What do the regs say about knowledge requirements on checkride?

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DMD3.

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DMD3.
When it comes to DME arcs, if there aren't any airports around with those types of approaches, or if I call the DPE and he tells me he won't require me to do them, would I be breaking any regs by not knowing how? Even if the aircraft is equipped with DME?

Same with ADF. Though it's up to the DPE whether or not we do them or not on the checkride, if he tells me in advance I won't have to do them, am I required by law to at least know how?
 
I'm not the DPE.
If the equipment is in the aircraft, you should now how it works and how to use it.
There are not many ADF facilities left. An arc can be flown around any VORTAC, I would know how.

That said, there were no arc approaches in my check ride area and was not required to demonstrate. There was no ADF reciever in the airplane.
 
ADF, meh whatever, but DME arcs you should really know that, bad on your CFII for not covering it, there are plenty if arcs in the wild.
 
The regulations are silent on this issue. Assuming we're talking about the IR-A test for pilots, the PTS says the following for the knowledge/ground portion:

II. AREA OF OPERATION: PREFLIGHT PROCEDURES
...
2. Exhibits adequate knowledge of the applicable aircraft navigation system(s) and their operating characteristics to include—​

a. VOR.​
b. DME.​
c. ILS.​
d. marker beacon receiver/indicators.​
e. transponder/altitude encoding.​
f. ADF.​
g. GPS.​
h. FMS.​
i. autopilot.
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...and by "applicable", they mean "installed in the aircraft provided for the practical test". For the flight portion, it says:

V. AREA OF OPERATION: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS​
A. TASK: INTERCEPTING AND TRACKING NAVIGATIONAL​
SYSTEMS AND DME ARCS​
REFERENCES: 14 CFR parts 61, 91; FAA-H-8083-15; AIM.​
NOTE:​
Any reference to DME arcs, ADF, or GPS shall be disregarded if the aircraft is not equipped with these specified navigational systems.
​
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Note that it says "shall", not "may" -- that means the DPE has no choice in the matter and must not test you on those things in flight.​
OTOH, for the Flight Instructor-Instrument test, the "applicable" is left out:​
II. AREA OF OPERATION: TECHNICAL SUBJECT AREAS​
NOTE:​
The examiner shall select TASKS A and D and at least one​

other TASK.​
A. TASK: AIRCRAFT FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS AND​
NAVIGATION EQUIPMENT​
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-15, FAA-S-8081-4.​
Objective.​
To determine that the applicant exhibits instructional​

knowledge of aircraft:
...
2. Navigation equipment and their operating characteristics to​
include​
⎯​
a. VHF omnirange (VOR).​
b. distance measuring equipment (DME).​
c. instrument landing system (ILS)​
d. marker beacon receiver/indicators.​
e. automatic direction finder (ADF).​
f. transponder/altitude encoding.​
g. electronic flight instrument display.​
h. global positioning system (GPS)​
i. automatic pilot.​
j. flight management system (FMS).​
k. multifunction display, if installed.
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...so at least on the knowledge/ground portion of the test, fundamental knowledge of all listed types of systems is fair game (except MFD's if there isn't one installed). Obviously, they won't be asking you which button to push on a Honeywell FMZ2000 to get it to do thus-and-such unless there's one of those in the plane you brought with you, but they may ask you to explain what an FMS is and what it does as discussed in the relevant FAA handbooks like the IFH. Likewise, for the flight portion of the CFI-IA practical test:​

VlI. AREA OF OPERATION: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS​
NOTE:​
The examiner shall select TASK A and B. If aircraft is not DME​

equipped, performance of DME arcs shall be tested orally.
​
​
​
​
​
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So if you do your CFI-IA training with me, and your plane lacks ADF/DME, you're going to learn them academically so you can handle Area IIA, and practice them in the sim with me so you can explain how to do both even if you won't be asked to perform them on the practical test.​
​
OTOH, if you're training for the pilot instrument rating, I'm not going to waste your time or money teaching you about systems which aren't in your plane so a) they won't be tested by the examiner and b) you won't be flying them on your own. I will, however, get you to promise that if you ever have any new-to-you gear installed (or buy a plane with same), you will get me or another instrument instructor to teach you how to use them properly before you try to use them.​
 
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The plane I took my ride in didn't have an ADF. My CFI knew the DPE wouldn't test on DME arcs but we still did them. We had to make our own because there aren't too many near LI. Generally If it's in the plane know how to use it because it's fair game.
 
Yep, don't forget the A/P. The DPE asked me questions about my autopilot which I was not using through the partial panel approach. We had come out of several unusual attitude drills and which during the later ones the gyros got covered up. He told me to fly the RNAV approach back into the field, I hand flew it to the IAF and was on the first leg of the T.

