What if...?

Morgan3820

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Studying for IR and I wondered what if you fly to your destination, the weather guessers were wrong and both it and your filed alternate are below minimums. There is no other airport within 45 minutes. What do you do? Can you declare an emergency and land below minimums at the alternate? I know that this is an unlikely scenario but probably not unprecedented. :confused:
 
You do whatever it takes to get on the ground safely. Note that your filed alternate is strictly a planning/preflight exercise only -- once you take off, that designation is meaningless, and if you miss at your destination, you are free to go anywhere else you like in order to land safely without regard to your flied alternate (and that includes in a lost comm situation). However, if you really have lost all possible legal alternatives, you should declare an emergency before you do something outside the regulations.
 
If your destination is below minimums at your arrival you can go anywhere, doesn't have to be what you filed for an alternate. If you don't have enough fuel to get someplace that's above minimums then use your pilot in command authority.
 
You do whatever it takes to get on the ground safely. Note that your filed alternate is strictly a planning/preflight exercise only -- once you take off, that designation is meaningless, and if you miss at your destination, you are free to go anywhere else you like in order to land safely without regard to your flied alternate (and that includes in a lost comm situation). However, if you really have lost all possible legal alternatives, you should declare an emergency before you do something outside the regulations.

I thought that this would be the case, but I did not see it specified anywhere.
 
A critical consideration in regards to missed approaches and alternate destinations or deviations in IMC is communication with ATC. As long as you are able to communicate, you may request deviations and destination/alternate changes as you see fit, and will also get suggested destinations with better weather. But if you lose radio contact, you must follow the lost comms procedures, which include proceeding to your most recent alternate, if you miss the approach at the primary destination and can't find VFR conditions. If you decide to deviate from that despite no radio contact with ATC, you obviously risk collision with other aircraft, although near a larger airport primary radar might pick up your target if your transponder is inop.
Needless to say major havoc will ensue in such a "loose nordo" case, so like many other things in life, prevention is the cure, which includes (maybe number one in cost effectiveness) a backup handheld radio with the proper antenna hookup and headset to be useful in flight.
 
WWCLD What would Charles Lindberg do:D
 
Although the alternate may be filed in the flightplan, a route is not specified. I would not necessarily proceed to the alternate in a NORDO situation, particularly if the weather was expected to be deteriorating. It is my understanding that the alternate airport is not passed on to the ATC computer with a domestic IFR flightplan, so ATC does not have an expectation of where you will be going to after the destination.

Assuming I knew that conditions had or were deteriorating at my destination, and if there were known VFR conditions, but not directly along my route, I would seriously consider deviating to the VFR conditions, and if I did, I would assert my emergency authority as PIC.
 
Studying for IR and I wondered what if you fly to your destination, the weather guessers were wrong and both it and your filed alternate are below minimums. There is no other airport within 45 minutes. What do you do? Can you declare an emergency and land below minimums at the alternate? I know that this is an unlikely scenario but probably not unprecedented. :confused:

If I saw conditions deteriorating at both my destination and reasonable alternates, including the ones I filed, I would not feel boxed in to continue on to my destination. Sometimes the best alternate is VFR and passed up even though it is not directly along your route. There was one case where a pilot continued on, knowing that the destination and airports within reach as an alternate were deteriorating. He had tens of airports 50 miles to the north of his route along much of the distance, all of which were VFR. He chose to motor on and after several attempts at a landing at both the original destination and alternate, he ran out of gas and died in the subsequent forced landing. He boxed himself in. Make a resolution to not box yourself in. They say the day of the funeral is always sunny. There is no place you must continue on to.
 
Talk to ATC ,they can generally get you a field above minimums,with a precision approach. With fore flight I usually have an idea of conditions long before I get to the airport.
 
Another point that's not emphasized enough in training is that you must constantly keep your destination and alternate "viable" while enroute. This means that you should periodically check both the primary and alternate observed and forecast weather, and revise your plans accordingly. So if the primary which was forecast to be 400 overcast with 2 miles vis is trending towards 200 and 1/2 (assuming ILS/LPV to 200 and 1/2 available) at your arrival time, you might wisely decide to divert now, either to the original alternate or another one. If the primary seems iffy but you decide to go for it anyway, you should verify that the alternate remains open (at least the pre-flight legal 800/600 and 2) at your arrival time. If the alternate is trending ever lower, consider replacing it and let ATC know your intentions in case of lost comms.
Bottom line: you need to constantly think ahead, periodically get weather updates, and keep all your options viable, evaluating and modifying your plans as necessary.
Don't wait until you are out of fuel and options -- always plan to land with at least an hour's reserve, and modify your plan as needed to ensure that result.
 
