Wearing chute for aerobatic training

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WannFly, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    So I have been wondering .... if you go for aerobatic training, heck even spin training ( not the required CFI one, ) you are required to wear a chute. Say you are out of control, something really bad has happened, you spinning down .... in reality, can you actually open the door, get yourself out, get stable belly to earth position and deploy? I would think in a spinning aircraft the centrifugal force would keep you inside and act against you when trying to get the door open...not hit any strut .... seems like an impossible task.

    Thoughts ?
     
  2. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Spinning is not generally a high G condition. A spiral is, and increasingly so until some part departs.

    Just a thought.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
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  3. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I hear a lot about the impossibility of egress when out of control. I know a test pilot who has jumped out of a light twin in an unrecoverable spin and a light single that shed major parts during a test (same guy). I have done ground egress drills in every airplane I've flown with a chute to at least give myself a chance. I'd rather have a chute and not need it than not have it and wish I did.

    Nauga,
    duck, shuck, and huck
     
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  4. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Search the NTSB data base - you will find cases of people opening doors and jumping out apparently without too much difficulty.
    You will also find cases where someone wearing a 'chute spun into the ground having apparently not tried to get out.
    Mostly what you will find is people showing off in a 172 or similar without a 'chute.

    Trying to get the "stable belly" position from a low altitude without training and experience seems like a good way to lawn dart. Just get out and pull.
     
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  5. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think you've been influenced too much by, "I'm pinned forward Goose!" haha. In reality in most airplanes you are sitting on or very close to the axis of rotation during spins and feel little if any force. It doesn't cause undo difficulty getting out, but spins in aerobatic aircraft are not the likely emergency in which you will initiate the bailout procedure.
     
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  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’ve thought about the same thing. When I did spin training in the Super Decathlon, we briefed how to evacuate the airplane, which position to place ourselves in during free fall and how to properly pull the D ring in the event of emergency.

    The nice thing about the Decathlon, is the door will jettison by the release of a cable. So, off comes the door, release the five-point harness and roll out of the airplane to the right in a diving motion and then stabilize yourself as though you were about to do a bellyflop. It all sounds a lot easier when discussing it on the ground than I imagine it would be trying to do for the very first time in a real emergency situation! :)

    The reaction time to complete would have to be pretty fast, due to the amount of altitude that is lost during a developed spin. In reality, each variable would have to be just right in order for it work.
     
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  7. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I was taught to enter aerobatics high enough to give yourself sufficient time to jump out if the recovery didn't go as planned, with some margin for a less-than-perfect egress. We usually (should be always) brief a hard deck altitude with this in mind, if still out of control by this altitude, abandon recovery and bail.

    Nauga,
    and his conditional response
     
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  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, I was just saying if something abnormal occurred while doing spin training, you’d have a very limited amount of time to vacate the airplane before it would be too late.

    We did our aerobatics around 6,000ft which was just over 5,000AGL. In that case, we would’ve had sufficient altitude to bail even though it still would have to be quick - but not so much if you’re rapidly spinning toward the ground with the VVI pegged! Of course, not very likely, but still the ‘what-if scenario’.
     
  9. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I believe there are several aerobatic pilots who are members of the Caterpillar Club.
     
  10. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    What I'm suggesting is to make sure the 'limited' time you have available is sufficient to get out. If you don't have time to get out in the event of something abnormal, then you're either starting too low or staying with it too long. That's part of my approach to risk management in aerobatics and testing, YMMV.

    Nauga,
    who knows when to go.
     
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  11. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Agree.
     
  12. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Kinda brings to mind a T-Shirt the EOD guys sold during Navy Relief fund raise. Graphic of a guy running with flames and explosion behind him. Text read EOD tech, if you see me running try to keep up.
     
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  13. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Or the ALCM guys - "If you see me running...it's too late."

    Nauga,
    who doesn't like that kind of mushroom
     
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  14. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pattern Altitude

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    Read this:

    https://pilot-protection-services.a.../01/parachutes-not-required-for-spin-training

    In short: All spin training with a CFI is exempt from the parachute requirement, regardless of which rating you are working toward.

    Also, any plane approved for intentional spins should recover from them so easily that a parachute is a hat on a hat.

    As far as ease of getting out of the plane, I suggest flying a plane that’s simply easier to get out of, like a Great Lakes. As a bonus, if you throw up while flying an open-cockpit plane inverted, you (and your instructor) won’t take a vomit shower when you roll upright.
     
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  15. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    Your post reminded me of the deck film of fire and explosions on the USS Forrestal in 1967. An unsafed missile fired across the deck into parked A-4s, causing a massive fire. A damage control team led by a veteran CPO was dousing a Korean War leftover 1,000 lb bomb that had fallen into the flaming deck with handheld Purple K extinguishers when it exploded, killing almost the entire team and a dozen other crewmen.

