Wa. Fires

[Tom-D]

http://t.omakchronicle.com/news/201...nder-fire-evacuation-notice/?templates=tablet

That's where we go fishing. so sad. It will not be so lush next spring after the spring run off does it's nasty work.

 

[Henning]

Bummer However wildfires are important to the long term health of a forest.

 

[Matthew]

I got great view from sbout FL350 a couple weekends ago. Sitting on the right side, going to SEA from Kansas City I could really see the smok column. I had Garmin Pilot and the SEA sectional, the TFR was marked.

 

[Tom-D]

Bummer However wildfires are important to the long term health of a forest.

Bull Scat, Liberal hype to rationalize not spending the money on our national forests. You don't see this happening where best practices in forest management is a common practices.

Tree Farms make up a large portion of the the forestation in this state, you do not see this happening there.

The national forestfs are your worst neighbor, Barb and I drove thru this area this spring and there was better than 4' of fuel on the forest floor. half the trees were dead due to bug infestation, and no one was hired to do control burns or thin the trees.

This is cause simply by bad management of the national forest, The tree hugging liberals would rather spend the money on social programs that insure votes from the ghettoes.

 

[Tom-D]

Of the 5 pictures above, the first two were taken in the state park at Conconully Wa. the second two are taken in the Okanogan National forest 7-8 miles west of Conconully, the last two are of the tree farm south of Rt.20 at Loup Loup Pass west of Okanogan Wa.

note the difference between the national forest and the tree farm. national forest the lower limbs of the trees are dead, but still hanging as fuel. The tree farm. the trees were limbed, and a control burn was done 4 years ago. There the fire has no fuel to burn and reach the tops of the trees where it can spread really fast.

 

[DeeG]

Chelan is barely hanging on by its teeth today. Was not a good night. They guess 100 or so buildings/residences gone. We had a big WTF? moment friday afternoon when someone from McNeil Canyon called and said the fire had jumped the Columbia. I guess the wind was blowing so hard up there it caused three or four accidents from blowing dirt and sand. Visibility down to a few feet.

On the bright side, I heard the Governor wanted to come out and view the fire damage for hisself, and wanted to fly into Chelan Airport. Sorry, dude, the airport is closed except for fire fighting aircraft and emergencies only.


And one of the best pics taken so far, courtesy of Mike Bonnicksen/Wenatchee World.

 

[Henning]

Bull Scat, Liberal hype to rationalize not spending the money on our national forests. You don't see this happening where best practices in forest management is a common practices.

Tree Farms make up a large portion of the the forestation in this state, you do not see this happening there.

The national forestfs are your worst neighbor, Barb and I drove thru this area this spring and there was better than 4' of fuel on the forest floor. half the trees were dead due to bug infestation, and no one was hired to do control burns or thin the trees.

This is cause simply by bad management of the national forest, The tree hugging liberals would rather spend the money on social programs that insure votes from the ghettoes.

Tree farms harvest and plant seedlings. Many conifers require fire for the seeds to be able to germinate. How much money do you want to give the forestry service to clear undergrowth? Fire is part of the natural cycle of things.

 

[Tom-D]

Tree farms harvest and plant seedlings. Many conifers require fire for the seeds to be able to germinate. How much money do you want to give the forestry service to clear undergrowth? Fire is part of the natural cycle of things.

Believe the liberal hype if you must, but you are wrong.

 

[AKBill]

Tree farms harvest and plant seedlings. Many conifers require fire for the seeds to be able to germinate. How much money do you want to give the forestry service to clear undergrowth? Fire is part of the natural cycle of things.

This is true, but it's not the whole truth.

Government has stopped a good part of the logging in many areas. This has devastated many communities of honest work and income. Many logging company's, sawmills, have been forced to close and the employees lost there means to support their families.

Selective logging is a way to keep the forest healthy and reduce the effects of forest fires. Logging company's would thin the forest for nothing and folks would be able to prosper from the work. Government in many cases imposes restrictions without looking at the whole picture.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Believe the liberal hype if you must, but you are wrong.

No liberal hype about it.

Conservative, Republican Party voting ranchers have known and understood this for decades if not centuries. Like it or not, forest fires are part of a balanced natural cycle. If you completely prevent all fires, what you get is a natural system that is out of balance and when you do have a fire, it gets much worse.

It isn't much different than removing predators like wolves from an ecosystem. When man starts interrupting the natural balance, he must be prepared to take alternative actions to restore the balance or suffer the consequences.

 

[Tom-D]

No liberal hype about it.