DPE: How does your autopilot function during a vacuum failure.
ME: Works just fine, it's all electric and runs of the turn coordinator. In fact, I'd have not lost the DG either as the HSI is electric.
DPE: So why don't you use the A/P.
ME: OK

I punched up the autopilot carefully hovering over the red button in case I didn't do it right.

It was a damn gusty day so somewhere before the FAF he suggested I could do a better job handflying it so I cancelled it and went on.

If your AP will couple the glide slope, you'd better make sure you understand the vagaries of that.
 
Right or wrong, I never did a DME arc in my training either. I never looked too hard, but I don't think there are any in the Chicago area.

I made sure I understood them before the check ride, but they never came up. I also have never been into an airport that had one on an approach. And that has been all over the midwest, and south. It would be easy enought to do one with the 430W.

Just out of curiosity, anyone know of one anywhere near Chicago? It would be fun to go try one.
 
If your using the auto pilot be sure you know wich circuit breaker it is on. In case he asks you to disable it. Did practiced DME arcs before the test, never had to do one actual.
 
I would imagine that 'knowledge' on an oral and 'demonstrated proficiency' on the check flight portions are separate issues. I would expect that any covered knowledge would be fair game on the oral regardless of expectations of demonstrated ability.
 
As I read the title of your post, you do not own a copy of the regulations. Please correct this oversight.

Bob Gardner
 
Reedster said:
Right or wrong, I never did a DME arc in my training either. I never looked too hard, but I don't think there are any in the Chicago area.
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This is part of the Navigation Systems Area, not the Instrument Approach Procedures Area, so it doesn't have to be part of a published procedure. All the examiner need do is say, "Join the JOT 240 radial, track it to the JOT 10 mile DME arc, and then track that arc clockwise around to the 300 radial." I've seen that with examiners all over the country. Only way you can be sure you won't get this this is by not having a DME or IFR GPS in the plane.
 
Henning said:
I would imagine that 'knowledge' on an oral and 'demonstrated proficiency' on the check flight portions are separate issues. I would expect that any covered knowledge would be fair game on the oral regardless of expectations of demonstrated ability.
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That depends on the wording in the PTS. As noted above, the knowledge portion is only "the applicable aircraft systems" for instrument pilot, but that restriction is not in the equivalent Task on the instrument instructor PTS. So, if it's not in the plane, the instrument pilot rating applicant doesn't have to know it, but with the explicit exception for FMS, they're all fair game for the instrument instructor rating applicant.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is part of the Navigation Systems Area, not the Instrument Approach Procedures Area, so it doesn't have to be part of a published procedure. All the examiner need do is say, "Join the JOT 240 radial, track it to the JOT 10 mile DME arc, and then track that arc clockwise around to the 300 radial." I've seen that with examiners all over the country. Only way you can be sure you won't get this this is by not having a DME or IFR GPS in the plane.
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That is perfectly fair, and something that I am pretty sure I could have done at the time. I wouldn't have any issue doing it now, but my situational awareness is much better now.

It is interesting that it never came up in training or during any part of the exam. I was definitely prepared to talk about it during the oral if it was brought up.

One thing that I remember from my PP is that the instructors know what the DPE looks for. Both check rides I have taken the DPE told me what we were going to do and we did it. No surprises during the flight. The oral took a couple of detours, but I was ready for them, as I knew the material cold.

I don't think I would have put the distinction of the different areas together. I made the assumption that we would have to fly a published one, but it makes sense that we wouldn't have.
 
Reedster said:
One thing that I remember from my PP is that the instructors know what the DPE looks for. Both check rides I have taken the DPE told me what we were going to do and we did it. No surprises during the flight. The oral took a couple of detours, but I was ready for them, as I knew the material cold.
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My CFI says that none of his students have had to do DME arcs on their checkride, despite being in a /G aircraft, which is why I haven't been taught to do them.
 
DMD3. said:
My CFI says that none of his students have had to do DME arcs on their checkride, despite being in a /G aircraft, which is why I haven't been taught to do them.
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In the dancing world, that is called the quickstep: Just teach for the exam and ignore anything else that a student might run into in real life.

Any good syllabus will include arcs, and any good instructor will use a syllabus and give you a copy. Then you can say "Hey, we haven't done arcs yet!" and meet his/her response with the disdain it deserves.

