what happens

You can say you did it per the MM, even if you didn't. You can do whatever you want and it probably won't come back to haunt ya unless something bad happens and the powers that be determine that you should have used the manual instead of winging it. Doing stuff per the manual is the only way to cya.
 
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Tom-D said:
When you complied with the ADs on these carbs did you do it by the AD instructions or the MM ?
Click to expand...
Well lookie here Tom, AD 72-06-05 R2, which happens to apply to these carburators, states:
"(1) Inspect the throttle arm to verify that it is bottomed against the shoulder on the throttle stop and
positioned so that full throttle travel is obtained, and if not, loosen clamping screw and reposition arm
and/or re-rig control system in accordance with airplane manufacturers' maintenance instructions to
obtain these conditions."

Gee, do you think the airplane manufacturers' maintenance instructions would be anywhere other than a MM?
 
GlennAB1 said:
If the AD refers to the MM, yes, but you obviously didn't/wouldn't.

ADs almost always refer to Service Bulletins which often refer to manuals.
Click to expand...
you didn't read the ADs on the Carbs in question did ya?

Plus many ADs are the instructions to complete the repair/alterations.

It is very easy to find approved data to do the repair / alteration other than the manufacturer's maintenance manual.
STCs are a prime example. They supersede the manufacturer's manuals. Field approvals are another. Block #8 of a 337 on file in the aircraft's history records is an other.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Well lookie here Tom, AD 72-06-05 R2, which happens to apply to these carburators, states:
"(1) Inspect the throttle arm to verify that it is bottomed against the shoulder on the throttle stop and
positioned so that full throttle travel is obtained, and if not, loosen clamping screw and reposition arm
and/or re-rig control system in accordance with airplane manufacturers' maintenance instructions to
obtain these conditions."

Gee, do you think the airplane manufacturers' maintenance instructions would be anywhere other than a MM?
Click to expand...
cherry picking the ADs ? And Or,,, or what ?
 
GlennAB1 said:
You can say you did it per the MM, even if you didn't. You can do whatever you want and it probably won't come back to haunt ya unless something bad happens and the powers that be determine that you should have used the manual instead of winging it. Doing stuff per the manual is the only way to cya.
Click to expand...
OK I guess you've never seen a STC.instructions.
Very easy to get proper reference for the return to service entry.
 
GlennAB1 said:
No need to, already disproved your claim, below:
Click to expand...
give it up, the m/m isn't the only legal reference to return to service.

In your contention changing a accelerator pump would have to be signed off as a overhaul.

in reality it would be R&Red accelerator pump as required, and signed off as 43.9 requires. (a discerption, as per 1. (a) ) you'd only be responsible for what you did. No reference to the manual is required.
 
Tom-D said:
give it up,...
Click to expand...
I'm sure you want that, so I don't uncover more info to disprove you, like:
SB-21
2. Reasons :
For information purposes; Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors, LLC
(MSA), formerly known as Volarè Carburetors, LLC located in Gibsonville,
N.C., produces the above-referenced carburetors under a direct-ship authority
for Aero in accordance using historic, proprietary Marvel-Schebler
design data. Because MSA is the direct source of these carburetors, MSA’s
maintenance manuals, service bulletins and other maintenance data are the
correct and appropriate data to reference when servicing these carburetors as
that data is for all other carburetors produced by MSA. Carburetors produced by
MSA under Aero Accessories, Inc’s (Aero) FAA-PMA authorization include
Marvel-Schebler
® models: MA-3A™, MA-3PA™, MA-3SPA™, MA-4SPA™,
MA-4-5™, MA-4-5AA™, MA-6AA™, and HA-6™.
3. Compliance :
Use appropriate service information when servicing MSA carburators.
 
The fact that the manufacturer had to release a service bulletin to tell service providers to use manufacturers manuals when servicing their carburetors, and the fact that there is at least one other SB pertaining to improper repairs being found, screams that there is/was a huge problem that Tom is proud to be a part of.
 