That's why I suggest practicing a few landings with the hood on. Fly the localizer and glideslope to the ground. Do it with the hood up at first, then work out taking it to the runway centerline with your hood on.
Like practicing a forced landing. Which it kinda is.
 
That's why I suggest practicing a few landings with the hood on. Fly the localizer and glideslope to the ground. Do it with the hood up at first, then work out taking it to the runway centerline with your hood on.
Like practicing a forced landing. Which it kinda is.

Have you ever tried following the LPV blindly to touchdown? The reason I ask is that I read somewhere that the ILS glidepath has a natural curvature (due to interaction with the ground) that begins around the threshold, resulting in a slight "flare" effect, which would make blind impact a bit softer (assuming you don't flare at say 50 feet and reduce descent rate to 200 fpm, as in glassy water seaplane landing). OTOH, I would assume that LPV glidepath is straight as an arrow, with no curvature whatsoever (of course this could be fixed by software but that's another issue). So I wonder if you have tried the LPV to touchdown, and seen anything relating to that (mythical?) curvature or lack thereof.
 
Another point that's not emphasized enough in training is that you must constantly keep your destination and alternate "viable" while enroute.
This.

The real answer to the original question is, "Since you have been monitoring the weather during the flight, you know it is deteriorating at you destination and alternate and and made other 'what if' diversion plans during those long boring en route stretches."

Morgan3820 said:
I thought that this would be the case, but I did not see it specified anywhere.
Did you see a requirement to go to your original alternate anywhere? Or just a requirement to have one in your filed flight plan unless certain conditions exist?
 
A critical consideration in regards to missed approaches and alternate destinations or deviations in IMC is communication with ATC. As long as you are able to communicate, you may request deviations and destination/alternate changes as you see fit, and will also get suggested destinations with better weather. But if you lose radio contact, you must follow the lost comms procedures, which include proceeding to your most recent alternate, if you miss the approach at the primary destination and can't find VFR conditions. If you decide to deviate from that despite no radio contact with ATC, you obviously risk collision with other aircraft, although near a larger airport primary radar might pick up your target if your transponder is inop.
Needless to say major havoc will ensue in such a "loose nordo" case, so like many other things in life, prevention is the cure, which includes (maybe number one in cost effectiveness) a backup handheld radio with the proper antenna hookup and headset to be useful in flight.

Bonus points for whomever tells us how many attempts at a missed approach you get in NORDO IMC
 
The alternate is to give you some assurance as to minimum fuel requirements. I don't tend to like to cut it that close. I carry a lot of fuel. For an example of why the alternate rule is silly, lets look at my typical flight where I depart CJR and fly to NC26.

Now NC26 doesn't have an approach, so I have to file an alternate. SVH is 5 miles away and has an ILS so if it has 600-2 I'm golden and I don't need hardly any additional fuel.
Now if I was flying to SVH rather than NC26 and the weather forecast requires an alternate, I can't use NC26, and in fact the nearest airport that could be considered an alternate is about 25 miles away. Still, I'm a bit conservative. I always plan enough fuel to get to CLT at that end (and IAD at the other end). Lots of surface area, lots of lights, etc....

I've watched the autopilot fly the GS as close to the ground as I could stand it (VFR) and didn't note any real issue.
 
It's also important, when selecting an alternate, to try to pick one that is not likely to be impacted by the same weather system. For instance, in the bay area, we get a marine layer when a few miles inland and over some hills its severe clear. This is more difficult in wide-open spaces...
 
It's also important, when selecting an alternate, to try to pick one that is not likely to be impacted by the same weather system. For instance, in the bay area, we get a marine layer when a few miles inland and over some hills its severe clear. This is more difficult in wide-open spaces...

Agreed. I pretty much see the alternate planning requirement as just that - a rule to get pilots thinking by giving a minimal baseline. Unless it's draconian it's not going to be adequate for all situations. Kind of a lot like most of the Part 61 currency regs.
 
However, if you really have lost all possible legal alternatives, you should declare an emergency before you do something outside the regulations.

Note that exercising 91.3 authority does not require declaring an emergency. If you're in contact with ATC, a heads-up is appreciated but by no means required.
 
