Waiting on DER approval, can I fly

S

Soupy Sales

Guest
Plane is safe, in annual. Had recent major repair work done that requires DER signature (supposed to be any day now) before 337 goes to some magic file. Plane has been flown on "test flights" and all systems are good. Everything signed off by IA/AP. Part 91 only. I'd like to continue flying. Can I or should I? Likely would pass ramp check, nothing shows.

What would you do?
What should I do?

Gracias, con gusto.
 
Safe and legal aren’t synonymous for a reason.
 
Until the der signs off, the repair is not approved.

using that simple fact, estimate how would the ntsb report would read if you crashed? Also, how the insurance call would go.
 
Maybe I'm a little new to the process, but how were "test flights" performed prior to the DER (DAR?) inspection and sign off?
 
midwestpa24 said:
Maybe I'm a little new to the process, but how were "test flights" performed prior to the DER (DAR?) inspection and sign off?
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I did not realize all of this until recently. Perhaps share more once 337 in hand, nasa form filled out.

on the other hand, I hate to screw up somebody getting a paycheck
AND I feel like I can’t afford enemies in this small world.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Maybe I'm a little new to the process, but how were "test flights" performed prior to the DER (DAR?) inspection and sign off?
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If operational check flights are required as part of the repair or if an ops check flight is needed to complete maintenance after the repair, they can be performed with the appropriate log entries until the final approve for return to service. Regardless, something is missing from this narrative.
Soupy sales said:
Someone told me they would not have released the plane this way.
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Except the system doesn't work that way. If your mechanics performed the work without that signed DER approval document and completed the 337 without approved data in their hand they set themselves up to fail. Its either that or they're waiting on a DAR (not DER) with Function Code 50 or 51 to sign Block 3 on the 337. Are you using an independent mechanic or a repair station for this work?
 
Bell206 said:
If operational check flights are required as part of the repair or if an ops check flight is needed to complete maintenance after the repair, they can be performed with the appropriate log entries until the final approve for return to service. Regardless, something is missing from this narrative.

Except the system doesn't work that way. If your mechanics performed the work without that signed DER approval document and completed the 337 without approved data in their hand they set themselves up to fail. Its either that or they're waiting on a DAR (not DER) with Function Code 50 or 51 to sign Block 3 on the 337. Are you using an independent mechanic or a repair station for this work?
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Repair station. DER is what is needed for 8110-3, then 337 can be submitted. A 337 has NOT been submitted for the work.
 
ADSB is evidence if someone wanted to make life hard for you. Same with radio transmissions if that’ll happen on your flight. Cheaper and less hassle to rent if you just gotta launch.
 
soupy sales said:
Repair station. DER is what is needed for 8110-3, then 337 can be submitted. A 337 has NOT been submitted for the work.
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Given its a repair station I doubt they have issued a Maintenance Release so you can't fly the aircraft as it has not been approved for return to service. And I doubt your comment "everything signed off by IA/AP" is accurate. Also keep in mind a repair station can use their Maintenance Release for major repair approvals in lieu of a Form 337. Regardless, be sure to request a copy of the work order and if they do complete a 337, keep a copy of the 337 and the repair work order together with the aircraft permanent records. Repair stations are only required to maintain records for 2 years so there may be a time when your work order copy will be the only detailed record/approval of the repair available, especially if they don't complete a 337.
 
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Bell206 said:
Given its a repair station I doubt they have issued a Maintenance Release so you can't fly the aircraft as it has not been approved for return to service. And I doubt your comment "everything signed off by IA/AP" is accurate. Also keep in mind a repair station can use their Maintenance Release for major repair approvals in lieu of a Form 337. Regardless, be sure to request a copy of the work order and if they do complete a 337, keep a copy of the 337 and the repair work order together with the aircraft permanent records. Repair stations are only required to maintain records for 2 years so there may be a time when your work order copy will be the only detailed record/approval of the repair available, especially if they don't complete a 337.
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I’d love to discuss this more with details, have thought to private message some of you but don’t want disclosure of myself or interested parties until legal.

thanks for the feedback everyone, I’ve cancelled my flying
I’d been told things would happen this week, they did not.
This “just a formality” seems to be a big deal.
 
Not sure what the lesson learned is…
 
Doing a “ 337 Proposal” prior to even buying parts has worked well.

There are times “ simple” is anything but and “ complex “ is not too bad after all.

Note that some STCs are not valid w/o the ok from the holder.

Think used avionics.
 
bflynn said:
using that simple fact, estimate how would the ntsb report would read if you crashed?
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Okay everyone says this, but I have 'never' seen the NTSB ever dig this deep into an investigation for light GA. I have read many NTSB reports and not a single one has ever mentioned aircraft logs or aircraft legal condition.
 
I have seen the FAA dig very deep after a non- fatal incident.

Long story but if you knew the pilot you would understand .

There have been times I’ve worked for and against the Insurance Companies.

Anyone that deliberately flies an Un- Airworthy aircraft is asking for trouble.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I have read many NTSB reports and not a single one has ever mentioned aircraft logs or aircraft legal condition.
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FYI: In the probable cause you won't see that, but they will and do include those and other details in the supporting docs when applicable. Have seen copies of the actual logbooks posted in the public docket and even narratives of a pilots personal life as well. However, sometimes the details will not get published in the public docket for various reasons but can be obtained via a FOIA in some cases.
 
