What car is right for me?

[weilke]

You have all missed the obvious choice... VW Thing

The german army is in the process of moving early 90s Mercedes G convertibles into surplus. 92hp diesel, stick-shift, squad bench, convertible and enough room for some guitars. As they are older than 25 years you can even import them as 'historic' and laugh at the EPA.

 

[asicer]

The german army is in the process of moving early 90s Mercedes G convertibles into surplus. 92hp diesel, stick-shift, squad bench, convertible and enough room for some guitars. As they are older than 25 years you can even import them as 'historic' and laugh at the EPA.


View attachment 62297

If you're going to go in that direction may as well go whole hog and get a Unimog.

 

[genna]

Also even thought Car & Driver picked the Miata as a 10 best cars for 17 & 18, they said it has lots of body roll for a sports car.

I know that everyone seems to want flat handling cars, but, in real world, some body roll is good. It allows for better ride, better handling on imperfect surface, and, ultimately, more entertainment on normal roads. You're not buying a race car, but a sports car. There is a difference.

 

[jsstevens]

I know that everyone seems to want flat handling cars, but, in real world, some body roll is good. It allows for better ride, better handling on imperfect surface, and, ultimately, more entertainment on normal roads. You're not buying a race car, but a sports car. There is a difference.

I will drive one. As I’m considering I’m aware that I like light sporty cars. I enjoy my Mini more than the GTR I’ve driven and more than the Porsche Turbo (500+ hp). Miata might for the bill.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

I know that everyone seems to want flat handling cars, but, in real world, some body roll is good. It allows for better ride, better handling on imperfect surface, and, ultimately, more entertainment on normal roads. You're not buying a race car, but a sports car. There is a difference.

So true. Excessive body roll is no fun at all, but a little will make a car more forgiving at the limit, and easier to sense where the limit is. Miatas have too much roll softness in stock form for my tastes, but the aftermarket is huge for them and offers all kinds of remedies. Flyin' Miata and 949 Racing are a couple of really good shops.

GT-Rs are kinda miserable when driven below 7/10ths. Clunky gearbox, stiff ride, hissy engine note. But the harder you drive them, the more magical they become. Miatas, MR2s, et al. are really enjoyable during the commute, or just driven briskly in real-world conditions. Sometimes it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

 

[weilke]

If you're going to go in that direction may as well go whole hog and get a Unimog.

The older versions of these (60s era) have gas engines. All it takes is a converter plate for the bolt pattern to hang a 2.5l diesel from a 80s era 250D. There was an entire subculture of turning those into off-road capable campers. Before the days of isis, you could drive all the way across the Sahara.

And plenty of room for guitars.

 

[genna]

Sometimes it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

Except in a race, this statement is always true, I feel. I have a fast car. I’ve had it for 5 years. In that time, I’ve probably only had it at WOT total of a few minutes. And I like going fast.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Except in a race, this statement is always true, I feel. I have a fast car. I’ve had it for 5 years. In that time, I’ve probably only had it at WOT total of a few minutes. And I like going fast.

Speed for the sake of speed doesn't excite me, but when I'm on a track going for a time, that's a whole 'nuther story.

 

[denverpilot]

Since we’re talking fun cars... this pops up in the news today...

https://jalopnik.com/cops-seize-130-000-nissan-skyline-gt-r-at-florida-car-1825542919/amp

And of course if you’re unfamiliar with the incredibly strange and useless job ICE is tasked with regarding imports of foreign cars less than 25 years old, you can read this...

https://jalopnik.com/the-shady-way-...9678.466117356.1523324862-458600179.152148050

Which pretty much everyone agrees is just a law written to protect American car manufacturers from imports written in the bad old days of American manufacturers having their butts handed to them.

The law hides under the idea that these cars never met emissions, safety, or other laws, but really, there’s plenty of bog standard American cars from the same vintage that puke out more emissions than any of these sports cars ever did, and the cars are equally as safe or better than piles of American crap from the same vintages also.

It’s just garbage law to keep competitors cars that were never offered in the States, out of the States, to bolster sales of stuff that jumped through all the Federal hoops two decades ago.