Conservative, Republican Party voting ranchers have known and understood this for decades if not centuries. Like it or not, forest fires are part of a balanced natural cycle. If you completely prevent all fires, what you get is a natural system that is out of balance and when you do have a fire, it gets much worse.

It isn't much different than removing predators like wolves from an ecosystem. When man starts interrupting the natural balance, he must be prepared to take alternative actions to restore the balance or suffer the consequences.

The Carolton Complex Fire in this area last year proves you wrong. it burned to the edge of a properly managed forest and went out. because the fuel was already burned under control. properly managed forest do not have wild fires.
when you understand what a control burn is you will understand what I'm talking about.
The Dept. of the Interior has been under funded for decades, we are now paying the price of that with these fires. Our forests did not get in this condition over night.

So now you think it is nature's way. You need to realize this is man made, by neglect. Nature's way is a virgin stand. we no longer have any. Man created this mess, we need to take care of what we have left.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The Carolton Complex Fire in this area last year proves you wrong. it burned to the edge of a properly managed forest and went out. because the fuel was already burned under control. properly managed forest do not have wild fires.

when you understand what a control burn is you will understand what I'm talking about.

The Dept. of the Interior has been under funded for decades, we are now paying the price of that with these fires. Our forests did not get in this condition over night.



So now you think it is nature's way. You need to realize this is man made, by neglect. Nature's way is a virgin stand. we no longer have any. Man created this mess, we need to take care of what we have left.

Not sure where the confusion is. I think we are actually in agreement. I am quite familiar with controlled burns: I have personally been involved in them (Maine as a Volunteer FF). Maybe I missed something by reading this on TapaTalk, but I understood Henning's point to be simply that fire is a natural cycle, which IS true. If you don't want natural fire (and most of us do not due to human development concerns), then you must be prepared to be pro-active through controlled burning.

As far as liberals vs conservatives, in my experience (dealing with the Forest Service and BLM in Arizona, late 1990s), most of the conservative cattle ranchers understood this and wanted controlled burns. The opposition tended to be liberal groups who wanted to protect the poor defenseless animals.

 

[Tom-D]

Not sure where the confusion is. I think we are actually in agreement. I am quite familiar with controlled burns: I have personally been involved in them (Maine as a Volunteer FF). Maybe I missed something by reading this on TapaTalk, but I understood Henning's point to be simply that fire is a natural cycle, which IS true. If you don't want natural fire (and most of us do not due to human development concerns), then you must be prepared to be pro-active through controlled burning.

As far as liberals vs conservatives, in my experience (dealing with the Forest Service and BLM in Arizona, late 1990s), most of the conservative cattle ranchers understood this and wanted controlled burns. The opposition tended to be liberal groups who wanted to protect the poor defenseless animals.

Understand the difference between a controlled burn and a wild fire and which can prevent the other.
The problem we have now is the condition of the state and national forests, and the cause of that is the liberal spending habits of congress.
Putting this in a perspective that Henning and others can understand. My house is a fire hazzard, I have stacked volatile materials all around it, I refuse to place lightning rods on it, when it catches fire because of a natural act, like lightning, and causes your house to burn, who is responsible for your loss?

 

[overdrive148]

That plane looks familiar! It's usually based out of Victorville CA I saw it twice a week for classes on the airport there. Nice pic!

 

[frfly172]

Like the picture of the tanker.

 

[Tom-D]

As far as liberals vs conservatives, in my experience (dealing with the Forest Service and BLM in Arizona, late 1990s), most of the conservative cattle ranchers understood this and wanted controlled burns.

You bet they did, they wanted you to manage your property so as to protect theirs.

which is not happening in most of the state and national forests, as a result, we have 68 wild fires burning out of control in the west. In the past few decades, the forests management has bet it would stay wet enough the crises would not come, well we haven't had any rain since the first week of April. They lost their bet.

 

[Tom-D]

Sad part of this...

the US government will pay more in fighting these fires than it would have taken to prevent them, and in the mean time we lost a large portion of our grandchildren's inherence.
Plus the fact that trees make O2, the long term effect of these fires is the air quality of the US.

I'm no tree hugger I do believe in proper forest management, which insures trees for the future, we need the products, jobs, and air quality they provide, and these wild fire are simply a waste of your property.

 

[SkyDog58]

That plane looks familiar! It's usually based out of Victorville CA I saw it twice a week for classes on the airport there. Nice pic!

The 10 Tanker group now has three of those bad boys flying. When I was last at VCV they just had one, #910. Now they have 910, 911 and 912 in service and as of a few days ago, all are actively deployed. It has been a banner year for them.

 

[denverpilot]

Been seeing some great video out of the 10s this year. Well great flying anyway, not so great that they're needed to lay down huge retardant lines to try to save structures.