“ Just a formality ?”

Suppose DER wants thicker gauge or more rivets? NOW.

If the DER is on staff initial approval may be verbal.

The DER would be needed if this is a non-standard repair.

This project should not have got this far w/o addressing the I/A/W part.
 
I had a similar event a few years ago, the annual wasn’t signed complete until the DER was satisfied, then signed off on the repair.

Yes, could be obvious or maybe not a serious safety of flight issue. I’d be calling the DER every 2 days to light a fire. Tell him Oshkosh is coming up.
 
I’ve been under the impression that the DER only provides the Approved Data

needed to make the repair.

There is no requirement < for the DER > to witness the completed task.

Am I wrong?
 
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Magman said:
I’ve been under the impression that the DER only provides the Approved Data

needed to make the repair.

There is no requirement to witness the completed task.

Am I wrong?
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You are. The 1997? crash of the luckiest AME alive, in which he flew from Hoisington KS to a farm field in MO, just prior to Annual sign off, had the full investigation.
 

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Note I clarified my comment in #27.

So BC is saying the DER would develop the Approved Repair Data and

after another Agency completes the repair the DER must inspect

if the Repair was done per the Approved Data?
 
Magman said:
DER must inspect if the Repair was done per the Approved Data?
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It depends on the repair. There might be a conformity inspection required or some other check needed once the repair is completed. DER major repair data approval can also require additional steps especially if the DER's functions do not cover all aspects of the repair itself or the managing ACO requests additional checks.
 
This thread is very interesting. Obviously we the readers of this thread are missing many details but, AC 43.9-1G kinda spells out some things. Like this:

"9 ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESSING. FAA Form 337 will be executed in duplicate
with one signed copy given to the aircraft owner and one copy forwarded to the FAA
within 48 hours after the airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance is installed on
an aircraft and approved for return to service. FAA processing of the forms and their
supporting data will depend on whether approved or unapproved data is used."

If everything has been signed and returned to service the job is complete isn't it? Or am I missing something?
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43.9-1G.pdf
 
Always something new!

My relationship with DERs left it to the IA to determine if the repair conforms

to the DER supplied data.

IMHO DER fees were actually rather reasonable.

That’s with no travel time though.
 
My expectation is that this was a repair conforming to what has previously been approved by the DER. In other words, a formality.

I do not know who the DER is.
 
Magman said:
My relationship with DERs left it to the IA to determine if the repair conforms to the DER supplied data.
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For some repairs with DER data thats all it takes. If its true the DER had yet to sign I suspect some sort of final check was needed. Or if the repair requires additional ICAs then perhaps that needed to be completed. Given the DER is required to coordinate with the ACO on major repair or alteration data approvals perhaps there was an issue from the ACO? Or maybe the repair requires an additional field approval signature from the FSDO? However, without knowing the extent of the OPs repair hard to say.
 
Soupy sales said:
My expectation is that this was a repair conforming to what has previously been approved by the DER. In other words, a formality.
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FYI: the use of previously approved DER repair data has very specific requirements to follow when used on a later or different aircraft. With one item the 8110-3 should have been signed/authorized prior to the start of the repair on your aircraft. However, without more info I can't offer anymore. But suffice to say if your shop used an old approval without the DERs knowledge it maybe more than just a "formality."

As the owner, I would call the shop and specifically ask what is the status on when the aircraft will be released. If you don't receive an acceptable answer inquire specifically why the 8110-3 and 337 are not signed if the repair is complete.
 
“Paperwork” is not something to be done only when wrapping up a project.

It should “ lead “ the process to determine the proper course of action.

My thought HAD been that the DER furnished Approved Data similar to the STC System.

Bell has pointed out there can be further issues.

l’ve dealt with folks that bought used avionics only to find that the STC is only valid if

installed by one of their Dealers.

Plan ahe
ad!
 
At this point things remain unsigned and the plane is not flying . It is increasingly apparent that the shop was slow submitting paperwork, really not doing so until the job was done, perhaps 4 months after submission requested.

It is almost as if nobody was truly managing the work with experienced oversight. My anger and frustration grows.

can an ia get in trouble for releasing a plane without a 337 filed?
 
Soupy sales said:
can an ia get in trouble for releasing a plane without a 337 filed?
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Yes. There is a regulatory requirement to file the 337 with Oak City within 48 hours of the aircraft approved for return to service. Regardless you as owner can require the shop to give you an update on the status of the aircraft. Without knowing what specifically is holding up the shop cant really offer more. But you're in the drivers seat on this and not them.
 
The great Bill O’Brien wrote an article on this topic.

It outlined specifically how the Tech would be charged.

Note that BOTH the Tech and the Pilot are illegal as soon as the wheels

leave the ground.,

Wanting to press for violations against the Tech can backfire as it will result

in a violation on the Pilot in order to do so.

Different Regs though.
 
I am not in control!

I don’t want anyone to get in trouble, thus folks here will likely never know this true situation.
 
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