What a waste of resources, really.

But then again we are living in the brilliant country that came up with Cash for Clunkers to destroy thousands of used vehicle and not allow them to be recycled for component engine parts just so certain automakers could be assisted off of their deathbeds.

 

[denverpilot]

Oh yeah, and I forgot. Ford has decided to commit suicide.

Okay not quickly, but this is really incredible news. They’ve essentially ceded the entire small car market to everyone else.

https://jalopnik.com/ford-will-phase-out-all-its-small-cars-in-north-america-1825544784

I guess when you can drive a brand new Kia or Hyundai off a lot with a 100,000 mile ten year warranty for $13,000 cash, Ford doesn’t want to play down there anymore. Or simply can’t.

 

[weilke]

I know that everyone seems to want flat handling cars, but, in real world, some body roll is good. It allows for better ride, better handling on imperfect surface, and, ultimately, more entertainment on normal roads. You're not buying a race car, but a sports car. There is a difference.

And if you don't like the degree of roll on a new Miata, a set of stiffer sway bars can fix that for relatively little money.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Oh yeah, and I forgot. Ford has decided to commit suicide.

Okay not quickly, but this is really incredible news. They’ve essentially ceded the entire small car market to everyone else.

https://jalopnik.com/ford-will-phase-out-all-its-small-cars-in-north-america-1825544784

I guess when you can drive a brand new Kia or Hyundai off a lot with a 100,000 mile ten year warranty for $13,000 cash, Ford doesn’t want to play down there anymore. Or simply can’t.

I'd love to have an R34 V.Spec, but not at $130K and dealing with import rules, lol. As far as Ford dropping passenger cars, it doesn't much bother me. The Taurus was long overdue for an update, the Fusion is probably nearing it's design life cycle as well. The only decent models to drive were the Taurus SHO or Focus ST/RS models. If the market is fixated on crossovers and SUVs, why waste time/production capacity to make a product that adds little to the bottom line? At least the Mustang will continue on, and Lincoln will continue to make the passenger cars that are essentially identical to the models Ford is axing.

 

[denverpilot]

At least the Mustang will continue on, and Lincoln will continue to make the passenger cars that are essentially identical to the models Ford is axing.

I missed that they will keep selling small cars with Lincoln branding. That’s interesting. (I don’t consider Ford and Lincoln different, Lincoln is just the leather wrapped version of Ford. Ha.)

I sure do hate the bumper-less crop (get it?) of nearly identical bubble shaped “crossovers” from everyone these days. The only way you can even tell them apart in parking lots is by their badging. I was chuckling about this just last night walking back to my car... the rear profiles are identical between numerous manufacturers. The Lexus looked like the Jeep looked like the Mazda... etc. Same vehicles, styling wise.

All homogenized, all the same. It’s like the modern version of what the minivan was in the 90s. Booooooring. And not even that comfortable or good gas mileage or anything.

People quite happy with the infotainment gadgets in all of them that can’t be upgraded and usually aren’t, too. Paying for the same planned obsolescence as your smartphone in your dashboard, is incredibly dumb. But hard to get away from... you can’t order most things without all that crap, because they’ve integrated the touch screen into the vehicle controls.

Just think how much fun that’ll be to replace when the heater won’t kick on in winter because you’ve worn out the touch screen ten years before you wore out the car. There’s something to be said for simple controls that are modular and replaceable that do one thing.

Visibility out of almost all of them (and too many new cars going to aerodynamics above safety) is truly awful, which pretty much forced the rear camera mandates.

You can’t see anything out of a slit window in a little rolling suburban pillbox, go figure. So you stuff it full of cameras and sensors so you don’t hit crap.

The sensors are the modern version of “curb feelers”. LOL. Remember those on land yachts?

