drunk, drug user or hot-shot dare devil, I would take the cheaper, but properly licensed and insured ferry pilot.

But I have sympathy for you. In the veterinary business there is always a clinic down the road that will do a surgery cheaper. They may not use quality anesthesia or the best suture, and they may use the same surgical instruments on several surgeries without autoclaving, and they may not use any pain medication, and they may not even use a surgery monitor to let them know their patient has stopped breathing, but today, people want cheap. Our county council is funding low cost spays, neuters and vaccinations at the humane society. They are doing heartworm tests for $12 (I pay $17 for the test kit). They also bought a bus that goes around doing these services for free or cheap. Even many of my past "good" clients are opting for these government sponsored butcher shops rather than pay for quality. Many of them don't know the difference, but some do and they opt for cheap anyway.
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<7500>
It stinks that you are fighting the county council. I commend their intent, but if they'd switch to catch and put-to-sleep after a week or two those who love and can afford their pets would go to vets; those who love and can barely afford their pets would go to vets willing to adjust rates for those in need; those who love but can't afford their pets would find homes for them; and the rest would go away. . . (written as someone with two dogs with health insurance)

It reminds me a bit of hearing how health club owners think it is unfair that they fight the local YMCA for members since the Y has some tax advantages they don't
</7500>
 
Good point if someone is 'high hour' why are they still ferrying airplanes? Type specific high end teaching pays three times a good ferry rate.
 
Worst thing I ever heard of for the local vets was a small parvo outbreak that occurred a couple decades ago in a small city near here. The city government declared a dog curfew; any dogs caught out would be euthanized (I imagine with a firearm) period. I can't remember how log it lasted, but the vets in the area had almost no work during the period.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Good point if someone is 'high hour' why are they still ferrying airplanes? Type specific high end teaching pays three times a good ferry rate.
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Because the airlines arent for everyone and while I am good at it, I have had my fill of instructing.
Ferry flying isnt my way to build time. Its somthing that I enjoy and do well.

High Hours (compared to some I am a high hour guy, compared to some I am still low), does not make you a complacent pilot. A flawed set of values and work ethic makes you a complacent pilot.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Good point if someone is 'high hour' why are they still ferrying airplanes? Type specific high end teaching pays three times a good ferry rate.
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Remember ferrying can involve all types, my best friend from high school does nothing but contract ferrying Bombardier jets across the pond. 12k/month not bad.

I don't know what you consider high hour as if there is a limit in the logbook where a guy should quit,

I do it to break the routine of my normal flying job. I like the variety of planes and places, always an adventure and it is a great way to keep your skills sharp.
 
I'd ferry the J-3, but certainly not for under $250/day at the bare minimum, preferably $300 or so plus expenses. That said, I'm not going to piddle around. I WOULD check the weather and get as far as possible as long as I had daylight. It would be lots of fun, it would be neat to see some of the country, but it's still a job, AND, I can do a lot better than that here giving discovery flights when my marketing's working. I made $75 for one hour of discovery flights in our J-3 on Saturday...
First off, a smart pilot would want to review the logs, etc... to make sure it's legal, and even then he should put some value on his risk jumping into an airplane he may not have a lot of history on. Insurance isn't cheap either. I just think that those guys jumping into them for free are hurting their own future in the long run.

Ryan
 
I wouldn't pay to ferry an aircraft. Then again, that's because I would want to do it myself. Long trips like that are adventures, and fun ones.

If I was going to bother having an aircraft ferried, I would want someone who was familiar with the aircraft type. I wouldn't care about total time so much as time in type. Let's say I wanted to have my Aztec ferried someplace. What would I prefer:

- 2000 hours total time, 100 multi, 25 Aztec
- 1000 hours total time, 650 multi, 600 Aztec

I'll take the latter (of course, in this case the latter happens to be me).

Ultimately, the cost of the pilot is a fraction of the total cost of the ferry job, so I wouldn't mind paying more money for a pilot who was better.

