Water Based Paint?

danhagan

danhagan

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danhagan
Am wondering what concerns there would be regarding a water based paint used on an aircraft (experimental)? Reduced wear? etc.
 
danhagan said:
Am wondering what concerns there would be regarding a water based paint used on an aircraft (experimental)? Reduced wear? etc.
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One of our Fly Baby crew painted his plane with water-based house paint, and is very pleased with the results. Any flaws in the paint can be fixed with a sponge and windshield-washer fluid. Applied with a roller, it's non-toxic and doesn't smell horrible.

He completed the paint job about ten years ago.
drew2.jpg

He was kind enough to write the process up:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/latex.html


Ron Wanttaja
 
The biggest issue is making sure your paint is compatible with the fabric you're using. The lower layers of the process are there to provide UV protection for the dacron as well as to make sure that the finish adheres to the fabric weave. The upper layers are a little less finicky. Once the water or solvent flashes off, it's really neither hear nor there. You can have a durable paint jobs with either water or solvent carriers.
 
flyingron said:
The biggest issue is making sure your paint is compatible with the fabric you're using. The lower layers of the process are there to provide UV protection for the dacron as well as to make sure that the finish adheres to the fabric weave. The upper layers are a little less finicky. Once the water or solvent flashes off, it's really neither hear nor there. You can have a durable paint jobs with either water or solvent carriers.
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It's on metal. Was wondering if it is less durable or rinses off in the first rain storm like the cartoons;)
 
Does water based paints rinse off your house after they've dried?
 
danhagan said:
Am wondering what concerns there would be regarding a water based paint used on an aircraft (experimental)? Reduced wear? etc.
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Water based paint isn't very specific. The only water based aircraft paint I know of close hand is Stewart System. It's very popular with Cub builders. The top coat I'm familiar with is water based but it's a urethane paint and it'll kill you just like all urethane paints can. It just doesn't use MEK or similar solvents so it doesn't smell like solvents. I have friends who've used it and like it. They tell me it definitely has a learning curve for guys used to solvent based paints. Stewart Systems also make a water based acrylic paint. I know nothing about it.

Whatever you use... read the MSDS before you start shooting it. Just because you can't smell it doesn't mean it isn't toxic or that it won't hurt you.
 
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danhagan said:
Am wondering what concerns there would be regarding a water based paint used on an aircraft (experimental)? Reduced wear? etc.
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As opposed to oil based paints, it is a CRYSTAL ***** to thin it for spraying it just enough to let it dry for longevity.

On a house, no problems. On a slick fabric finish, it is a different matter.

Thanks,

Jim
 
Almost every auto body shop here have gone to the water born urethane paint systems.

they only require that you do not get the mist in your respiratory system, a dust mask usually gets that job done.
 
weirdjim said:
As opposed to oil based paints, it is a CRYSTAL ***** to thin it for spraying it just enough to let it dry for longevity.

On a house, no problems. On a slick fabric finish, it is a different matter.

Thanks,

Jim
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Not really Jim, all you must do is wash the ceconite prior to painting, to brake the surface tension so the water born ura systems will saturate the fabric.
 
Dust mask? Seriously? Here's the Stewart System water based EcoPoly MSDS. They make it clear that breathing vapors is bad. http://www.westav.ca/pdf/EkoPoly Part B MSDS 2010.pdf

Any top coat on a fabric plane follows several under coats of a filler and UV protective layer. Which undercoatings you use are determined by the chosen top coat. Polyfiber, dope, Stewart Systems... they all use different processes. Poly Brush, Nitrate Dope, EcoFill, they all have specific procedures. So does Imron on a metal plane for that matter.

Read the MSDS for whatever you're using. You can use a charcoal cartridge mask for organic solvents. A fresh air mask is better, especially when the booth gets saturated with fog. A fresh air mask is a requirement for urethanes. Even for quick touch-ups.
 
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Stewartb said:
Dust mask? Seriously?
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Well, lessee now... Tom has been in the business since the Wrights were Seaman Duces, since Lindbergh was in kneepants, since .... oh, you get the idea.

He has painted more planes than you have flown. He (like me) is an old geezer that hasn't succumbed to MSDS that make no sense.

Yes. Dust mask. Seriously.

