What can I do with a commercial ticket?

[mjburian]

I will likely start training for my instrument rating later this fall, and my dad/instructor seems to think it might be a good idea to get my commercial ticket as well.

I have no plans (at this time) to become a CFI or pursue a career in aviation... so what I'm wondering is:

What can I do with a commercial ticket?

 

[Lance F]

Have it available in case opportunity comes a knocking. MEL too, while you're at it. Keep in mind your ratings are good for life (baring violations). So if you can get them now, do it. It won't be cheaper down the road.

 

[mjburian]

Have it available in case opportunity comes a knocking. MEL too, while you're at it. Keep in mind your ratings are good for life (baring violations). So if you can get them now, do it. It won't be cheaper down the road.

Any examples of what "opportunity" might include? I've read a number of threads on this and other boards about how people can get into trouble by using their commercial ticket in a way that the regs do not allow.

What is / is not acceptable?

 

[ntbjounin]

e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to -- <br>
<br>
(1) Student instruction; <br>
<br>
(2) Nonstop sightseeing flights conducted with aircraft having a passenger seat configuration of 30 or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, that begin and end at the same airport, and are conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of that airport; however, for nonstop sightseeing flights for compensation or hire conducted in the vicinity of the Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona, the requirements of SFAR 50-2 of this part or 14 CFR
(3) Ferry or training flights; <br>
<br>
(4) Aerial work operations, including -- <br>
<br>
(i) Crop dusting, seeding, spraying, and bird chasing; <br>
<br>
(ii) Banner towing; <br>
<br>
(iii) Aerial photography or survey; <br>
<br>
(iv) Fire fighting; <br>

<br>
(v) Helicopter operations in construction or repair work (but it does apply to transportation to and from the site of operations); and <br>
<br>
(vi) Powerline or pipeline patrol; <br>
<br>
(5) Sightseeing flights conducted in hot air balloons; <br>
<br>
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of conducting intentional parachute operations. <br>
<br>

 

[Lance F]

Any examples of what "opportunity" might include? I've read a number of threads on this and other boards about how people can get into trouble by using their commercial ticket in a way that the regs do not allow.

What is / is not acceptable?

What I am saying is that with a commercial certificate you can fly someone else's airplane and they can PAY you.

I think the "trouble" you are refering to is people using their own planes (without a 135 certificate) and charging people to fly them somewhere. This is a no-no, and I am not suggesting that.

By opportunity I mean that if someone asks you (as they have asked me) to fly their plane, and you have the appropriate commercial certificate, you can say YES.

 

[TMetzinger]

As Lance has said, with a commercial ticket, people can pay YOU to fly THEIR airplane.

However, be aware that having the commercial and 2nd class medical is the entry level, and you'll be required to have or acquire experience in make and model in order to be covered by insurance.

There are also some things you can do with YOUR airplane without getting an air carrier or operator certificate, but again, insurance companies set the real standards in aviation above and beyond the minimums specified by the FAA.

 

[tonycondon]

yea, Lance is a fine example of why everyone should get their commercial multi.

at my FBO, since november, we've had a charter customer who has requested a second pilot for their twice weekly trips. its been a pain finding commercial multi pilots to go along. i keep trying to convince our CFIs to get theirs but they balk at the price. If they would've spent the 2500 bucks last fall and gotten the rating they would be bigtime money ahead at about 300 a week for riding along in the 421, and logging the empty legs as PIC.

 

[TMetzinger]

Tony - that money would probably cover the SWA fare out from BWI and back. When can I start?


Oh wait, I have to cover my mortgage and feed my family. drat.

 

[tonycondon]

Tony - that money would probably cover the SWA fare out from BWI and back. When can I start?


Oh wait, I have to cover my mortgage and feed my family. drat.

heh, you'd have to talk to my boss about that. basically its been me and him doing the trips, which is pretty retarded because we are the only two pilots on the 135 certificate right now. We do have one local guy who can fill in in a pinch if another trip books in the other airplane, but IMO the boss should be left behind all of the time so he can do chief pilot stuff.

 

[Lance F]

Great example Tony. Heck if I were out in Ames, I'd be riding with you.
I don't think Tony's operation is unusual. Many 135 customers want/expect/demand two pilots even in single pilot certified planes.

 

[nddons]

Marty raises a good question, and I was wondering about the other side to what I can do with a commercial ticket.

I'm about 20% of the way through my IR training. I really appreciate the precision with which I am learning to fly the aircraft - it already feels superior to what I learning earning my PPL 3 years ago.

Would a commercial certificate be adviseable if one simply wants to increase his precision and expertise in command of an aircraft? I've been reviewing my ASA Visualized Flight Maneuvers Handbook, and I think learning eights on pilons, crossed-control stalls, chandelles, lazy eights, etc. would be challenging but beneficial to overall expertise and safety.

 

[Lance F]

Just because you have a Commercial ticket doesn't mean you can jump in as a second pilot in a 135 operation because the customer requests one. The second pilot has to be allowed per the Operations Specifications, trained per the FAA approved training program for the operator, and checked by an approved Check-airman or the FAA.