Note that exercising 91.3 authority does not require declaring an emergency. If you're in contact with ATC, a heads-up is appreciated but by no means required.
It's more than "appreciated" -- it opens up a whole additional chapter of things ATC can do to help you. I realize that thanks to decades of misinformation and old wives' tales, pilots have an unjustified disinclination to declare an emergency. However, playing "I've got a secret" with ATC hobbles them and reduces the chances of the event ending well for you.
 
Wait, what!!?? If YOU think you have an emergency, declare it! It hurts no one and gets you as much or as little help as you think you need.
 
If you are sure its an emergency go ahead and declare but...
The thing is, its usually easier to let ATC declare an emergency "on you". Actually declaring an emergency just makes things worse.'
How? I've been doing this a long time, and have declared my share of emergencies, and I can't think of a single way which declaring an emergency worsens your situation. OTOH, I haven't enough fingers and toes to count all the ways it helps you, and there are examples galore of cases where the failure of a pilot to declare an emergency in a timely manner eventually proved fatal.
 
Another point that's not emphasized enough in training is that you must constantly keep your destination and alternate "viable" while enroute.

Total agreement with this point and the subsequent advice.

While most pilots consider alternate planning to be only a pre-flight exercise, 14 CFR 91.167 "Fuel requirements for flight in IFR conditions" applies at all times you are operating in IFR conditions (not just pre-flight planning). As you reconsider and perhaps change your destination and/or alternate while enroute, you also need to continue to meet the IFR fuel requirements. If you start bumping against those requirements, you need to start thinking about declaring Minimum Fuel or a Fuel Emergency (depending on the circumstances).
 
My DPE posed this same question to me on the oral. Additional caveat - you have no more fuel left.

The answer she expected was: fly the ILS as accurately as you can until you hit something. Hopefully it's the runway.
 
If you are sure its an emergency go ahead and declare but...
The thing is, its usually easier to let ATC declare an emergency "on you". Actually declaring an emergency just makes things worse. Pilot has enough problems without having to decide whether to declare or not. Like trying to get the engine to run right again, and holding altitude with reduced power, dealing with backfires and unknown engine sounds. Pilot just wants someone to talk to and calm down so he can make some decisions about what to do with the airplane. And talking to ATC helps because he can tell them where he is as he's going down and they can send rescue if he does go down). Let the ATC guy decide whether to declare or not. Pilot is worried enough about crashing while landing off field without having to decide whether to declare and "emergency" or not.

Oh, and if they help you out, send them a thank you letter!
Rehearse declaring and you can free up your brain cells. It's amazing we omit that step in our E procedures training.
 
While most pilots consider alternate planning to be only a pre-flight exercise, 14 CFR 91.167 "Fuel requirements for flight in IFR conditions" applies at all times you are operating in IFR conditions (not just pre-flight planning). As you reconsider and perhaps change your destination and/or alternate while enroute, you also need to continue to meet the IFR fuel requirements. If you start bumping against those requirements, you need to start thinking about declaring Minimum Fuel or a Fuel Emergency (depending on the circumstances).
I don't agree this is correct. While it is always important to continuously evaluate your fuel and your options, 91.167 specifically states (emphasis is mine):

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft in IFR conditions unless it carries enough fuel (considering weather reports and forecasts and weather conditions) to--
(1) Complete the flight to the first airport of intended landing;
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, fly from that airport to the alternate airport; and
(3) Fly after that for 45 minutes at normal cruising speed or, for helicopters, fly after that for 30 minutes at normal cruising speed.

If your understanding of the regulation was true, then if you divert to your alternate making it your destination and it required another alternate, many would be in violation of the fuel requirements. Also, you do a proper plan and carry sufficient fuel as required by 91.167, but the head winds encountered enroute are much stronger than forecast, you could easily eat into your reserves and no longer meet the planning requirement. So you land with 30 minutes fuel remaining at your alternate, you have not violated any regulation.
 
I don't agree this is correct. While it is always important to continuously evaluate your fuel and your options, 91.167 specifically states (emphasis is mine):



If your understanding of the regulation was true, then if you divert to your alternate making it your destination and it required another alternate, many would be in violation of the fuel requirements. Also, you do a proper plan and carry sufficient fuel as required by 91.167, but the head winds encountered enroute are much stronger than forecast, you could easily eat into your reserves and no longer meet the planning requirement. So you land with 30 minutes fuel remaining at your alternate, you have not violated any regulation.