GlennAB1 said:
The fact that the manufacturer had to release a service bulletin to tell service providers to use manufacturers manuals when servicing their carburetors, and the fact that there is at least one other SB pertaining to improper repairs being found, screams that there is/was a huge problem that Tom is proud to be a part of.
Click to expand...
You are stuck on performance rules when the issue is FAR 43.9, there is absolutely no requirement to enter how you did the maintenance. it simply requires a description of what you did.
43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.

There is nothing there that requires any one to say which manual they used.
Until you can understand that, your argument is lost.

The FAR is written that way because in many cases there is no manual or acceptable data to quote. This is the reason the AC 43,13 became acceptable data for repairs of antique aircraft.
And Yes I am proud that I understand the difference between 43.9 and the 43.13. And use the proper verbiage in my return to service entries.
 
GlennAB1 said:
The Float Valve and Seat Test has some pretty exact requirements, 0.4 psi, no +- tolerance, that will require a regulator and certified gauge, plus all the tooling required and recommended, most mechanics are's going to mess with it.
Click to expand...

what reg requires a non repair station to have calibrated gauges? sincerely, not arguing, I can't find it, I can only find references in 145
 
jaybee said:
what reg requires a non repair station to have calibrated gauges? sincerely, not arguing, I can't find it, I can only find references in 145
Click to expand...
43.13 (a). When the FAA asks you how you know that gauge is accurate (because the test requires precisely 0.4 psi) what are ya going to say?
 
jaybee said:
what reg requires a non repair station to have calibrated gauges? sincerely, not arguing, I can't find it, I can only find references in 145
Click to expand...
There is none.
This is why we in the field do not sign off any carb maintenance as overhauls, we can not meet the requirements of the overhaul manual.
We do repairs, and sign them off IAW 43.9
when you remove and replace an accelerator pump for example, you sign it off as " removed and replaced the accelerator pump, and found engine to preform as required, returned to service as safe to fly."
 
GlennAB1 said:
43.13 (a). When the FAA asks you how you know that gauge is accurate (because the test requires precisely 0.4 psi) what are ya going to say?
Click to expand...
or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator

doesn't mean a thing to you, does it?
 
jaybee said:
what reg requires a non repair station to have calibrated gauges? sincerely, not arguing, I can't find it, I can only find references in 145
Click to expand...
As owner/operators are primarily responsible for maintaining the aircraft in an airworthy condition, you may want to review your mechanics intentions for your aircraft, and decide if his "A&P general shop practices/acceptable to the Administrator, winging it, we dont need no f'n manuals attitude", are adequate enough for a given task, for you and your family, or if it might be a better decision to seek a 145 repair station.
 
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GlennAB1 said:
The Float Valve and Seat Test has some pretty exact requirements, 0.4 psi, no +- tolerance, that will require a regulator and certified gauge, plus all the tooling required and recommended, most mechanics are's going to mess with it.
Click to expand...
lol, there is nothing special about that.

I'm not a professional mechanic but I could walk into my garage right now and show you my calibrated hand pump designed for that exact test which is capable of reading 0.4 psi.

You sure the hell don't try to hook a carb up to your shop air supply with a regulator. Just because you're not sure how a test should be done doesn't mean that another individual wouldn't.

That's a pretty standard thing to check on a carb.
 
Last edited:
jesse said:
lol, there is nothing special about that.

I'm not a professional mechanic but I could walk into my garage right now and show you my calibrated hand pump designed for that exact test which is capable of reading 0.4 psi.

You sure the hell don't try to hook a carb up to your shop air supply with a regulator. Just because you're not sure how a test should be done doesn't mean that another individual wouldn't.

That's a pretty standard thing to check on a carb.
Click to expand...
Then Tom shouldn't have any problem following the manual.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Then Tom shouldn't have any problem following the manual.
Click to expand...
Where did you get the idea that I have a problem with that?
You on the other hand have a problem understanding what is required to be included in a return to service entries.

So,,, show me where Acceptable data is required. and how it is applied to FAR 43.9
 
JAWS said:
Minor repairs must be performed following acceptable data. The article below is worth reading.

http://www.aviationpros.com/article/12008268/faa-feedback-approved-data-for-aircraft-maintenance
Click to expand...
Note who wrote that article? " Bill O'Brian" He has been gone quite a few years. He was the lead mechanic for the FAA, for many years, he was the one who resisted the influx of the ICA's, and the one who gathered the info, and wrote the AC 43,13 both A & B.
Brian 23 and I attended two of his seminars at the History of Flight Museum at BFI. he was a great guy.

