Western USA High Country Trip in a Cherokee 140

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Justin Springer

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pepper4brunch
Hoping someone can help me with this or point me in the right direction. I'm from north of the border in Vancouver, Canada. I am planning a multi day trip to build PIC time.

A bit of background, I did flight training at a college program in Ontario(Just north of Michigan). I currently work at an airline flying all over Western Canada, Washington and Oregon. I have about 1700 hours, almost all of that in a 2 crew airline environment.

The aircraft for the trip is a 1966 PA-28-140 with the 160HP STC. I've flown about 30 hours in the aircraft. There will be 2 of us and our limited gear on the trip, mostly just lightweight camping stuff (maybe 70lbs total).

The original plan before I started looking in detail was to depart the Vancouver area on May 23rd and fly to the West Yellowstone area on day 1. Stopping for fuel and customs in Kalispell,Montana KGPI. Plan to stay the night somewhere in Western Wyoming/Eastern Idaho.

Day 2 down to Moab area for the night.

Day 3 to Sedona via Grand Canyon tour.

Day 4 across to either Catalina Island or more North to somewhere along the coast.

Day 5 up to somewhere on the Oregon Coast maybe North Bend KOTH.

Day 6 North back to Vancouver.

Upon further inspection, I am concerned about Density Altitude. If any Cherokee guys could shed some light into takeoff and climb performance at high DA's. I was thinking of setting a limit at 8000' DA/5000' Asphalt only runways. I figure that's a decent safety margin; however, at the end of May I just don't know if that is going to work. I do not have much experience with underpowered airplanes in high density altitude environments. I do have some experience with Mountainous terrain living in BC and flying 172's around the high country of Southeast Alaska.

I think I may be asking too much of the airplane and biting off a little more than I can chew here. It would be a glorious trip though and possibly with the right preparation is doable.

My other option is scrap all that and stay along the coast to Mexico and back up. Would be much less stressful but slightly less glorious as the first option.

Last note is I do not have ADS-B. I believe that means I have to stay out of Class C and 30 nm outside of B airports and out of high level airspace but please correct me if I'm wrong there.

If anyone has any suggestions or advice please let me know!

Thank You
 
1) Always fly early in the morning.
2) Most of the western US has fairly/very good AWOS in the Rocky Mtn areas, and cameras, too!
3) Be prepared to delay/re-route due to TStorms in May/June timeframe
4) I fly a 180 Cherokee, and make sure I fly mornings. Things get really bumpy by lunch time.
5) Have fun!
 
I had to refresh my memory about non-adsb equipped a/c, but the limitation is 10K feet msl or within 2500agl. While I (a mostly flat-lander from the northeast) did a lot of planning for a not dissimilar National Park multi destination trip in my Archer(180hp) for May or Sept-October, I never flew it because of rental car concerns. There were however several good options of longer airports to minimize high DA concerns, including MOAB that I concluded as doable.( The performance tables were marginally off the charts for the likely DAs so certain assumptions were made using them) However, having to avoid class B,C,D airspace(with all the good service options), and not being able to fly higher than 10K or higher than 2.5K AGL, which could be done with the right routing, makes me uncomfortable. Others very familiar with the routings might not have as much trepidation. As has been emphasized to me, the winds at altitude over the mountains need to be below 20kts and keeping 10-20% below MGW would be desirable, and traveling early to minimize DA.
 
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Two of us flew a 1966 Cherokee 140(150hp) to AK, started in MS. Your trip is doable as long as you don’t try to make it into a Maule. It’s a fun trip, light load the fuel, more stops. I’m an advocate of a calibrated ‘fuel-straw’ should you be able. I’d rather run one side near dry, keep 10 gallons in the other side for landing.

You need to keep your route & airports viable, longer paved runways, around high terrain, not over. No need for narrow passes.
I’d get Customs at the 1st airport possible once crossing the border, more freedom thereafter. Whatever you plan, keep max flexibility, no need to be anywhere.
 
I assume we’re talking all pavement here? If so, you’ll be fine. You’ll probably have then highest DAs near the Grand Canyon if you land there, or at Yellowstone, so just make sure you’re departing those areas (departing particular) in the morning in coolish air and no wind. You’ll be pretty limited on performance, but I wouldn’t be stressing it.

Don’t forget to lean for takeoff.
 
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I would take the trip but would be very flexible and not have a scheduled plan. Like others have said, fly in the mornings and avoid high winds. And, I would get comfortable with the leaning procedures early in the trip, say at altitude practicing takeoff power settings and climb speeds before experiencing it on the first high altitude takeoff. And of course maneuverability dismisses too. Several notable accidents the past few years have occurred to airline pilots that take light GA aircraft into mountainous terrain expecting better performance, so your attitude approaching this is great. I’ve flown the Cherokee 140 with 160 hp conversion and it was fine at gross on hot summer days but with reasonable density altitude. If I were doing that like you plan I’d lighten up on some on the first few takeoffs to measure performance. The less fuel, shorter legs mentioned earlier is a good idea.
 
You have some mountainous terrain north of Vancouver. Have you thought about taking a lesson or at least discussing your trip with an instructor at a flight school in the area? Offhand I'm thinking Glacier Air at CYSE up in Squamish. I flew with them on a vacation trip up there and was very impressed with the operation. But I'm sure the schools in the immediate Vancouver area which can help.
 