Jim
 
Stewartb said:
Dust mask? Seriously? Here's the Stewart System water based EcoPoly MSDS. They make it clear that breathing vapors is bad. http://www.westav.ca/pdf/EkoPoly Part B MSDS 2010.pdf
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I was going to bring this up. The biggest issue is that the vapors from the urathane systems don't typically have a strong odor. By the time you smell it you've breathed to much of it. The manufacturers all recommend more than a "dust mask."

Of course Jay Honeck has been taking hits of Imron for years and it hasn't affected him at all :goofy:
 
A friend of mine used the water based paint Stewart systems to paint his brand new (never painted) RV-12. He is a very experienced painter and followed directions to the letter, calling the company several times to get tips. The paint job turned out so bad he had to strip the entire plane and start over. Fish eyes everywhere, paint too heavy, sagging, runs.

Needless to say he is not a fan.

PM me and I will give you his name and phone number.
 
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Geico266 said:
A friend of mine used the water based paint Stewart systems to paint his brand new (never painted) RV-12. He is a very experienced painter and followed directions to the letter, calling the company several times to get tips. The paint job turned out so bad he had to strip the entire plane and start over. Fish eyes everywhere, paint too heavy, sagging, runs.

Needless to say he is not a fan.

PM me and I will give you his name and phone number.
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Being a very experience painter is why he failed.

you can not apply heavy coat and get that wet look.

It requires a fine mist at a very high pressure to atomize the paint and several passes to get the paint to build up.
 
I researched the water borne paint when I was going to paint my sonex. Durability didnt seem to be an issue but application was. It seems that it either goes really well or really bad. Humidity when spraying seemed to be a factor. You also had to keep a close eye on recoat times. They were very short compared to urethane based paints so you had to have a good plan of attack as to what areas you could cover before you.have to start the second coat.

Keith
 
kmacht said:
I researched the water borne paint when I was going to paint my sonex. Durability didnt seem to be an issue but application was. It seems that it either goes really well or really bad. Humidity when spraying seemed to be a factor. You also had to keep a close eye on recoat times. They were very short compared to urethane based paints so you had to have a good plan of attack as to what areas you could cover before you.have to start the second coat.

Keith
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I've been following Stewart Systems for years and it is obvious that many people have great results with the top coats and others have a train wreck.

I'm guessing application techniques/methods are the differentiator and that if you follow the directions to a "T", you'll have a better experience.

The company recently introduced a new top coat to make the system more user friendly.
 
kyleb said:
I'm guessing application techniques/methods are the differentiator and that if you follow the directions to a "T", you'll have a better experience.
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I'm guessing that the application methods are the problem and that "old timey painters" that "know how to do it" are at a loss with paints that need very thin very multiple coats to do it right.

Tom is right; water based paints require VERY high gun pressures (100 psi isn't out of the question) and very thin multiple coats allowing partial drying between each coat is the secret. Precise thinning to let the spray gun have half a chance to atomize the paint is another important factor. This "no thinning necessary" on the side of water based paint cans is horsepuckey.

Thanks,

Jim


.
 
When you use the stweart'ssystem watch their vids on u-tube see what Don is using for a mask and what pressure he is using .
My HVLP system works great for the Eco-fill but not the top coats.
 
in my opinion the quickest and easiest system to do is the Airtech method. Their glue UA 55 is the strongest on the market 1qt makes 1 gallon of usable glue their primer wets the fabric in one coat,but 3 are required. The top coat is a one coat application.and it wil last 50 years. It can be repolished if needed.
it ain't cheap, but it is the quickest and best.
 
Nothing shoots and polishes like good old fashioned lacquer. I can make that stuff like glass, better than any top polyurethanes.
 
A friend of mine used the stewards system on his airplane. After a couple days of getting this stuff on his skin he began to break out in a rash. He had to stop all painting for a time and when he took it back up he was careful not to get it on his skin. He could still feel an effect from it even though he was not getting it on his skin. He also used fresh air supply.

Watch what you do and how you do it when dealing with any paints. You just never know how your body will react to it. Everyone is different, what did not bother someone else could bother you. Be careful.

Tony
 
I've sprayed all sorts of finishes both clear and pigmented. Using the appropriate solvent (which may be water) and the right viscosity and a flow additive (flotrol or penetrol depending on whether you're talking water or oil based) helps a lot.
 
