Warrior Partnership

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by dreyna14, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    58
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    First-time poster. Found a local partnership on a PA28-151. Never owned a plane and been considering one for a couple years. I have the go-ahead from my better half and I'm planning on starting my IFR training in the next month or so. From photos, it looks like the plane is in good shape externally and was upgraded to 160hp. The panel is /U and very much dated but appears to be in decent shape and looks to be set up for basic IFR. I'm almost positive it isn't ADS-B compliant, though.

    Waiting to speak to one of the partners more and go over the partnership agreement. Buy in is ten grand and the other partners are student pilots. My questions, in no particular order, are:

    *What's the real-world cost you all are seeing for ADS-B install (if not compliant)? Should I consider this in negotiating the buy in or is this fair?
    *Would you consider partnering with individuals who are inexperienced or don't yet have their private?
    *Would this realistically save some money for my instrument ticket?
    *Should I have an instructor take a look at it to confirm IFR capability?
    *Any important questions I should ask the owners/partners that I might not have thought of?
     
  2. Datadriver

    Datadriver Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    628
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Datadriver
    No - I would not consider partners who are students. Most students never finish their private. This will leave you in a bad place
     
    Glen R, woodchucker and TCABM like this.
  3. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,421
    Location:
    New Bern, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Reno
    Concur. Everything will be great until the other owners decide that flying isn't their thing and want you to buy them out for what they have in it.
     
    Glen R and TCABM like this.
  4. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,333
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Decile advocate here. What’s the downside? He has a partner that never uses the plane. No law that forces him to buy out the partner.
     
  5. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,421
    Location:
    New Bern, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Reno
    No law indeed. But do you think that it is going to end with the other guy just walking away from his money? Where is there a good end to this?
    People are fine until money gets involved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  6. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,333
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I think jumping to the conclusion that the partner is going to damage you in some way is a bit much.
     
  7. gdwindowpane

    gdwindowpane Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Location:
    Bradford County, PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    gdwindowpane
    I would think that the Partnership Agreement may answer some of your questions and possibly ease some concerns about exit strategy if someone decides they are no longer going to fly. I read your question in regards to student pilots as stress/damage to the airplane. As a student pilot myself, I would think this would be a valid concern. I've seen some pretty "hard" landings in the rentals. I wouldn't buy an airplane that has been a trainer but that's just me. I would also ask to see the log books.
     
  8. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,421
    Location:
    New Bern, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Reno
    And I think that somebody walking away from a large investment is naïve. The guy is going to want his money back. Wouldn't you?
     
  9. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    12,531
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canis Non Grata
    Regardless of the certificate status of a partner, a well crafted partnership agreement can solve most potential or foreseeable problems.

    As to student pilot partners, my personal comfort level would be increased if they were at least at the solo cross country portion of their training. I think once someone is at that level, they will most likely complete. Pre-solo students would give me far more pause though maybe not a total show stopper.
     
  10. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,333
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I want a lot of things that aren’t reasonable and I’m not going to get. Drive a car off the lot and try to sell it back the next day for what you paid for it.

    If you feel this way, I think it’s safe to say any partnership would be a bad idea for you.
     
  11. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,421
    Location:
    New Bern, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Reno
    Actually, I've been in two partnerships, one currently. However Both partners are/were extremely well-qualified and I have the money to buy them out if needed.
     
  12. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,143
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    How many partners are in this aircraft currently? $10K may be a bit steep depending on number of partners. There's a flying club near me only wanting $1K buy in for a 180HP C172 with $100/mo dues and $50/dry hr, but they have ~10 guys in the partnership. Others have buy-ins closer to $3K-$5K. Just make sure you know the value of the aircraft and it's appropriate for the partnership size.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  13. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    965
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Its already been mentioned but I'll say it again. Exit clause should probably be the first thing you talk about. What the exit clause for each partner. If someone wants out, do the other partners get to approve who buys the share? Are the other partners required to buy the share themselves if the exiting partner cannot find a buyer the existing partners will approve of? How is the cost of the share determined? Is it negotiable?

    Work all that out first, then worry about what color the seats are.
     
    murphey likes this.
  14. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    58
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    We've all done hard landings in rentals and I've come to the realization that almost any plane that I could afford would have served at least some time as a trainer. I will not commit to anything without looking at the logs or having a professional do so.

    One student is apparently almost finished with her private. The other is her father and is pre-solo. I was given the contact info the their CFI, as well. I'm mostly interested in their student status as far as experience in ownership is concerned.

    I was assume that a student wouldn't necessarily be on it for maintenance or be near as familiar with the "process". One of the questions I have is regarding how long they have been in this and how involved they are with the plane itself. I don't have the money to buy them out but the agreement will definitely influence my decision. I would hate for a partner to back out in participation and suddenly a $5k annual comes up and I'm stuck with the entirety of it.
     
  15. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    58
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    This is a third share. Ad stated there is a split on the tie down and a fixed amount for the overhaul fund. The logistics of this is obviously a part of the agreement which I have yet to look at. Based on what little I've seen, it seems like a fair deal but that may easily change.
     