Performance rules are automatically assumed when an authorized person makes any entry required by 43.9. and thus, no statement is required for "HOW" the work was accomplished.. If it were required it would state that in 43.9.
 
Tom-D said:
You on the other hand have a problem understanding what is required to be included in a return to service entries.
Click to expand...
Wrong! It's not about the return to service entry. It's never been about the records, except when you've twisted it into that.

It's always been about Performance rules.

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator

What's "Acceptable"?

The FAA definition of Acceptable Data is:
"Acceptable Data: methods, techniques, and practices used
in the absence of current manufacturer’s maintenance
instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness"
Found here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...craft/amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_Ch12.pdf

What does "used in the absence of current manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness" mean?
It means: If there are manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, you don't use "methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator".

Also note, the Preface to that handbook "The Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook—General" (FAA-8083-30) states:
"The handbook is designed to aid students enrolled in a formal course of instruction preparing for FAA certification
as a maintenance technician, as well as for current technicians who wish to improve their knowledge.
Found here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_FrontPages.pdf

So, from that, we've determined: If there are manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, the FAA requires us to use them.

Alright, we know the carburetors of interest in this thread have manufacturer's maintenance instructions, It's titled "Service Manual" and contains the words "Overhaul" in it, doesn't change the fact that it is "manufacturer's maintenance instructions".

The following service bulletin even requires the use of the manufacturer's maintenance data when servicing their carburetors.

SB-21
2. Reasons :
For information purposes; Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors, LLC
(MSA), formerly known as Volarè Carburetors, LLC located in Gibsonville,
N.C., produces the above-referenced carburetors under a direct-ship authority
for Aero in accordance using historic, proprietary Marvel-Schebler
design data. Because MSA is the direct source of these carburetors, MSA’s
maintenance manuals, service bulletins and other maintenance data are the
correct and appropriate data to reference when servicing these carburetors as
that data is for all other carburetors produced by MSA. Carburetors produced by
MSA under Aero Accessories, Inc’s (Aero) FAA-PMA authorization include
Marvel-Schebler
® models: MA-3A™, MA-3PA™, MA-3SPA™, MA-4SPA™,
MA-4-5™, MA-4-5AA™, MA-6AA™, and HA-6™.
3. Compliance :
Use appropriate service information when servicing MSA carburators.
 
Tom-D said:
Describe " proper overhaul" the only moving part that wears is the throttle plate and the bushings it rides in.
Click to expand...
I ran accross one that had excessive wobble in the mixture control shaft as well.
 
GlennAB1 said:
You think it's legal to pick and choose what you want to accomplish or not in a component overhaul procedure just because you don't call it an overhaul, ignoring the note on page 5 "Failure to follow these instructions may result in adverse carburator performance and engine operation". I bet the FAA would disagree with you.
Click to expand...
Thing is this: you can remove and replace everything except the casting, then you can totally refurbish the casting to factory new specs. Put it all together, and set it up as per the MS mx instructions. And say that you IRAN it, not overhauled it.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Wrong! It's not about the return to service entry. It's never been about the records, except when you've twisted it into that.

It's always been about Performance rules.

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator

What's "Acceptable"?

The FAA definition of Acceptable Data is:
"Acceptable Data: methods, techniques, and practices used
in the absence of current manufacturer’s maintenance
instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness"
Found here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...craft/amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_Ch12.pdf

What does "used in the absence of current manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness" mean?
It means: If there are manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, you don't use "methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator".

Also note, the Preface to that handbook "The Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook—General" (FAA-8083-30) states:
"The handbook is designed to aid students enrolled in a formal course of instruction preparing for FAA certification
as a maintenance technician, as well as for current technicians who wish to improve their knowledge.
Found here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_FrontPages.pdf

So, from that, we've determined: If there are manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, the FAA requires us to use them.

