What air plane would you need to make this direct route?

GRG55 said:
I used to think the exact same thing.

But some PoAers pointed me to a couple of sources with actual statistics (yes, I understand that facts can be heresy, worthy of permanent excommunication, in certain situations around these parts ;) ).

One of these links might be a worthwhile re-read:
http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

The other is some postings by an PoAer named Ken Ibold, who has done quite a few (more than 2 dozen iirc) crossings to the Bahamas alone. He's written some articles for aviation publications and some postings on this forum. Best to use a search engine to track those down.

None of this would convince me to go direct over water when it wasn't necessary (as it isn't in the routing on this thread). It is riskier. But not so much as I used to believe.
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I doubt the guy that did all those crossings would cross like that just to save 45min. Calculated risk.
 
James331 said:
I doubt the guy that did all those crossings would cross like that just to save 45min. Calculated risk.
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The more I think about it the more it seems better to just take the long route, stop at DTS (good practice anyway) and keep on trucking.
 
midcap said:
dunker training....most of my friends work offshore and they all had to go through it. they didn't like it either.lol
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Yeah, I've always done well with water sports and water training events in the Marines but I'm not sure about the dunker deal.

Former flight student of mine in the Army told me a funny story about his dunker experience. They were doing the cylinder, blind folded with maybe half a dozen pilots. He got hung up and disoriented on the way out. He started panicking and literally started drowning. Finally, after being down for a long time they lifted the cylinder out of the water. He's coughing up water and takes his blindfold off. There's another dude next to him with his harness snagged on his chair, upside down, still blindfolded and gagging. He was laughing while telling the story but I imagine it was a pretty horrible experience at the time. :(
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, I've always done well with water sports and water training events in the Marines but I'm not sure about the dunker deal.

Former flight student of mine in the Army told me a funny story about his dunker experience. They were doing the cylinder, blind folded with maybe half a dozen pilots. He got hung up and disoriented on the way out. He started panicking and literally started drowning. Finally, after being down for a long time they lifted the cylinder out of the water. He's coughing up water and takes his blindfold off. There's another dude next to him with his harness snagged on his chair, upside down, still blindfolded and gagging. He was laughing while telling the story but I imagine it was a pretty horrible experience at the time. :(
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geeze.....that sounds horrible...
 
GRG55 said:
I used to think the exact same thing.

But some PoAers pointed me to a couple of sources with actual statistics (yes, I understand that facts can be heresy, worthy of permanent excommunication, in certain situations around these parts ;) ).

One of these links might be a worthwhile re-read:
http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

The other is some postings by an PoAer named Ken Ibold, who has done quite a few (more than 2 dozen iirc) crossings to the Bahamas alone. He's written some articles for aviation publications and some postings on this forum. Best to use a search engine to track those down.

None of this would convince me to go direct over water when it wasn't necessary (as it isn't in the routing on this thread). It is riskier. But not so much as I used to believe.
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I have been to that link before and I've also read Ken's research. It's all good stuff and I'm glad you posted it! The OP should take a look. The data sets are limited and I understand not wanting to get too much data to crunch, but to simply pick a few years and say- "Hey it doesn't look that bad!" doesn't work for me.

There is a lot of random crap involved in something like a ditching. A little bit of chaos is involved and that's way too high for me to calculate. No one gets to practice ditching. Everybody that does it, does it for the very first time and the stakes are high. I shudder to think what would have happened if my first CFI had just described how to land a plane and read me the statistics and then soloed me!

My take away from reading this kind of thing isn't so much "Don't worry, you'll be fine." as it, it's nasty and to be taken seriously. Avoid it if you can, but sometimes in some circumstances it is your best option and not to view it as an absolute death sentence. There are times when ditching is your best option even when there is land nearby.

The other thing is be prepared if you do fly over long stretches of water. Inflatable vests, rafts, PLBs and maybe even those strobe things you can carry. I have also equipped my plane with a 406 ELT because the more accurate your location is to responders the better. With the old 121.5 ELTs, rescue planes would fly around for days and maybe never see you.
 
midcap said:
dunker training....most of my friends work offshore and they all had to go through it. they didn't like it either.lol
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I'm pretty sure there are places that offer that to general public. I have read about GA pilots taking those courses if you want to pay. I don't know who or where, but I'm pretty sure it's available if you have money and the desire.
 
Dav8or said:
I have been to that link before and I've also read Ken's research. It's all good stuff and I'm glad you posted it! The OP should take a look. The data sets are limited and I understand not wanting to get too much data to crunch, but to simply pick a few years and say- "Hey it doesn't look that bad!" doesn't work for me.

There is a lot of random crap involved in something like a ditching. A little bit of chaos is involved and that's way too high for me to calculate. No one gets to practice ditching. Everybody that does it, does it for the very first time and the stakes are high. I shudder to think what would have happened if my first CFI had just described how to land a plane and read me the statistics and then soloed me!