If the second pilot doesn't have all the above and is just riding along as a "passenger" in the right seat for the live 135 regs to make the customer happy, the customer is being deceived and the "second" pilot better not so much as tune a radio lest he be mistaken for an illegal crewmember preforming duties as such.

All true, of course. But if you DON'T have a Commercial certificate, then you CAN'T be the second pilot under any circumstances and be paid. If the certificate holder is willing to pay to have you meet those 135 requirements to make his customers happy, a pilot can do it if he wants. But only with that Commercial certificate. Which is what the OP asked about.

And let me tell you, there can be some very nice Part 91 second pilot "opportunities" as well.

 

[poadeleted20]

Would a commercial certificate be adviseable if one simply wants to increase his precision and expertise in command of an aircraft?

Absolutely.

 

[Ted]

And let me tell you, there can be some very nice Part 91 second pilot "opportunities" as well.

Hmm... wonder what those could be?

I'll be going for my Commercial, no question about it. I just need hours first...

 

[Marfa Gliders]

Be a Towpilot! You could tow gliders after earning a towpilot endorsement per FAR 61.69. Many towplanes are NOT taildraggers (Pawnee / Super Cub), which require a minimum number of tailwheel hours experience for insurance coverage. I use a tricycle gear Cessna 150 with 180 HP Lycoming (and a climb prop) and a 1958 Cessna 182A for towing at "Marfa Gliders" soaring center in far west Texas, near the Davis Mountains and Big Bend National Park.

Most glider clubs and soaring schools (about 150 around the USA) need more towpilots. There is a book specifically written about flying the towplane called the "TOWPILOT MANUAL". $12 from www.bobwander.com

To find all of the soaring sites (clubs and schools in the USA, go to www.ssa.org Click on the "Where To Fly" map, then on your state. If I got a call from someone offering to tow at my site, I would always welcome the offer. (Special thanks to Dave Taylor who helped me get started at Marfa!)

For a commercial soaring operation (rides and instruction) the insurance company usually requires a Commercial Pilot in the towplane, although the FAA allows Private Pilots to fly the towplane, if not compensated. The FAA has excluded "building flight time" from this compensation for towing gliders.

Some insurance companies may offer lower premiums to a pilot who upgrades to Commercial. Check with your broker to see if your non-owner / renter premiums will be lower with an upgrade to your pilot certificate. Also keep them informed of your total logged hours / PIC hours as there may be a point, such as 200 hours, for a lower premium. Again, check with your broker, and shop around each year before renewing your non-owner / renter pilot policy. Pilots should have this coverage if you fly other people's aircraft, and have any assets you want to protect in case of an incident leading to a lawsuit. But that's another story.

Burt
Marfa, Texas

"We're not flying the mail here" --- a quote from my father, Fritz Compton, when he was trying to get me to slow down and not rush on a preflight --- about 40 years ago. Tony keeps this quote alive --- thanks.

 

[CJones]

Would a commercial certificate be adviseable if one simply wants to increase his precision and expertise in command of an aircraft? I've been reviewing my ASA Visualized Flight Maneuvers Handbook, and I think learning eights on pilons, crossed-control stalls, chandelles, lazy eights, etc. would be challenging but beneficial to overall expertise and safety.

I've just recently started actively working on my CP (with Tony as a matter of fact). I have come to the realization that the IR forces you to command the plane to do what you want in reference to the instruments. The CP forces you to command the plane to do what you want in reference to the outside world. The maneuvers aren't "difficult", but after going through the IR training where your entire focus was "make the numbers work", now I am re-learning to keep my head outside the plane and become more 'one' with the aircraft in regards to the maneuvers.

For instance: We were doing X-wind practice with a fairly stiff (10-15kt) x-wind component. I was landing within 1-2' of being centered on the runway centerline. Tony kept harping on me "We're going to do this until you STAY on the centerline". I finally got centered perfectly on the centerline on landing, but I lost it as I cleaned up and added power for t-n-g. He said "Let's go do it again, and MAKE the plane stay where you want it!" We went back around, straddled the centerline, and my feet were working to keep the stubby/lightweight RV on the centerline as I added power for t/o. As we were climbing out Tony remarked, "THAT is a commercial pilot landing and takeoff." *DING* I get it now!

Overall, I think the CP training is/will make me a better pilot overall. And if I can squeeze some money out of it later on, that's just icing on the cake.

 

[nddons]

I've just recently started actively working on my CP (with Tony as a matter of fact). I have come to the realization that the IR forces you to command the plane to do what you want in reference to the instruments. The CP forces you to command the plane to do what you want in reference to the outside world. The maneuvers aren't "difficult", but after going through the IR training where your entire focus was "make the numbers work", now I am re-learning to keep my head outside the plane and become more 'one' with the aircraft in regards to the maneuvers.

I know a woman who just received her IR 6 months ago, and is now starting on her commercial. She is mentoring me in my IR training. She said that she is actually going through a transition to begin looking outside again, vs. being focused on the six-pack for so long. That's an interesting observation.