I think this may be the poster-child example of why being legal isn't necessarily being safe. I agree that the regulations (by reasonable interpretation) only require the (very minimal) reserves and alternate designation before takeoff. But clearly, esp. if your plan allows for nothing beyond the legal minimums, those reserves (fuel and ceilings/vis) may come down as soon as you push the throttle, and leave you high and dry (literally).
So the trick is to ignore the government legalese and consider what's good for you, and make sure to always carry at least an hour's fuel reserve on landing, and maintain that projected reserve (and viable alternate(s)) throughout the flight. The landing reserve rule should be a hard limit, given any foreseeable event, at the end of the flight, including any diversions.
 
If you are sure its an emergency go ahead and declare but...
The thing is, its usually easier to let ATC declare an emergency "on you". Actually declaring an emergency just makes things worse. Pilot has enough problems without having to decide whether to declare or not. Like trying to get the engine to run right again, and holding altitude with reduced power, dealing with backfires and unknown engine sounds. Pilot just wants someone to talk to and calm down so he can make some decisions about what to do with the airplane. And talking to ATC helps because he can tell them where he is as he's going down and they can send rescue if he does go down). Let the ATC guy decide whether to declare or not. Pilot is worried enough about crashing while landing off field without having to decide whether to declare and "emergency" or not.

Oh, and if they help you out, send them a thank you letter!

Please expand on this. In my experience, saying the E word has only good results.

Bob Gardner
 
If your understanding of the regulation was true, then if you divert to your alternate making it your destination and it required another alternate, many would be in violation of the fuel requirements. Also, you do a proper plan and carry sufficient fuel as required by 91.167, but the head winds encountered enroute are much stronger than forecast, you could easily eat into your reserves and no longer meet the planning requirement. So you land with 30 minutes fuel remaining at your alternate, you have not violated any regulation.

Perhaps I was cavalier in my use of the term destination. I guess it depends on the interpretation of destination vis a vis the first airport of intended landing. I have not yet found any published interpretations for those particular phrases relative to each other. I acknowledge up front that what follows is my interpretation, and would welcome references to any other published interpretations.

In my mind, there are two destinations described in the IFR flight fuel requirements: the first airport of intended landing and the alternate. Each destination has its own fuel requirement, and the pilot may elect to change one or both of these destinations while in flight.

In your first scenario, I would argue that when you divert to your alternate, you have not changed your first airport of intended landing. You are simply proceeding to your alternate early. Presumably you would land there with even more fuel than you would have if you attempted an approach at your first airport of intended landing. As long as you land there with at least 45 minutes of fuel, you have met the requirement.

In your second scenario, the FAA agrees with you that if you eat into your reserves, you have not violated any regulation. See INFO 08004, which includes the following statement:

The act of using a portion of the reserve fuel assigned to a flight is not, in its self a cause to declare a minimum fuel state with the controlling agency. Regulations require reserve fuel to enable aircraft to maneuver, due to unforeseen circumstances. Many aircraft safely arrive at their destination having used a portion of the fuel designated as reserve.

In my earlier response, I was talking about keeping the fuel requirements in mind as you reconsider and perhaps change your plan.

Consider a scenario where you shoot an approach to your first airport of intended landing, go missed and then elect to attempt an approach to a nearby airport that's not your alternate (because your alternate is 50 miles away). Can you do this? Of course. It doesn't have to be in your preflight planning, per se. But you are now, in effect, designating either a new first airport of intended landing or a new alternate. If you are designating a new first airport of intended landing, you must have enough fuel to complete the flight there with enough fuel to continue to your alternate with 45 minutes of reserve. If you are making it your new alternate, then the forecast and actual weather at that airport must meet the alternate airport weather minimums, and you should land there with at least 45 minutes of reserve (barring unforeseen circumstances).

Consider another scenario. After a long VFR cross-county, your destination airport gets covered over with a marine layer of low overcast clouds. It's an easy instrument approach to your home airport so you ask for a pop-up IFR clearance. Can you do this without filing a flight plan? Yes. ATC has the authority to give you a pop-up clearance without a pre-filed flight plan. But you are still subject to the fuel requirements, so you can only ask for that IFR clearance if you have enough fuel to complete the flight to that destination (now the first airport of intended landing) with enough fuel to proceed to an alternate and land with a 45 minute reserve. This implies that before asking for that clearance, you need to consider what your alternate airport is going to be and whether you have enough fuel to shoot that first approach legally.
 
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If I can toss in my two cents... and to the OP I've been the controller who has dealt with a similar situation and my answer is at the bottom.

You the pilot know your plane and abilities better than we do. Withholding information from us is often even worse. I'm not the air police fellas. Waiting for a controller (who may not know a magneto from a flap) to declare for you wont get you much and will often put you in a bad spot in the air when its life or death. My own three real world scenarios follow.