Anyway as far as the Ford move to kill small cars goes, I’m mostly surprised for two reasons... they have no way to build brand loyalty in a younger generation, who’ll buy the first family sedan from someone else now. The kids will buy a Hyundai and then upgrade into another Hyundai. That’s what I meant by them starting their suicide. Long term. I don’t think the kids will be swayed over to the Lincoln brand by Matthew McConnahey acting like he’s driving around stoned. (Hmm, maybe they will. Hahahaha,)

They also had relatively decent offerings in the hybrid market, which actually had a touch of style over a bunch of other bland and boring ones. Maybe they’ve also just ceded that market to Toyota and the Prius due to Toyota’s massive brand and type loyalty there.

@flyingcheesehead had one of Ford’s electrics and liked it, but I think he sold it? Not sure. Kent?

 

[SoonerAviator]

To be fair, I haven’t seen anything that confirms Lincoln will continue with their passenger car lineup, but if you don’t have the MKZ/MKS and Continental, why even have Lincoln as a brand at all? It’s tough to rely on just the Navigator sales.

I think someone had the Ford Fusion hybrid and was pretty happy with it for what it was.


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[Dav8or]

Since we’re talking fun cars... this pops up in the news today...

https://jalopnik.com/cops-seize-130-000-nissan-skyline-gt-r-at-florida-car-1825542919/amp

And of course if you’re unfamiliar with the incredibly strange and useless job ICE is tasked with regarding imports of foreign cars less than 25 years old, you can read this...

The only real strange thing about that story is the idea that somebody might actually pay $130,000 for that car! That's mind blowing.

 

[denverpilot]

The only real strange thing about that story is the idea that somebody might actually pay $130,000 for that car! That's mind blowing.

LOL... true. True. That money will buy a lot of cars that don’t have to be smuggled around in pieces in shipping containers.

I think the folks who spend that kind of money probably have a lot of cars already.

Not the guy who had a $20,000 one crushed by the government though. But that guy said he always knew that could happen.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The only real strange thing about that story is the idea that somebody might actually pay $130,000 for that car! That's mind blowing.

Well, especially when you can buy a new Nissan GT-R top-level model for less than that, and go faster.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oh yeah, and I forgot. Ford has decided to commit suicide.

Okay not quickly, but this is really incredible news. They’ve essentially ceded the entire small car market to everyone else.

https://jalopnik.com/ford-will-phase-out-all-its-small-cars-in-north-america-1825544784

Holy crap!

Ford was losing money on the Fusion?!?!? How? There are about a trillion of them on the road, and if all that couldn't pay back the R&D, or they were selling them at margins too slim to do so, well, that's their own damn fault. I mean, wow.

People quite happy with the infotainment gadgets in all of them that can’t be upgraded and usually aren’t, too. Paying for the same planned obsolescence as your smartphone in your dashboard, is incredibly dumb. But hard to get away from... you can’t order most things without all that crap, because they’ve integrated the touch screen into the vehicle controls.

That's one of the nice things with Tesla's system - Everyone gets over-the-air updates. Even their earliest Model S cars, from 2012, are still getting updates today.

They also had relatively decent offerings in the hybrid market, which actually had a touch of style over a bunch of other bland and boring ones. Maybe they’ve also just ceded that market to Toyota and the Prius due to Toyota’s massive brand and type loyalty there.

Which is weird, to me. Someone who's really interested in being "Green" should be going electric, and Toyota completely squandered their massive lead there by redirecting to fuel cells for a number of years before coming to their senses. I hope selling a whopping 3,000 Mirais was worth it.

@flyingcheesehead had one of Ford’s electrics and liked it, but I think he sold it? Not sure. Kent?

It was a lease. Turned it back in back in November. Ford has said they're going to be doing big things with EVs, but it's all talk so far, and likely to remain so with this latest news. Plus, the residual was quite a bit higher than I could have gotten one for on the used market. I ended up getting an absolute steal on a lease takeover for a BMW i3, so I'll have that until the end of October.

The engineering on the Fusion Energi was fantastic. IMO, they should have increased the battery capacity by a factor of two and kept selling 'em, they would have been good competition for the Volt (actually, the Fusion would have been head and shoulders better if they just addressed that one weakness). But, GM has run away from Ford now in the PHEV sedan market, and also has a small fully electric crossover (the Bolt).

I seriously can't believe Ford was losing money on the Fusion. SMH.