    They were just several of the 137 sailors and aviators that died in the conflagration.. There were a lot of heroic actions by brave young men that day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  16. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Well the instructor at Stanton said for required training (CFI) chute isn’t required, anything else they would require both to wear chutes. I guess they do barre rolls and loops too.

    Interesting read, archer can be banked more than 60 degrees under utility category .... not that I am doing it anytime soon but from this interpretation, one needs to wear a chute if he intends on doing it even in an archer. Though I do not see the point, egress from there will very interesting in the air ....
     
  17. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    More than a few Pitts (which are designed to spin) have been spun into the ground.

    Something like a 172 which, as I understand it, doesn't spin fer **** and will recover even if you shove the yoke forward first would be a whole nuther story.
     
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  18. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pattern Altitude

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    Good point, although I wonder if any of those Pitts were doing a spin lesson or if they were all trying to set a record for spin revolutions. I should have limited my remark to planes in which spins are approved and spin training is commonly done. A Great Lakes will recover from a spin if you just let go of the controls long enough to even look for the harness release. :)
     
  19. iamtheari

    iamtheari Pattern Altitude

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    A lot of people don’t know about this interpretation and believe the more conservative reading is correct. And any instructor, school, or insurance company is free to require things that the FAA does not, such as a parachute for spin training. But regardless, you’re wasting your time if you take a full lesson in an aerobatic plane and spins are the only maneuver you learn. :)
     
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  20. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Very true, but of course this is because the pilots in all cases continued to hold pro-spin controls. A Pitts does only what you ask of it. It both spins and recovers very easily.
     
  21. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    Negative on both counts. The vast majority of Pitts that spin into the ground are solo pilots losing control doing aerobatics with insufficient altitude for their skill level. There have also been a number of accidents where the spin transitioned from upright to inverted (called a "crossover") without the pilot being aware, and continuing to hold pro-spin inputs into the ground.

    So will a Pitts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  22. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    3393RP thank you for reminding us of the bravery shown those men and if women had been present they would have performed just as well or better.

    The unspoken and seldom discussed lesson from this event is what caused this horrible event. According to an instructor at a US Navy class on how to perform and document maintenance, the root cause was excessive can do by a yellow shirt. (Flight deck personnel wear color coded shirts. Yellow is for people who launch, recover, and control aircraft on the flight deck.)

    Launch prep was underway and a crew assigned to one of the aircraft discovered the start cart's air hose was damaged. Instead of taking the time to correctly repair the broken hose or get another cart, an enterprising yellow shirt cut off the broken end and figured out a way to hook up the cart. Unfortunately, with the now too short hose resulted in the cart being positioned too close to the aircraft. Exhaust from the cart blew onto a pod of live rockets. One or more of the rounds cooked off and we know what happened.

    Stop and think about this for a minute, absorb the lesson. To make sure the lesson is clear here goes:
    1-When you are tempted to "save time" by short cutting procedure DON'T
    2-The reason(s) for not doing things properly are not always clear
    3-No matter what your intent was you thoughts and actions will be judged by what happens
    4-You may push things with no adverse outcomes 999 times in a row. The 1,000 time can be a complete, unmitigated disaster
     
  23. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You begin to realize just how docile 172’s are when you attempt to put them into a spin, that is for sure. 152’s on the other hand will roll over pretty easily if the right control inputs are applied.

    I felt most comfortable in the 8KCAB, I’ll tell you that much.
     
  24. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    The Forrestal fire's root cause was a Zuni rocket that fired due to an electrical surge when the pilot switched from external power to onboard power. The rocket should have been safetied until the launch but the pin was missing (or had been removed prematurely).
     
  25. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Many folks who wear those don’t do any jump training (AFF or even old school static line) to their first jump at a DZ with a instructor, this boggles my mind.

    Like conceal carrying a pistol and never ever even firing a single practice round, just doesn’t seem like a good move.
     
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  26. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    So spins strictly for entertainment purposes while solo now require a parachute? Having a CFI won't do unless the purpose of the flight is training for a certificate or rating, per
    §91.307...
     
  27. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well ya see aerodynamic wise the plane responds different if it’s being used toward a certificate :goofy:
     
  28. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, there is no chute requirement when flying solo, regardless of what kind of maneuvering you're doing. If you're doing spins with your buddy, then the FAA requires chutes since spins definitely put the airplane beyond the specified pitch and bank limitations associated with the chute requirement.
     
  29. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Witmo, thank you for the update/correction.
     
  30. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Hit send too early add to above: The fact that the Zuni was not safed still illustrates what happens when we take short cuts or do not pay attention.
     
  31. djpacro

    djpacro Pre-Flight

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    I think you will find that just letting go of the controls will generally not recover it from a fully developed spin. Centralising controls, yes and the Beggs-Mueller technique ... except for at least one Experimental biplane variant with Pitts in the name which happily keeps spinning ....

    with cg per Utility Category. NASA encountered unrecoverable spins around the Normal Category aft cg.
     