I'd be glad to pay $200-300/day plus an appropriate per diem for a good pilot who's familiar with the type and will get my airplane where it's going safely and in good condition. But reality? I'd just go do it myself.
 
deltafox said:
Why would I pay $250/day if I could get it for free?
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Sounds cruel, but unfortunately, this is the correct answer.

It's a matter of supply and demand. If the supply exceeds the demand greatly (which is the case here), it becomes very difficult for you to really make a living out of this. First, I'd try to figure out what people are willing to pay and how much more they're willing to pay to have you fly the plans compared to somebody else who will do it for $0.

The secret here is differentiation. Getting some type ratings, providing added services (person's familiarity with you, professionalism, etc.) are all good ways to differentiate yourself. Without differentiation, the price is $0.

Of course, you're already doing at least some differentiation through the familiarity and professionalism ideas I've mentioned, but if you want to get the price to go up, you'll need to do more of that....
 
RyanShort1 said:
I just think that those guys jumping into them for free are hurting their own future in the long run.
Ryan
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Nailed it.


Although the "free market" will do what it does in terms of supply and demand, this is the souring note of all this, in the end what little living that can be made of this is ruined. I fully remember what it was like to struggle to get the left over crumbs and try to build time...everybody has to start somewhere but that is not the way to do it... ultimately you cheapen the career for yourself and everyone around you....good way to get egg on your face IMO.
 
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Not really. If working for free gets you the experience to move up then it works out OK. The only place working free for experience fails is at the bottom ie running a fryer or non niche/non legacy carrier flying jobs.
taters said:
Nailed it.


Although the "free market" will do what it does in terms of supply and demand, this is the souring note of all this, in the end what little living that can be made of this is ruined. I fully remember what it was like to struggle to get the left over crumbs and try to build time...everybody has to start somewhere but that is not the way to do it... ultimately you cheapen the career for yourself and everyone around you....good way to get egg on your face IMO.
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ClimbnSink said:
Not really. If working for free gets you the experience to move up then it works out OK. The only place working free for experience fails is at the bottom ie running a fryer or non niche/non legacy carrier flying jobs.
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I disagree.
You will probably harm your ability to network as other professional pilots may refrain from helping you if they are aware of your scabish little habit. If the person that hires you gives you a more "permanent" opportunity it will be more difficult to get higher pay since they think you are so "cheap". And trust me , the whole "getting paid to fly' thing loses is magic very quickly, it is a job that requires a large investment of time and money. You should be happy to be fairly compensated.

I would be willing to bet, those who engage in this behavior are far less successful in their professional aviation endeavors.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Not really. If working for free gets you the experience to move up then it works out OK. The only place working free for experience fails is at the bottom ie running a fryer or non niche/non legacy carrier flying jobs.
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Sure, but it still works out to hurt the industry in the end. People need to realize that a skilled workman is worth of his hire. Those who cheapen their own investment by working for free, end up hurting those who have invested for the long term, and that cannot but hurt everyone in the end. If it's not profitable in some way to be a pilot, sooner or later no one you want to be flying will be doing it, or only the rich will. A LOT of instructors need to be taught how to be in business... rather than just subsisting.

Ryan
 
There is an old saying in the retail business profession that goes: "Any idiot can give it away."

We also have a very unusual business climate going on right now, even though the "experts" claim it ended a year ago. It is hard to find anyone who wants to part with their dollars. Myself, I think that a ferry pilot, considering the often times pieces of junk they must fly, should earn a minimum of four hundred dollars a day.

Things do not always work out the way we would like. I do not believe anyone can have iron clad pricing in todays market. It is pretty much a case by case atmosphere we are in now.

To sum up, grab all the work you can get, don't turn it down unless it's a safety issue.

It is much better to have a hundred dollars in your pocket than five hundred dollars on a price list.

John
 
RyanShort1 said:
Sure, but it still works out to hurt the industry in the end. People need to realize that a skilled workman is worth of his hire. Those who cheapen their own investment by working for free, end up hurting those who have invested for the long term, and that cannot but hurt everyone in the end. If it's not profitable in some way to be a pilot, sooner or later no one you want to be flying will be doing it, or only the rich will. A LOT of instructors need to be taught how to be in business... rather than just subsisting.