  16. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    965
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Most of the comments regarding apprehension due to partners being students seems focused around the students not finishing and deciding to give up. But you need to also consider the opposite scenario which is they both finish and fly for a year, then decide they need a Bonanza or a Mooney.
     
  17. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,098
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3G
    ADSB is ‘depends’. I think ADSB installs can be done for under $3K right now. The bigger challenge may lie in booking a slot for the work depending on what is needed.

    I would not personally buy into a partnership with students if I was also planning to need the plane for instruction. Other students are competition for the plane and they are no different than student renters from an experience perspective.

    If you know what’s required for IFR flight, why hire a CFI to tell you it’s equipped?

    Things I would like to know:

    Partnership agreement - what’s in it and is the partnership abiding by it.

    Financials. How solvent is the partnership? Are there assessments? How are the books managed?

    Availability & Scheduling. What’s typical usage, what’s the scheduling policy, etc.

    MX: What’s planned/when for any downtime?

    Extra: would the partnership have an issue with an independent A&P-IA doing a pre-purchase inspection of the aircraft? D
     
  18. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Fredericton NB Canada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cappy
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A lack of info here....but here goes... :)

    Long lasting partnerships have a few things in common...

    - Compatible partners.. (NOTHING to do with aviation here... )

    - The partnership is to FLY the plane often enough, NOT to "afford" it...

    - The partners, collectively, appropriate to their share, MUST be able to lay a cheque on the table today (that means NOW) for their share of an engine overhaul/repair. (3 Ways, that's at least 8-9 AMUs) This is NOT negotiable. If a partner cannot do this, they have no business owning an airplane... (IMHO)

    - The airplane must be capable of 80 - 90 % of the mission of each partner.

    I have been in a partnership for 13 years and it has been great. Partners have changed on 5 occasions, and the above rules always apply.

    We have a 1976 Warrior (151) and it is the best equipped, nicest, best maintained Cherokee around here. The financial strength of the partnership , (based on the fact that EACH of the partners could AFFORD the aircraft alone, but only partner to fly it often enough), means that the aircraft gets the very best maintenance and upgrades. We can afford a hangar that can be heated, internet control of preheat and security etc. that makes the flying experience sooooo much more enjoyable and consequently, we fly more often for a "rental rate" with out OWN aircraft.

    YMMV....

    Get the partnership (Shareholder) sample agreement from AOPA, or if in Canada, COPA. Use a limited company structure and DO NOT co-sign for any financing.

    Our partners bring ONLY CASH to buy in . (Don't care where they get it.) Shared financing is the bane of partnerships, partners that cannot afford to fly are the next problem issue...

    Persons who cannot afford to own an aircraft and band together so they can (?) usually starts a short lived expensive project...

    Sorry if this sounds a little emphatic, but I have seen other partnerships … well... not work out.. Ours (so far) has flourished with these "differences" . No credit taken here, we just listened to other, "older and wiser" pilot owners..

    FWIW!

    Cappy
     
    murphey and TCABM like this.
  19. flyer770

    flyer770 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    122
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Flyer770
    Cappy, what if the partner doesn’t keep enough for overhaul in their primary account, but does in nonretirement long term savings that take a few days to transfer into their primary account? Otherwise bang on. Partnerships are great if people can afford it.
     
  20. lancie00

    lancie00 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    503
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    1. ADS-B out will be $4500 installed if you go with a new Garmin GTX335. If you have a decent transponder now, you might get by for $1850 with a
    Skybeacon.

    2. Yes, partners can be handled with a good written agreement. All situations are different. Just make sure you have an exit strategy.

    3. In my opinion, yes. It won't save you a lot but you'll be learning in the plane you plan on using so it "should" be safer too.

    4. Yes, it wouldn't hurt to have your CFI take a look at it to make sure it's equipped well enough for training. Remember, you need to be able to make 1 precision and 2 non precision approaches.

    5. Time since an overhaul? Have they had an annual completed? What do the other owners want to do about avionics? Has it had a pitot static check lately? (If you're going to get your IFR you want to be able to fly in the soup.)

    Good luck!!!
     
  21. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    58
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    Transponder is old so it would no doubt need a new unit for ADS-B. Engine has under 800 hours on it. Annual is due early summer time and mags recently overhauled. I don't know about much else since I've just begun this process.

    Given some good comments above, I'm leaning no on this one but will look at the books and speak to a few other people. I may start putting money away at a faster rate so that I can just buy one outright (probably and RV) and not have to work with other people but I will keep this one in consideration.
     
  22. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    12,531
    Location:
    My own special place.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canis Non Grata
    Just curious but where are you located? Someone might know of other ownership or club options for you.
     
  23. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Fredericton NB Canada
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cappy
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Certainly no issue... The ABILITY to "lay down the cheque" is the operative word...