1) IFR Grumman tells me his engine is sounding funny (yeah sounds bad to me too over the mic). OK no big deal, but direct to his destination happens to put him much closer to a nice long runway. It also puts him in the departure path and altitude of the jets from the main airport. Solution? Hey tower stop those guys below the Grumman, just in case. Result? 2 minutes later he lost oil pressure and landed on the numbers. Engine gave up over the fence.

2) Airplane wants to return to his departure point. Center only knows the plane has reduced power. I confirm its mechanical and not electrical and I'm told I'm not making the RPMs it normally does. I suggest and get concurrence from the pilot who doesn't know the area as well to land at an airport with an ILS 15 miles closer as a) we're about 500 OVC everywhere and b) lowered chance for a missed approach and climbout.

My entire mindset is find an approach the pilot can prevent going missed from. Then the plane's ability changes to needs to glide to stay aloft to 700 fpm descent in the span of two minutes. Whatever happened all I ever knew was the plane isn't making its normal RPM's. Landed in a field, no damage.

If you absolutely run out of options, I've had an aircraft only able one instrument approach that was below mins in my airspace with dwindling fuel. Mimick an ILS with RADAR, something like a jury rigged ILS.
 
If you absolutely run out of options, I've had an aircraft only able one instrument approach that was below mins in my airspace with dwindling fuel. Mimick an ILS with RADAR, something like a jury rigged ILS.

That's probably something to remember also- a current and proficient IR pilot flying an ILS or LPV approach to 100-1/4 is a lot lower pucker factor than flying a non-precision approach to zero/zero or having an IR "trainee" flying VFR attempt it. Don't recreate the N223CD crash because you were under-equipped/prepared for the approach.
 
Studying for IR and I wondered what if you fly to your destination, the weather guessers were wrong and both it and your filed alternate are below minimums. There is no other airport within 45 minutes. What do you do? Can you declare an emergency and land below minimums at the alternate? I know that this is an unlikely scenario but probably not unprecedented. :confused:

The real answer is: Don't ever get into this situation.

1) Never carry only 45 minutes reserve fuel. When the weather is low, take as much fuel as you can within the scope of your weight limits. In fact, you should try to have enough fuel to reach VFR weather, or at least weather that's a guaranteed no-miss-approach.

2) Know where that weather is, at least the general direction of it and where it's trending. When you miss, start working your way in that direction. Then, if you miss at the destination and the alternate, or if you need to divert earlier, you know right away which way to turn and you won't spend valuable time or fuel evaluating your options while potentially flying farther from the better weather.

Leave the mythical flight where you take off with minimum legal fuel to a destination below minimums with an alternate at minimums in the book where it belongs. In reality, it's rare that you'll be presented with a scenario anything like that, and in the case you are, it's probably best to make adjustments (add a fuel stop or leave pax behind and carry more fuel) to stay safe, or simply don't take the flight.
 
The real answer is: Don't ever get into this situation.

1) Never carry only 45 minutes reserve fuel. When the weather is low, take as much fuel as you can within the scope of your weight limits. In fact, you should try to have enough fuel to reach VFR weather, or at least weather that's a guaranteed no-miss-approach.

2) Know where that weather is, at least the general direction of it and where it's trending. When you miss, start working your way in that direction. Then, if you miss at the destination and the alternate, or if you need to divert earlier, you know right away which way to turn and you won't spend valuable time or fuel evaluating your options while potentially flying farther from the better weather.

Leave the mythical flight where you take off with minimum legal fuel to a destination below minimums with an alternate at minimums in the book where it belongs. In reality, it's rare that you'll be presented with a scenario anything like that, and in the case you are, it's probably best to make adjustments (add a fuel stop or leave pax behind and carry more fuel) to stay safe, or simply don't take the flight.
One of our co owners just lives with the hassle of 2-hr legs. Painful IMO, considering his WB load.
 
One of our co owners just lives with the hassle of 2-hr legs. Painful IMO, considering his WB load.

2-hr legs in a 172? Wow. Might be faster to drive! :eek:

I'm a big fan of planes with lots of endurance. I was once glad I topped off the last 45 minutes in the tanks of a plane with 7+ hour endurance on a 2-hour flight because of the weather.

It helps you save $$$ on fuel, too. The Mooney has 7+ hours as well, weather/load permitting I will run it down to the last 2 hours and then go somewhere with cheap fuel. Buying 70+ gallons and saving $1/gal or more makes a difference!
 
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