Ryan
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Exactly...

I think He says it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYMnAUGFuG0

:D
 
Flying is work. Work that many will do for free, oops scratch that, work that many will pay to do. Trying to enforce some code of conduct/halfazzed informal union will not change that. Specialize to the extent that you can name your price and the customer and insurance company will be happy. Or be merry competing with those who would, and can afford to, do it for less/free. Seems only hobby pilots are happy pilots.
 
John Baker said:
It is much better to have a hundred dollars in your pocket than five hundred dollars on a price list.
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Beg to differ to a point. It would be better to work another job, than to try and hang on or go in debt telling people you weren't worth your investment.
ClimbnSink said:
Seems only hobby pilots are happy pilots.
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Oh, and working, non-hobby pilots can be very happy, too! I love my job, and it's also easier to love because I can actually afford to stay in it right now!

Ryan
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Flying is work. Work that many will do for free, oops scratch that, work that many will pay to do. Trying to enforce some code of conduct/halfazzed informal union will not change that. Specialize to the extent that you can name your price and the customer and insurance company will be happy. Or be merry competing with those who would, and can afford to, do it for less/free. Seems only hobby pilots are happy pilots.
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The reason people do this is because they want the job and feel they cannot get it due to the lack of experience. Anybody with some self-esteem can still sell themselves even lacking experience. Ive seen this occur in Spades.. Its as if newer pilots are desperate to keep the fact that they are low time a secret. If they would just be honest and explain that they are seeking a new challenge and all the reasons that they are up to it and can do the job safely, they might wind up with the job and a paycheck to go with it. As said above, learn how to do business. free isnt buisness.
 
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You want to know who the unhappy pilots/instructors are? They are the guys who are:

1. Bored - or not working hard to stay on top of their game - really an attitude issue!
2. Working for $15/hr at some big flight school
3. Not well taught about business and bad at managing their time and money
4. Working for $15/hr at some small flight school
5. Not taking a look at their circumstances through the glasses of reality. There may be some guys trying to hang on for $800/month who should really go out and get another job on the side until their ship comes in.
6. Working for $15/hr at some flight school
7. Have bad personal skills / don't take care of their clients
8. Working for $15/hr at some big flight school and working for free on the side wondering why they can't get a good job

Ryan
 
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Many other professions have had unpaid internships as a way to build experience and there does not seem to be a great deal of backlash against those interns. Why is it different for pilots?
 
Because the barrier to entry for being a pro pilot is in reality quite low. Six months of school at about the cost of one years tuition at a private college.
jtheune said:
Many other professions have had unpaid internships as a way to build experience and there does not seem to be a great deal of backlash against those interns. Why is it different for pilots?
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RyanShort1 said:
Beg to differ to a point. It would be better to work another job, than to try and hang on or go in debt telling people you weren't worth your investment. Ryan
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I would agree with you wholeheartedly if todays economy was a normal one. That "other" job that you suggest should be worked, has a whole lot of competition to get it. There just are not all that many jobs out there right now. Even flipping hamburgers can be a hard job to find in some areas.

Is it better to work for $7.50 an hour flipping burgers or $12.50 an hour driving an airplane? I agree, if the other job pays more, well yea, go for it, of course.

John
 
ClimbnSink said:
Flying is work. Work that many will do for free, oops scratch that, work that many will pay to do.
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That's the reality of the problem right there. Unfortunately it continues right on up the food chain. It's not just low-time pilots who are trying to build time but people who have retired from other jobs or have other sources of income who just want to keep a hand in it and are willing to work for less. This problem is not exclusive to the aviation industry. I think it happens in all fields where people do for pleasure what other people are trying to do for a living.
 
A number of CFIs around here have been asked to ferry aircraft for various owners. I like the approach they take of the regular hourly rate plus expenses. For an 8-hour day, at $35-45/hr, that's $270-360/day. Definitely in the price range.

Of course the the owner goes along, the price goes up...
 
i instructed for 15/hr in college and was happy.
 
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