Bob Gardner
 
DMD3. said:
My CFI says that none of his students have had to do DME arcs on their checkride, despite being in a /G aircraft, which is why I haven't been taught to do them.
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Your CFI's experience must be extremely limited. I give initial IR training to people all over the country, so I work with DPE's all over the country, and while some only test DME arcs if there's an arc on one of the approaches to be flown, most will require a DME arc if you have an IFR GPS or DME in the plane -- even an unpublished arc as described in post #11. So, if that's your instructor's attitude, make sure either your instructor teaches you how to do DME arcs with the GPS you have, or you take the test with that one examiner he normally uses and that examiner doesn't decide on the spur of the moment to test you on an arc.
 
So much of aviation training is geared at just learning enough to pass the exams. When I first started my IR, I picked up a training book that had nothing but questions and answers in it. While I understand the concept, that is not the way I learn.

I tossed that book, picked up Bob's the Complete Advanced Pilot (that book went everywhere with me for 8 months). I wanted to know the material, not just be able to regurgitate it. I easily passed the written and the oral, because I knew it well enough to apply it as needed.

I haven't run into that as much with the actual flight training. My PP CFI taught me everything that was required at the time, but when we went to review for the practical, we focussed on what the DPE would focus on.

During my IR, we never talked about what the DPE would look for. The DPE told me the night before what to plan for and expect.

My guess is that the local CFII's had never had a student sent back for not being able to fly an arc, so it probably just got dropped. It never occured to me to bring it up.
 
bobmrg said:
In the dancing world, that is called the quickstep: Just teach for the exam and ignore anything else that a student might run into in real life.

Any good syllabus will include arcs, and any good instructor will use a syllabus and give you a copy. Then you can say "Hey, we haven't done arcs yet!" and meet his/her response with the disdain it deserves.

Bob Gardner
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Yep. My CFI knew that the DPE wouldn't test on DME arcs but we still did them just for the sake of learning it
 
DMD3. said:
My CFI says that none of his students have had to do DME arcs on their checkride, despite being in a /G aircraft, which is why I haven't been taught to do them.
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Come out to MPV on an IFR day in an airplane without a WAAS GPS and there's a very good chance your best choice will be an approach with a DME arc. They still exist and someday you might have to fly one.

I never flew a DME arc before moving out here either and wasn't even sure what kind of lateral course guidance my 480 would give me on an arc leg. My CFIIs back in Michigan never taught me because the nearest approach with a DME arc was at TVC. But as others have said, the technique can be taught outside of an approach context. Why not ask your CFII?
 
azure said:
Come out to MPV on an IFR day in an airplane without a WAAS GPS and there's a very good chance your best choice will be an approach with a DME arc. They still exist and someday you might have to fly one.

I never flew a DME arc before moving out here either and wasn't even sure what kind of lateral course guidance my 480 would give me on an arc leg. My CFIIs back in Michigan never taught me because the nearest approach with a DME arc was at TVC. But as others have said, the technique can be taught outside of an approach context. Why not ask your CFII?
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I think that his instructor's ability to think outside of the box has been adequately demonstrated in this thread.

Bob Gardner
 
If you are flying a radial based on the same VOR as the DME is based on, and the guy asks you to turn onto the arc at say 10DME, the turn is always a 90 degree turn, and at the speed trainers fly about 1 mile before.
 
Reedster said:
Right or wrong, I never did a DME arc in my training either. I never looked too hard, but I don't think there are any in the Chicago area.

I made sure I understood them before the check ride, but they never came up. I also have never been into an airport that had one on an approach. And that has been all over the midwest, and south. It would be easy enought to do one with the 430W.

Just out of curiosity, anyone know of one anywhere near Chicago? It would be fun to go try one.
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None that I know of. All of my training on arcs was doing arcing around the JOT vortac.
 
ahkahn said:
None that I know of. All of my training on arcs was doing arcing around the JOT vortac.
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Not a bad idea, except on a Saturday when there are 15 planes between 2,000 and 3,500 flying to around or away from the JOT VOR.


LL10 only has a VOR approach (for the moment) with the JOT as the IAF so after doing practise approaches at ARR, I always try to get one last one in heading back to Naper. I dont think I have been able to fly a full approach more than once or twice, due to too many planes around JOT.

At least at Clow you have an RNAV to keep you away fro JOT.

I am thinking next time I am up doing approaches, that I might venture down to PNT or CGT and do a few there.
 
BTW congrats on the Lance. It seems like a sweet plane.
 
Reedster said:
Not a bad idea, except on a Saturday when there are 15 planes between 2,000 and 3,500 flying to around or away from the JOT VOR.
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True for many busy VOR's, but doing a 10-mile arc around a VOR usually keeps you far enough away from the mess directly overhead that VOR.
 
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