Justin Springer said:
Hoping someone can help me with this or point me in the right direction. I'm from north of the border in Vancouver, Canada. I am planning a multi day trip to build PIC time.

A bit of background, I did flight training at a college program in Ontario(Just north of Michigan). I currently work at an airline flying all over Western Canada, Washington and Oregon. I have about 1700 hours, almost all of that in a 2 crew airline environment.

The aircraft for the trip is a 1966 PA-28-140 with the 160HP STC. I've flown about 30 hours in the aircraft. There will be 2 of us and our limited gear on the trip, mostly just lightweight camping stuff (maybe 70lbs total).

The original plan before I started looking in detail was to depart the Vancouver area on May 23rd and fly to the West Yellowstone area on day 1. Stopping for fuel and customs in Kalispell,Montana KGPI. Plan to stay the night somewhere in Western Wyoming/Eastern Idaho.

Day 2 down to Moab area for the night.

Day 3 to Sedona via Grand Canyon tour.

Day 4 across to either Catalina Island or more North to somewhere along the coast.

Day 5 up to somewhere on the Oregon Coast maybe North Bend KOTH.

Day 6 North back to Vancouver.

Upon further inspection, I am concerned about Density Altitude. If any Cherokee guys could shed some light into takeoff and climb performance at high DA's. I was thinking of setting a limit at 8000' DA/5000' Asphalt only runways. I figure that's a decent safety margin; however, at the end of May I just don't know if that is going to work. I do not have much experience with underpowered airplanes in high density altitude environments. I do have some experience with Mountainous terrain living in BC and flying 172's around the high country of Southeast Alaska.

I think I may be asking too much of the airplane and biting off a little more than I can chew here. It would be a glorious trip though and possibly with the right preparation is doable.

My other option is scrap all that and stay along the coast to Mexico and back up. Would be much less stressful but slightly less glorious as the first option.

Last note is I do not have ADS-B. I believe that means I have to stay out of Class C and 30 nm outside of B airports and out of high level airspace but please correct me if I'm wrong there.

If anyone has any suggestions or advice please let me know!

Thank You
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It should be doable. I have flown a cherokee 180 all over the mountains without any problem. I also flew a cessna 150, which was more difficult, but not impossible. If you leave early in the morning, and land before noon, you shouldn't have much problems. Also, you may want to keep to long paved runways instead of backcountry strips.
 
I just got back from a trip to the US with my Cherokee, exact same model as yours. 1966 with the 160 hp stc. We went to southern states. On the way back, we were weather delayed in Omaha. I looked at the map and thought, hmm weather is bad up north but fine to the west, let’s visit Mt. Rushmore. Rapid City is at an elevation of over 3,000 feet. I’ve only flown the Cherokee in bitter cold weather or from near sea level elevations where I would see 1000 fpm or more routinely. The day we left Rapid City it was nearly 20C when we departed and we were right at max weight. The climb felt sluggish but when I looked down at the VSI, it showed 600 fpm. My previous two planes hit 600 fpm on a good day, maybe lol. You’ll be fine. Just use common sense in regards to runway length and time of day for your takeoffs.
 
Rule of thumb in high altitudes....make sure your total weight is AT LEAST 10% below your max gross.
If your 140 max is 2200, then make sure you don't go over 2200-220 or 1980 #.
 
Be very familiar with your density altitude limitations here in the high desert.
 
When my wife & I went out west in our Archer in October a few years ago, we had to do a few circling climbs to get up to altitude, like when we departed KGCN to head over the canyon. Like others have said, be sure to lean as needed and fly early.
 
I did it in my Cessna 140 w 85hp… as others have noted: lean for take off! That can make an important difference! Definitely yes on mornings tho we slogged over Wyoming in the afternoon- the bumps were exhausting.

it’s really a time to remember the bare bone basics of “fly the plane”! I found getting into ground effect and staying put there helped a lot! Their runways tend to be very long out there and I’d fly a good ways down the runway gaining some air speed made her much more confident in the climb.

My old bird did rather ok w an 8700 DA take off, though a gentle circling climb was required but just a bit more than that: 9400 was not doable. I got airborn and could tell she didn’t want to be there… I made a broad gentle 180, winds were light and landed w a slight tailwind to be on terra firma again! I stayed the night and left at daybreak.

be flexible, fly the plane, watch the airspeed on climb out especially as you may be surprised how gently ya need to coax her up.
 
Thank You all for your responses! Plans have and are actively changing. I'm just not comfortable doing this trip with the 140, not the right plane for it.

I am now hoping for suggestions for airfields to visit throughout the West Coast. Washington, Oregon, Northern California. Looking for camping friendly places. Any suggestions welcome.

Plan is to stick closer to the coast and stay out of high country.
 
Justin Springer said:
Thank You all for your responses! Plans have and are actively changing. I'm just not comfortable doing this trip with the 140, not the right plane for it.

I am now hoping for suggestions for airfields to visit throughout the West Coast. Washington, Oregon, Northern California. Looking for camping friendly places. Any suggestions welcome.

Plan is to stick closer to the coast and stay out of high country.
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In Oregon, Bend/central cascades are great. Sisters airstrip is close to the PCT at Santiam Pass- great scenery and hiking. sun River also.
In NoCal, if flexible re weather, and careful, shelter cove is gorgeous. Lost cost is amazing. Further S, Ocean Ridge or Sea Ranch. Latter is private, but readily grant permission.
 
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