    Good money management would dictate that you would not hold these funds in a chequing account for that.. The "ability" means that they have access to the funds without encumbrances…

    I should also mention that we do not maintain and contribute to an "engine fund" in the company.. By agreement, we accept that if we "loose" the engine or any other substantial uninsured asset, the partner ship equity is automatically reduced by that amount , and "investment" is required to restore equity. (and of course, airworthiness)

    We also, if the flying revenue does not cover fixed expenses or substantial repairs at any point (annual insurance bill for instance) we agree to contribute equally to handle it.

    Now, it can be argued that the pilot flying the least may pay a portion of these expenses disproportionate to his use of the aircraft.... But we consider the fixed expenses to be the "cost of having the aircraft available to use" and the aircraft is "equally available " to all. If wishes or personal circumstances cause me to be unable to use the aircraft, it is considered MY problem, and does not become an issue in the partnership.. Illness and aviation medical issues have happened, and will happen.. :(

    We also pay an independent Certified accountant to oversee the financial operation of the company as well.

    Agreed..... A partnership in an aircraft should not be used to "enable" persons whom cannot afford it to acquire and operate an aircraft.

    Cap
     
    flyer770 and TCABM like this.
  24. EppyGA

    EppyGA Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    10,470
    Location:
    Hoschton, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Let's Fly
    Most everything has been said. The insurance rate will be set by your student partners.
     
  25. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    58
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    After speaking to one of the partners, I'm not sure this will be the best for me. The partnership agreement will be revealing but it seems like things are in a bit of flux and not as established as I'd like a partnership to be when I jump in as a member. The comments above have brought up great points and some things that I hadn't thought of. I have my IRA exam in a few weeks and start my IFR the first of next month so I'll definitely be sticking around this community. Thanks, for the responses and help. I may update more when I learn more.
     
  26. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    896
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John S
    Check your PM... there may still be an opportunity here for you...
     
  27. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,336
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    More important, with multiple,student owners, the insurance will be outlandish.
     
  28. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    965
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Insurance is definitely going to cost more with students. But its a warrior. How outlandish could it be?
     
  29. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,336
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    As a student pilot, insurance on my cherokee (I bought it before the checkride) was $1200. After checkride and a few yrs later, $600. It's cheaper than my 12 yr old Ford.
     
  30. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    965
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    And that's kind of my point. Paying twice as much for insurance is significant because well, its twice as much. But if we were talking about something like a bonanza, well lets just say $1200 for insurance would be a dream come true in that conversation to say the least. And its one year assuming the students finish in a timely manner.
     
  31. RonP

    RonP Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    35
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RvP
    Although my post is not going to answer any questions that were asked it is unique. I have a cousin 2 hours north of me that loves airplanes. 8 years ago he was getting bored with his Comanche, Pitts S2 and restoring 2 1958 Aeronca Champs. There was a derelict 1969 Cherokee 140 in the tall grass sunk up to the axles serving as a bird sanctuary with broken windows and seats used as nesting materials for rodents. On a dare be bought it.

    He and his EAA buddies took it apart, replaced numerous parts, rebuilt the engine, new interior, windows and a custom paint job. When I was working on my PPL 5 years ago he would occasionally fly the Cherokee south, pick me up and supplement my lessons.

    It took me a year to get my PPL starting in the venerable 152 and finishing in a 172. The next 2 years I put in many hours renting a Warrior and Archer. Two years ago he flew the Cherokee south, threw me the keys and had 2 requests; have fun flying it and fly me back home! Knowing a good thing I caught the keys, rented a tie down and flew him back home.

    He considers himself as a silent partner in the Cherokee. I take care of all maintenance, annuals, etc. The operating cost for fuel, tie down and annual is half what I was paying for renting the Warrior. I am no longer tied to a rental schedule, can go when I want, stay as long as I want and return when I want. My wife and I have flown as far as Jersey to Knoxville. Absolute freedom of the skies.

    He did a beautiful job and the Cherokee looks great and flies great. I don't have to load or unload personal items each flight and I know exactly if the airplane has been abused every flight. It is peace of mind since I know the abuse learning how to fly can stress an airframe which always was a concern renting when rental airplanes are side lined with collapsed struts, broken engine mounts, non-operating avionics, faulty instruments, flat spots on tires, burned out flap motors, etc. I also don't have to clean up the last person's water bottles, candy wrappers and so on.

    However the 140 does have its flaws; only VFR equipped, isn't fast, can't carry a load and during landing the Hershey bar wing decides when it is done flying, not you. However it is the best airplane I have ever flown anytime I want to! Getting off a rental schedule has made flying 1,000 percent more enjoyable.

    My advice is if you can get into a partnership and cover all the points mentioned it beats being tied to a rental schedule and not knowing what the last person did in the airplane.

    (Thanks cousin)
     
  32. Carolinaflyer

    Carolinaflyer Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Carolinaflyer
    That’s AWESOME!
     
  33. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2019
    Messages:
    58
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Daniel
    That's pretty effin cool!
     
  34. Glen R

    Glen R Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2014
    Messages:
    122
    Location:
    Huntington, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Glen
    ^^THIS^^ You will have partner turnover whether they finish their private or not. It's not always easy to find new ones that are complimentary to the other partners needs. A good agreement could help but isn't bulletproof. Is the plane owned by an LLC?