 

[Dav8or]

Holy crap!

Ford was losing money on the Fusion?!?!? How? There are about a trillion of them on the road, and if all that couldn't pay back the R&D, or they were selling them at margins too slim to do so, well, that's their own damn fault. I mean, wow.



That's one of the nice things with Tesla's system - Everyone gets over-the-air updates. Even their earliest Model S cars, from 2012, are still getting updates today.



Which is weird, to me. Someone who's really interested in being "Green" should be going electric, and Toyota completely squandered their massive lead there by redirecting to fuel cells for a number of years before coming to their senses. I hope selling a whopping 3,000 Mirais was worth it.

It was a lease. Turned it back in back in November. Ford has said they're going to be doing big things with EVs, but it's all talk so far, and likely to remain so with this latest news. Plus, the residual was quite a bit higher than I could have gotten one for on the used market. I ended up getting an absolute steal on a lease takeover for a BMW i3, so I'll have that until the end of October.

The engineering on the Fusion Energi was fantastic. IMO, they should have increased the battery capacity by a factor of two and kept selling 'em, they would have been good competition for the Volt (actually, the Fusion would have been head and shoulders better if they just addressed that one weakness). But, GM has run away from Ford now in the PHEV sedan market, and also has a small fully electric crossover (the Bolt).

I seriously can't believe Ford was losing money on the Fusion. SMH.

I don't think Ford was losing money on the Fusion. I'm sure there was profit, but one of the metrics investors and Wall Street is looking at is overall profit margin and Ford's profit margin has been in decline, largely due to the cars. So while most if not all of their cars were technically profitable, their profit margins were getting smaller and smaller and thereby dragging the whole company's profit margin down.

Ford management has maneuvered the company to the position that it now has a stale and backward thinking image. Tesla has shown the future and people are excited about that future. The other car companies are now trying to follow Tesla into the future, but Ford has now doubled down on the past. This latest decision will likely make their books look better in the short term, but long term the problem won't be shrinking profit margins as much as shrinking market share. But hey, American companies are world famous for making poor decisions in favor of short term gains. Ford is just upholding an American tradition.

 

[denverpilot]

Tesla has shown the future and people are excited about that future.

If Tesla is the future, I'm TRULY not interested... not even in the slightest. Their stuff bores me to death. More tech BS, less driving.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Ford management has maneuvered the company to the position that it now has a stale and backward thinking image. Tesla has shown the future and people are excited about that future. The other car companies are now trying to follow Tesla into the future, but Ford has now doubled down on the past. This latest decision will likely make their books look better in the short term, but long term the problem won't be shrinking profit margins as much as shrinking market share. But hey, American companies are world famous for making poor decisions in favor of short term gains. Ford is just upholding an American tradition.

Easy there, Tiger, lol. I think Ford might be playing to their strengths. They do great in the SUV and truck market. The Taurus has been a bloated, over-priced full size sedan for a long time, and their competition (Hyundai, Honda, Toyota) has been holding market share for a long time. Margins are slim on mid-size sedans like the Fusion because people look closely at price and warranty. It’s how Hyundai broke into the market.

The crossovers and SUVs have shown a ton of growth as more and more people choose a 4-door SUV over a similarly priced sedan. The Edge/Explorer/Expedition already have a strong following and the margins are much better because people are typically buying upgraded models. They also don’t need to do the GM thing and have duplicate platforms across several models, they can let Lincoln sell luxury sedans.

As far as “green tech”, there’s no reason they can’t bring the Fusion Energi tech to the crossover/mid-size SUV market. Probably not that useful for the full size market, which exclusively uses the EB v6.


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[Dav8or]

If Tesla is the future, I'm TRULY not interested... not even in the slightest. Their stuff bores me to death. More tech BS, less driving.

Well, the good new is, Ford will likely be around as long as you will be.

 

[SoonerAviator]

If Tesla is the future, I'm TRULY not interested... not even in the slightest. Their stuff bores me to death. More tech BS, less driving.