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I worked in auto body for a few years, have covered a few airplanes,
Used most all the systems including Stewarts with good results.
However, I used to spend some time at Air Repair (Stearmans)
and they always used polished butyrate dope. Their explanation
to me was "you're pretty arrogant if you think you're never going
to damage one of these and butyrate is the only thing that can be
repaired so it won't show."
I thought that was really good advice.
Dave
 
Henning said:
Nothing shoots and polishes like good old fashioned lacquer. I can make that stuff like glass, better than any top polyurethanes.
Click to expand...

that's a hell of a lot of work getting lacquer to shine and you will never get that wet look
 
d.grimm said:
I worked in auto body for a few years, have covered a few airplanes,
Used most all the systems including Stewarts with good results.
However, I used to spend some time at Air Repair (Stearmans)
and they always used polished butyrate dope. Their explanation
to me was "you're pretty arrogant if you think you're never going
to damage one of these and butyrate is the only thing that can be
repaired so it won't show."
I thought that was really good advice.
Dave
Click to expand...

but it's heavy
 
d.grimm said:
I worked in auto body for a few years, have covered a few airplanes,
Used most all the systems including Stewarts with good results.
However, I used to spend some time at Air Repair (Stearmans)
and they always used polished butyrate dope. Their explanation
to me was "you're pretty arrogant if you think you're never going
to damage one of these and butyrate is the only thing that can be
repaired so it won't show."
I thought that was really good advice.
Dave
Click to expand...

Dope is the easiest coating to blend in after a repair and make look good. Poly tone is pretty good, too. Urethanes are the hardest to patch and blend. Which is exactly why a body shop paints the whole panel after a small repair. My Cub had dope with Imron trim. The trim wasn't where I'd expect rock or brush damage to occur. Your advisors gave you worthy advice!

But the OP's question is about a metal airplane. I wouldn't use any one part paint on a metal plane or metal parts of a fabric plane. I prefer catalyzed Urethanes for metal. After 15 years of outdoor Alaska parking my Cessna is a shining example of why. The circa 2000 Imron on that plane is still perfect. A friend used my paint booth to paint his Murphy Moose using base coat/clear coat. That was interesting. It turned out great and still looks good a handful of years later.
 
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Tom-D said:
that's a hell of a lot of work getting lacquer to shine and you will never get that wet look
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Oh yes I do. Yeah, it takes about 5 hours of work to produce a car show winning polish job.
 
This looks good to me.


Tony
 

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Here is another comparing two different options.
 

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Tom-D said:
When you use the stweart'ssystem watch their vids on u-tube see what Don is using for a mask and what pressure he is using .
My HVLP system works great for the Eco-fill but not the top coats.
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What HVLP system are you using?
I'm using an Accuspray model 10, with an Accuspray turbine. 0.9mm fluid and #7 air nozzel.
 
Stewartb said:
Dope is the easiest coating to blend in after a repair and make look good. Poly tone is pretty good, too. Urethanes are the hardest to patch and blend. Which is exactly why a body shop paints the whole panel after a small repair. My Cub had dope with Imron trim. The trim wasn't where I'd expect rock or brush damage to occur. Your advisors gave you worthy advice!

But the OP's question is about a metal airplane. I wouldn't use any one part paint on a metal plane or metal parts of a fabric plane. I prefer catalyzed Urethanes for metal. After 15 years of outdoor Alaska parking my Cessna is a shining example of why. The circa 2000 Imron on that plane is still perfect. A friend used my paint booth to paint his Murphy Moose using base coat/clear coat. That was interesting. It turned out great and still looks good a handful of years later.
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They paint the panel because they lack the skillset to blend within the panel for a seamless repair. I do it all the time. And on aircraft you're not going to be able to afford painting the whole panel, just for a little wing ding. So you'd best learn how to blend a repair properly.
 
bluerooster said:
They paint the panel because they lack the skillset to blend within the panel for a seamless repair. I do it all the time. And on aircraft you're not going to be able to afford painting the whole panel, just for a little wing ding. So you'd best learn how to blend a repair properly.
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Yep, blending, especially with a color match to faded paint, is an art form though.
 
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