Alright, we know the carburetors of interest in this thread have manufacturer's maintenance instructions, It's titled "Service Manual" and contains the words "Overhaul" in it, doesn't change the fact that it is "manufacturer's maintenance instructions".

The following service bulletin even requires the use of the manufacturer's maintenance data when servicing their carburetors.

SB-21
2. Reasons :
For information purposes; Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors, LLC
(MSA), formerly known as Volarè Carburetors, LLC located in Gibsonville,
N.C., produces the above-referenced carburetors under a direct-ship authority
for Aero in accordance using historic, proprietary Marvel-Schebler
design data. Because MSA is the direct source of these carburetors, MSA’s
maintenance manuals, service bulletins and other maintenance data are the
correct and appropriate data to reference when servicing these carburetors as
that data is for all other carburetors produced by MSA. Carburetors produced by
MSA under Aero Accessories, Inc’s (Aero) FAA-PMA authorization include
Marvel-Schebler
® models: MA-3A™, MA-3PA™, MA-3SPA™, MA-4SPA™,
MA-4-5™, MA-4-5AA™, MA-6AA™, and HA-6™.
3. Compliance :
Use appropriate service information when servicing MSA carburators.
Click to expand...
You just proved that your statement that the MM was the proper method of repair.

As I've said over and over there are many approved methods.
 
bluerooster said:
Thing is this: you can remove and replace everything except the casting, then you can totally refurbish the casting to factory new specs. Put it all together, and set it up as per the MS mx instructions. And say that you IRAN it, not overhauled it.
Click to expand...
This is true, and there is no requirement to state how you repaired it.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Wrong! It's not about the return to service entry. It's never been about the records, except when you've twisted it into that.

It's always been about Performance rules.

43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator

What's "Acceptable"?

The FAA definition of Acceptable Data is:
"Acceptable Data: methods, techniques, and practices used
in the absence of current manufacturer’s maintenance
instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness"
Found here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...craft/amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_Ch12.pdf

What does "used in the absence of current manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness" mean?
It means: If there are manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, you don't use "methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator".

Also note, the Preface to that handbook "The Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook—General" (FAA-8083-30) states:
"The handbook is designed to aid students enrolled in a formal course of instruction preparing for FAA certification
as a maintenance technician, as well as for current technicians who wish to improve their knowledge.
Found here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...amt_handbook/media/FAA-8083-30_FrontPages.pdf

So, from that, we've determined: If there are manufacturer's maintenance instructions or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, the FAA requires us to use them.

Alright, we know the carburetors of interest in this thread have manufacturer's maintenance instructions, It's titled "Service Manual" and contains the words "Overhaul" in it, doesn't change the fact that it is "manufacturer's maintenance instructions".

The following service bulletin even requires the use of the manufacturer's maintenance data when servicing their carburetors.

SB-21
2. Reasons :
For information purposes; Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors, LLC
(MSA), formerly known as Volarè Carburetors, LLC located in Gibsonville,
N.C., produces the above-referenced carburetors under a direct-ship authority
for Aero in accordance using historic, proprietary Marvel-Schebler
design data. Because MSA is the direct source of these carburetors, MSA’s
maintenance manuals, service bulletins and other maintenance data are the
correct and appropriate data to reference when servicing these carburetors as
that data is for all other carburetors produced by MSA. Carburetors produced by
MSA under Aero Accessories, Inc’s (Aero) FAA-PMA authorization include
Marvel-Schebler
® models: MA-3A™, MA-3PA™, MA-3SPA™, MA-4SPA™,
MA-4-5™, MA-4-5AA™, MA-6AA™, and HA-6™.
3. Compliance :
Use appropriate service information when servicing MSA carburators.
Click to expand...
Two things here that stand out.
First, you have not shown or quoted a single FAR.
next SBs are not required maintenance for Part 91 operators.
 
Tom-D said:
Two things here that stand out.
First, you have not shown or quoted a single FAR.
next SBs are not required maintenance for Part 91 operators.
Click to expand...
That's funny, 43.13 stands out in the quote, in your response.
You can choose to ignore service bulletins, it does not negate the fact that the manufacturer told you/everyone.
 
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