I don’t mind the idea behind Tesla and an all-electric car. At least their models are somewhat sporty compared to the Volt or Leaf. For a DD, it’d work for me if I could get something similar to a Model S for $40K or less. Im not paying $70K for it though.

I’ll still always have a full size truck or SUV for long trips and towing. Until they can get the range and recharge times similar to what I get with my truck, I’ll never have nothing but total electric vehicles in my stable.


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[flyingcheesehead]

I don't think Ford was losing money on the Fusion.

That's what the article said... It seems almost inconceivable, though.

I don’t mind the idea behind Tesla and an all-electric car. At least their models are somewhat sporty compared to the Volt or Leaf. For a DD, it’d work for me if I could get something similar to a Model S for $40K or less. Im not paying $70K for it though.

Get in line...

Tesla Model 3. Slightly smaller than the S, starts at $35,000. Plunk down a $1,000 deposit today, and you can have it in late 2019 after the 500,000 people in line in front of you (including me) get theirs!

 

[SoonerAviator]

That's what the article said... It seems almost inconceivable, though.



Get in line...

Tesla Model 3. Slightly smaller than the S, starts at $35,000. Plunk down a $1,000 deposit today, and you can have it in late 2019 after the 500,000 people in line in front of you (including me) get theirs!

Lol, well I was referring to a model like the Model S made by another company in the distant future. If I’m owning/driving a sedan, it’s not going to be a mid-size model. I’m certainly not a Tesla fanboy, but I do like their novel approach to the market (despite having investors who enable Musk to keep missing deadlines and financial results).


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[Dav8or]

Easy there, Tiger, lol. I think Ford might be playing to their strengths. They do great in the SUV and truck market. The Taurus has been a bloated, over-priced full size sedan for a long time, and their competition (Hyundai, Honda, Toyota) has been holding market share for a long time. Margins are slim on mid-size sedans like the Fusion because people look closely at price and warranty. It’s how Hyundai broke into the market.

The crossovers and SUVs have shown a ton of growth as more and more people choose a 4-door SUV over a similarly priced sedan. The Edge/Explorer/Expedition already have a strong following and the margins are much better because people are typically buying upgraded models. They also don’t need to do the GM thing and have duplicate platforms across several models, they can let Lincoln sell luxury sedans.

As far as “green tech”, there’s no reason they can’t bring the Fusion Energi tech to the crossover/mid-size SUV market. Probably not that useful for the full size market, which exclusively uses the EB v6.


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Sure they are. It's just that their strengths have diminished and now they have publicly announced it. They used to be one of the world's greatest truck and car makers, but they now admit that they can't compete with foreign companies. Like I said, this move will likely mean their overall company profit margin will go up, but their market share and gross income will go down.

As of last year, the car market in the US was still 27.5% of all vehicles sales, well above pickup sales, yet they all but abandoned this segment. Other companies certainly will not and in fact they will welcome this news. Oh well, Ford is now to be a smaller, shrinking company. So be it. Soon, in my later sunset years, everything we buy will not only be made in China, but also Chinese owned companies.

I am so glad I didn't have kids. American kids are screwed going forward.

 

[denverpilot]

...(despite having investors who enable Musk to keep missing deadlines and financial results).

Even zealots eventually get tired of investments underperforming. That won’t last forever.

Profitless for 13 years, market cap valued at higher than all of the other automakers, and only sold 36,000 vehicles last year.

But until they’re not “beloved” by investors willing to put up with that, shorting them is a bad idea.

They’re one of those “don’t mess with it” stocks if you’re a value investor who looks at hard numbers and thinks rationally about them. Their investors aren’t rational at all.

Just back away slowly from the Musk cult and you’ll be fine.

Musk using Tesla to rescue Solar City was something no other investor base would ever put up with. Horrible business decision.

 

[Buster1]

If Tesla is the future, I'm TRULY not interested... not even in the slightest. Their stuff bores me to death. More tech BS, less driving.

I just purchased a Tesla model S. I was also concerned once as you are, about it being too automated and boring. But you can truely DRIVE this car, and it’s brilliant. And soooo fast. If you want to relax a little you still have the ability to let the car do a little driving for you on highways (but you have to monitor it closely).