My take away from reading this kind of thing isn't so much "Don't worry, you'll be fine." as it, it's nasty and to be taken seriously. Avoid it if you can, but sometimes in some circumstances it is your best option and not to view it as an absolute death sentence. There are times when ditching is your best option even when there is land nearby.

The other thing is be prepared if you do fly over long stretches of water. Inflatable vests, rafts, PLBs and maybe even those strobe things you can carry. I have also equipped my plane with a 406 ELT because the more accurate your location is to responders the better. With the old 121.5 ELTs, rescue planes would fly around for days and maybe never see you.
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Offshore ditch bags for fishing normally include water proof VHF, EPIRB, hand held GPS.

Then you have your life vest, life raft and food and water supply.

Once that EPIRB goes off and you are in the GOM...they will find you.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm pretty sure there are places that offer that to general public. I have read about GA pilots taking those courses if you want to pay. I don't know who or where, but I'm pretty sure it's available if you have money and the desire.
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I would like to do that....I need to see how much it costs.


I always wanted to get a spare air in case I had to ditch in the water and I needed a few seconds to get out the plane.
 
It's a bit different between choppers and fixed gear FW aircraft, or float planes, in many of the fixed gear SEL or float ops cases one of the big areas where folks die is getting out of the plane, not bashing their brain buckets, or drowning.

I've heard it feels like you flip almost before you even touch, and it's VERY violent, much more so than a slow flip in a chopper.
 
James331 said:
It's a bit different between choppers and fixed gear FW aircraft, or float planes, in many of the fixed gear SEL or float ops cases one of the big areas where folks die is getting out of the plane, not bashing their brain buckets, or drowning.

I've heard it feels like you flip almost before you even touch, and it's VERY violent, much more so than a slow flip in a chopper.
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As in they get stuck in the plane?
 
Or you don't have internal reel belts (like bass) and you eat your yoke/panel, fade to black.
 
Dav8or said:
Pretty good route, but I wonder if there is much benefit of flying down to CAVIS? It takes you down the coast for sure, but you'll within glide distance of the Everglades and I'm not sure that landing in there is any safer than the open ocean. Maybe worse. Maybe some Florida locals could enlighten us. Is there any value in flying close to the Everglades?
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Alligators do not attack a "healthy" adult, so it's a bit overblown, but you still wouldn't want to land there: getting out of the swamp, injured, could be a problematic.
 
teejayevans said:
Alligators do not attack a "healthy" adult, so it's a bit overblown, but you still wouldn't want to land there: getting out of the swamp, injured, could be a problematic.
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See why Gators become a concern when you land in the swamp.
 
teejayevans said:
Alligators do not attack a "healthy" adult, so it's a bit overblown, but you still wouldn't want to land there: getting out of the swamp, injured, could be a problematic.
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Might not be a healthy adult after landing in a swamp and getting the crap beat out of you and semi drown in dirty water.
 
Sorry, my Arrow won't make it. I'm taking the coastline.
 
midcap said:
But you need to watch out for the triangle there....:eek:
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The first time I went island hoping down to Puerto Rico I was flying a C401 (route: KFPR, MBPV, TJSJ). I made it half way from Provo to San Juan when it dawned on me for the first time that I was in the middle of the triangle, I was young and dumb(er). At that point it's crazy how you can hear and feel every cylinder fire on each engine (seemingly) and notice every needle flutter.
 
teejayevans said:
Alligators do not attack a "healthy" adult, so it's a bit overblown, but you still wouldn't want to land there: getting out of the swamp, injured, could be a problematic.
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I am not sure whether in recent florida history any pilot who had to put down in the everglades has been attacked by an alligator.
A good number of pilots have drowned, some of them close to shore.
 
Dav8or said:
...PLBs and maybe even those strobe things you can carry. I have also equipped my plane with a 406 ELT because the more accurate your location is to responders the better. With the old 121.5 ELTs, rescue planes would fly around for days and maybe never see you.
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The only problem with the ELT thing is they don't work well once they go under.

I carry this guy in the plane, it's a EPIRB, it's designed to float in the open sea, mostly used for ships, transmits a 406 signal and has built in GPS which it sends along with its ID, is registered with my info and my planes info, best option I've found for water ops.

image.jpg
 
Regarding dunk training...story from guy at work, retired career Marine who started in Vietnam era:

He said the particular instructors he had for the dunk training (in what he described as "an old fuselage that they repeatedly dropped into a pool...with us in it") were very nit-picky. Had to unstrap blindfolded, follow some very specific sequence of egress, etc. etc or they made everyone do it again and again. He said he got to where it was like a joke it became so mechanical.

He said once boot camp/training was over, they fly a big plane to whatever island, and from there he was immediately stuck onto a very similar helicopter to the fuselage he'd trained in. 10 minutes later they're in the water. He said he did his mechanical motions, got out, swam up and only after listening to the shouting of other folks in the water did he realize it wasn't a drill. He said at 18-19yr's old, all he thought when they started yelling about ditching in the water prior to touching down was "great...MORE training...jeez they take this particular drill seriously".
 
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