  32. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Cleared for Takeoff

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    Who was the test pilot that bailed from the Bo (I think Bo) in the 80s doing STC to tank tests or some such?
    There is bad VHS quality cideo.
    He tried a few inputs, nothing then proceeded to climb the eff out while that thing spun in for another 2 or 3 minutes.

    That's having enough time and deciding to bail
     
  33. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    exactly. something really bad has just happened, you are spinning/ spiraling towards mother earth. by some miracle you keep yourself calm, get the heck out and not hit anything, then for the first time in your life you pull the D ring in a stable position (even worst things happen when you try to deploy and you arent in a stable position)... sounds like a whole lot of right things needs to happen at the right time to make use of that chute.
     
  34. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And to think you are going to be able to get stabilized belly to earth on your very first jump, and not even on a controlled jump with a instructor, but after having to jump from your own plane because it’s going to crash.

    Here’s a good litmus test, go call up some drop zones and tell them you have your own rig, have never jumped before and would like to jump, without a instructor or even a first jump ground school, on your own rig, don’t even think Lodi would be down for that lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  35. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    Emergency parachutes do not require a stable arch, and are not designed to open at those sorts of speeds.

    Instead, the instructions for their use is quite simple: As soon as you are clear of the aircraft deploy the 'chute. They are designed to open quickly at low airspeeds. A skydiving rig is designed to open gradually at high airspeeds. Waiting until you have achieved a stable arch and then opening an emergency parachute is likely to cause severe injury.

    If you wear a parachute, you should learn the parachute landing fall.



    And yes, hang glider pilots do carry an emergency parachute, but we don't cut away from the glider.
     
  36. David

    David Pre-takeoff checklist

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    One thing I was told that makes a lot of sense to me is to always put your chute on before you get in the plane and take it off after you get out of the plane. Lots of folks leave the chute in the plane and just buckle it up when they do their seat harness. You may find that getting out with a chute on, even on the ground, isn't that easy in some aircraft. The back seat of a citabria comes to mind. For the record, I never actually needed to use a chute - thank goodness!!!
     
  37. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He really should have kept more emphasis on KEEPING YOUR KNEES BENT.

    Anywho

    Also you’re jumping static line from your own plane? Doubt it
    How often to you practice holding the handle and making a smooth and strong pull? When are you going to grab the handle? How many seconds from the plane? How long does it take to get unstable? Where are you looking when you reach for the handle? If you had to think about any of that, no buneo

    And as you’re fumbling trying to find the d ring, doubt you’re going to end up stable, go pull on your back, or while spinning and see what happens.

    Yeah pulling is the most important part, but what you’re saying is worse than saying it’s a good idea to conceal carry having never shot a single round, I mean just point at the bad thing and pull the trigger till it stops going bang, what’s the worse that could happen?

    A emergency rig is even worse, as for one just having it or the sight of it doesn’t help anything other than your illusion of safety, and more over if you can afford the rig, a aerobatic plane and the training that goes along with it, you not only have zero excuse for training on how to use your rig money wise, but as you probably were smart enough to get training on how to use the aerobatic plane, you really should know better.

    Again find me a drop zone that will let you do a hop n’ pop with your rig with ZERO training, actually say you watched a sub 110 second YouTube video on the PLF and you’re good to go!

    https://www.dropzone.com/dropzones/


    Personally if someone I cared about wanted to get into aerobatics and needed a rig, I’d have them get their A license and a rig packed with a ram air reserve, if they couldn’t devote enough time or money for that, well maybe it’s just not the right time for them yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  38. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Gentleman's acro in a prop job shouldn't encounter wing failure or control jamming to any greater probability than a non-acro normal/utility category airplane. I agree, chutes and manual egress (aka non ejection seat) for the uninitiated is just placebo. Pedestrians are not gonna have the presence of mind to successfully egress from an airplane whose pilot just botched a Cuban-8 on the downside and pulled the wings off somehow. Placebo.

    Here's a seasoned guy, solo, with all the time (pitch attitude and speed profile, no control compromise) and altitude in the world, and even that was sketchy. Imagine trying to get a pedestrian out during the established portion of that dive, or introduce uncommanded gyration/rolling into the equation. Goner.

     
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  39. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And unless you have been jumping out of planes and are comfy jumping from a plane, I promise you’re going to hesitate (to say the VERY least) at jumping ship
     
  40. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Agreed. Which is why in the aggregate, I think the installation of BRS is a more practical avenue for crippled acro planes with pedestrians and uninitiated pilots onboard alike. The current limit to the Cirrus chute is slow for any kind of diving portion of acro, but given that most acro 2 seaters are well lighter than that flying hotel bathtub, perhaps the limit could be faster on the light acro planes.

    Here's an S-9 or -10 (video calls is a 7, but that's not a 7) with BRS deployment. I'd personally prefer that over trying to manually bail out of an airplane with a missing wing.