Anyway, I’m a fan and I think Tesla, if they’ve done anything, is that they opened other car-makers eyes to the EV industry.

PS - If anyone is interested in a Tesla car or Tesla Solar, use my link to get free supercharging for life or extended warranties. Thanks!
http://ts.la/nate61

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Profitless for 13 years, market cap valued at higher than all of the other automakers, and only sold 36,000 vehicles last year.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but they're wrong - Tesla sold 103,000 vehicles last year, and they're currently constrained by production.

Also, that's what people used to say about Amazon, who took 15 years to break even... Because they were investing all of their money in growth. That is not a bad thing.

But until they’re not “beloved” by investors willing to put up with that, shorting them is a bad idea.

Betting against Elon Musk is always a bad idea. He has made a lot of extremely bold predictions, and while his timeframes are usually off, the amount of formerly-unbelievable things he has managed to accomplish is astonishing.

They’re one of those “don’t mess with it” stocks if you’re a value investor who looks at hard numbers and thinks rationally about them. Their investors aren’t rational at all.

The same could be said of... Well, investors in the majority of companies, IMO. If you want slow, steady growth, you invest in old companies. But, and awful lot of investors (too many, really) are looking to make a quick buck and so they take risks. Sometimes you lose it all, sometimes you win big.

Musk using Tesla to rescue Solar City was something no other investor base would ever put up with. Horrible business decision.

To some extent, yes. I think it'd have been better to simply hire away all their engineers and let 'em go bankrupt rather than taking on their debt. It's the American way! But I think there are also some positive aspects to it, though we won't be seeing positive cashflow from that part of the business for a couple years yet.

 

[denverpilot]

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but they're wrong - Tesla sold 103,000 vehicles last year, and they're currently constrained by production.

Was a recap of their investor relations call. Probably GAAP principals. I bet your number is from Tesla and is how many they took deposits on, not completed sales.

Meanwhile, as of June 2017 (latest I could find quickly) Ford sells 2500 F-150s a DAY and all pickup trucks only numbers are 6500 per DAY.

And Tesla’s market cap is higher than Ford. LOL. Makes no business sense at all. None.

It’s all based on hype and the special Musk Zone where reality doesn’t apply. Not real sales numbers.

Tesla is very lightly held by institutional investors for good reason. The risk is exceedingly high.

 

[CC268]

Ford 4 lyfe

 

[denverpilot]

I just purchased a Tesla model S. I was also concerned once as you are, about it being too automated and boring. But you can truely DRIVE this car, and it’s brilliant. And soooo fast. If you want to relax a little you still have the ability to let the car do a little driving for you on highways (but you have to monitor it closely).

Anyway, I’m a fan and I think Tesla, if they’ve done anything, is that they opened other car-makers eyes to the EV industry.

PS - If anyone is interested in a Tesla car or Tesla Solar, use my link to get free supercharging for life or extended warranties. Thanks!
http://ts.la/nate61

Don’t doubt it can be driven. Was talking about the non-driven future.

But in response to this off-shoot, there’s a number of car models that can do what the Tesla does on the highway now, if the goal is driving with the occasional (alert but relaxed) monitoring of an autopilot type system.

No need anymore to buy the Tesla for that, really. All makers have some level of that tech now. Which isn’t a surprise really. Tesla didn’t have a lock on it.

So, boutique vehicle made in low quantity with iffy financials, or buy the same thing from a larger manufacturer? Who knows? Chevy should be dead completely by the rules of our financial system but we let politicians panic and finance their mistakes away. Our government chooses winners and losers now. So concerns about long term support and what not, are pretty much impossible to predict.

It’s all about popularity contests now. Not business.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Was a recap of their investor relations call. Probably GAAP principals. I bet your number is from Tesla and is how many they took deposits on, not completed sales.

No, the 103,000 was *deliveries*. 36,000 may have been Q4 deliveries plus in-transit. I'm sure they took way more than 103,000 deposits.

And Tesla’s market cap is higher than Ford. LOL. Makes no business sense at all. None.

It’s all based on hype and the special Musk Zone where reality doesn’t apply. Not real sales numbers.

The stock market makes no sense at all. This is not unique to Tesla!

OK, some companies make more sense than others... But I've seen the stock market do some absolutely boneheaded things. VMWare took a major hit after a quarterly earnings call where they didn't meet someone's expectation. IIRC, they were up something like 90% year-over-year for that quarter, but the stock still took a huge hit. Because of my IT background and keeping up with that industry, I also knew we were at the very beginning of a big upswing in virtualization. I happened to be sitting in the truck in standstill traffic in Chicago listening to WBBM's noon business hour, so I whipped out my phone and bought a bunch of VMWare stock right there! That's one of the things that paid for me to go back and finish my EE degree a couple years later, in fact.

Tesla is very lightly held by institutional investors for good reason. The risk is exceedingly high.

No doubt about that.

 

[Velocity173]

You can get used gen 1 Volts cheap these days. Gotta 2012 this year for $11,500. $1.30 a charge to go 35 miles. One of the best driving cars I’ve ever owned.

You’re not gonna get a Model 3 for only 35K. Not gonna pay 45K for a Model 3 to wait several years and make no mistake, it’ll be several years. They’ve got not just production control issue but quality issues as well. I can buy a Bolt (MT Car of the Year) for roughly the same price and performance today, without the wait. Don’t have to worry about a Tesla dealership nearby to work on it either. Oh, but it’s not trendy like a Model 3.

 

[denverpilot]

You’re not gonna get a Model 3 for only 35K. Not gonna pay 45K for a Model 3 to wait several years and make no mistake, it’ll be several years. They’ve got not just production control issue but quality issues as well. I can buy a Bolt (MT Car of the Year) for roughly the same price and performance today, without the wait. Don’t have to worry about a Tesla dealership nearby to work on it either. Oh, but it’s not trendy like a Model 3.

The Bolt is impressive.

I hate GM for their bailout and have pretty much vowed that company can’t have my money for anything ever, but damn if they didn’t do some interesting things as they started to recover. They only do this in small spurts though. Still selling the same old Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade as my ‘04. LOL.

They’re such a strange screwed up company. Ford and Dodge literally handed them a permanent win on diesel pickups and they were broke and squandered it.

But the Bolt is impressive as are a couple of their other newer offerings like the Cruize. Only company to have the cojones to keep making a diesel. (VW is dead to me. Wouldn’t buy another VW on a dare.)

Then there’s crazy-arsed Ford dropping all their small cars. Ugh. Seriously? Bubble cars and trucks only?

The real problem for me is longevity on rural roads. I laugh when I see the 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty... I’ll be to 100,000 on a daily driver in 4-5 years. That’s assuming it survives the washboard roads. An awful lot of these cheap vehicles simply won’t. Not without major repairs every few years in steering or suspension.

Buying new for me is like dumping a large pile of cash in the back acre of my property, dousing it in gasoline, and lighting it on fire, from a depreciation standpoint.

And then... I have to have at least an AWD option. That severely limits options and pushes the car (not truck) decision to Subaru. It’s hard to beat their AWD system at their price point. Which again is important due to the massive depreciation from mileage.

 

[Velocity173]

The Bolt is impressive.

I hate GM for their bailout and have pretty much vowed that company can’t have my money for anything ever, but damn if they didn’t do some interesting things as they started to recover. They only do this in small spurts though. Still selling the same old Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade as my ‘04. LOL.

They’re such a strange screwed up company. Ford and Dodge literally handed them a permanent win on diesel pickups and they were broke and squandered it.

But the Bolt is impressive as are a couple of their other newer offerings like the Cruize. Only company to have the cojones to keep making a diesel. (VW is dead to me. Wouldn’t buy another VW on a dare.)

Then there’s crazy-arsed Ford dropping all their small cars. Ugh. Seriously? Bubble cars and trucks only?

The real problem for me is longevity on rural roads. I laugh when I see the 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty... I’ll be to 100,000 on a daily driver in 4-5 years. That’s assuming it survives the washboard roads. An awful lot of these cheap vehicles simply won’t. Not without major repairs every few years in steering or suspension.

Buying new for me is like dumping a large pile of cash in the back acre of my property, dousing it in gasoline, and lighting it on fire, from a depreciation standpoint.

And then... I have to have at least an AWD option. That severely limits options and pushes the car (not truck) decision to Subaru. It’s hard to beat their AWD system at their price point. Which again is important due to the massive depreciation from mileage.

That’s why you do like I did. You get a Subaru for the AWD and a Volt for efficiency. Of course, in north GA I’ve only used the benefits of AWD about 3 times a year so not sure I really need 2 cars.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You can get used gen 1 Volts cheap these days. Gotta 2012 this year for $11,500. $1.30 a charge to go 35 miles. One of the best driving cars I’ve ever owned.

I wish more OEMs would copy it. I had a Ford Fusion Energi, larger than the Volt but with less electric range, and loved it. The only thing that would have made it better is... Having the Volt's electric range. Alas, Ford pretty much did nothing with them after their 2013 introduction except what they did with the regular Fusion, and now they're not going to make Fusions at all any more, which still blows my mind. Idiots, IMO.

You’re not gonna get a Model 3 for only 35K.

Why not?

They're not building the base models yet, but they're also not building the performance models. At their most recent earnings call, they said the base models plus the AWD will begin production once the line hits 5,000 per week which is due to happen by end of Q2 (the current rate is ~3,000 I think).

Not gonna pay 45K for a Model 3 to wait several years and make no mistake, it’ll be several years.

If you're not on the list yet, it will be late next year at a minimum.

They’ve got not just production control issue but quality issues as well.

On some of the earlier ones, they did... And they keep getting republished because, well, clickbait. But what I'm hearing from real owners of the recent ones is that they're by far the best cars they've ever owned.

I can buy a Bolt (MT Car of the Year) for roughly the same price and performance today, without the wait. Don’t have to worry about a Tesla dealership nearby to work on it either. Oh, but it’s not trendy like a Model 3.

Well, it probably is if you're in California. Anywhere else, it's probably like having a BMW i3 in Wisconsin (which I do): "WTF is that thing?"

FWIW, my brother has a Bolt. (In California.) He likes it a lot, but he's clearly having an inferiority complex about it, since he keeps telling me how much better it is than my Model 3 that doesn't exist yet. I'm a day-1, waited-in-line-at-the-store reservation holder, got my invite to configure a month ago, but I'm not ready for it yet (i3 lease ends in October) and I'm on the fence as to whether I'll spring for it. Pros: It's an awesome car, I'll get my limited-edition model version for standing in line. Cons: Depreciation, it's expensive, and it'd probably keep me from getting solar installed in 2019 before the tax credit starts getting phased out on that. If I can still get the AWD model before the end of the year, I might. Not going to be an easy decision. I'll likely end up with a gen-2 Volt for a few years and then pick up a used Model 3.

 

[Dav8or]

It’s all about popularity contests now. Not business.

Yep, so buy the car you like and works for you now. Who cares about all the Wall Street swindle crap?

 

[Dav8or]

You can get used gen 1 Volts cheap these days. Gotta 2012 this year for $11,500. $1.30 a charge to go 35 miles. One of the best driving cars I’ve ever owned.

You’re not gonna get a Model 3 for only 35K. Not gonna pay 45K for a Model 3 to wait several years and make no mistake, it’ll be several years. They’ve got not just production control issue but quality issues as well. I can buy a Bolt (MT Car of the Year) for roughly the same price and performance today, without the wait. Don’t have to worry about a Tesla dealership nearby to work on it either. Oh, but it’s not trendy like a Model 3.

That's what I did over a year ago. I bought a Bolt with no regrets. Absolutely love it! Tesla has yet to build a vehicle that suits me and I can afford.

 

[Dav8or]

I hate GM for their bailout and have pretty much vowed that company can’t have my money for anything ever, but damn if they didn’t do some interesting things as they started to recover.

Please explain this nonsense to me. Why do you hate GM and what company would you give your dollars to... if you were ever to actually buy a new car?