Impressive flying and an impressive use of the airframe.

 

[Matthew]

Chelan is barely hanging on by its teeth today. Was not a good night. They guess 100 or so buildings/residences gone. We had a big WTF? moment friday afternoon when someone from McNeil Canyon called and said the fire had jumped the Columbia. I guess the wind was blowing so hard up there it caused three or four accidents from blowing dirt and sand. Visibility down to a few feet.

On the bright side, I heard the Governor wanted to come out and view the fire damage for hisself, and wanted to fly into Chelan Airport. Sorry, dude, the airport is closed except for fire fighting aircraft and emergencies only.


And one of the best pics taken so far, courtesy of Mike Bonnicksen/Wenatchee World.

Here's what it looks like from a different angle:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...ardant-in-Chelan-321922371.html?tab=video&c=y

 

[Tom-D]

Here's what it looks like from a different angle:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...ardant-in-Chelan-321922371.html?tab=video&c=y

And they still lost over 100 structures which in included 75 homes. and it is still burning.

If the Okanogan National Forest had been managed properly, and the prudent forest practices been applied over the past 20 years this fire and those of the past few years would not have happened.

 

[Matthew]

My folks live in CO, in the mountains. I don't think they've had fires near them this year, but they seem to have to evacuate about every two or three years (like last year).

I was at a National Park a couple years ago and they had some photos in the visitor center that I thought were interesting. They were taken from the same spot, about 100 years apart. It was obvious that the new picture was showing a much greater tree density.

I've wondered about that. Do we have more trees, higher density, and as a result a greater risk of more intense fires because we have done too good a job of putting out fires? I don't know if maybe the area in these pictures had been logged in the past and isn't now. And I know, that's a very small sample size to make any conclusions.

 

[SkyDog58]

Here's what it looks like from a different angle:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...ardant-in-Chelan-321922371.html?tab=video&c=y

 

[denverpilot]

Here's what it looks like from a different angle:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...ardant-in-Chelan-321922371.html?tab=video&c=y

He got the shot. In that biz, that's all that counts anymore. Camera is a freaking mess, though.

 

[Tom-D]

My folks live in CO, in the mountains. I don't think they've had fires near them this year, but they seem to have to evacuate about every two or three years (like last year).

I was at a National Park a couple years ago and they had some photos in the visitor center that I thought were interesting. They were taken from the same spot, about 100 years apart. It was obvious that the new picture was showing a much greater tree density.

I've wondered about that. Do we have more trees, higher density, and as a result a greater risk of more intense fires because we have done too good a job of putting out fires? I don't know if maybe the area in these pictures had been logged in the past and isn't now. And I know, that's a very small sample size to make any conclusions.

We now grow more trees per acre than what the pilgrims found when they arrived, simply because the trees they found were well over 200 years old tall enough to shade out all under growth, there was no worries about fire, the trees were tall enough that it could not reach the tops and plumb out like it does in todays trees that we harvest at 50 years.
When we have a wild fire that will re-seed its self, the tree will totally cover the ground in 5 years, then as the stronger trees out grow the weaker ones they will shade out 90% of the trees that were re-seeded, this leaves the dead trees that are about 10-15 feet tall dead, but the stronger trees no tall enough to evade the fire the dead ones cause. this is why the forest management must thin the dead ones out and do control burns that leave a clean forest floor where a wild fire can not spread.

 

[Matthew]

We now grow more trees per acre than what the pilgrims found when they arrived, simply because the trees they found were well over 200 years old tall enough to shade out all under growth, there was no worries about fire, the trees were tall enough that it could not reach the tops and plumb out like it does in todays trees that we harvest at 50 years.
When we have a wild fire that will re-seed its self, the tree will totally cover the ground in 5 years, then as the stronger trees out grow the weaker ones they will shade out 90% of the trees that were re-seeded, this leaves the dead trees that are about 10-15 feet tall dead, but the stronger trees no tall enough to evade the fire the dead ones cause. this is why the forest management must thin the dead ones out and do control burns that leave a clean forest floor where a wild fire can not spread.

It really is all about the amount of tinder available. When you get a chance to see old growth forests vs newer, you see the difference. Trees are taller, farther apart, and there just isn't as much stuff down low to burn. In those places a fire will clean things out and not build up much energy. But when those trees are tightly packed, it's like setting off a book of matches. The fires get so hot they end up sterilizing the ground, and nothing grows because seeds are dead, then the mudslides start the following year because there is nothing with any roots to stabilize the soil. I've seen the results of that where my folks live. In fire season they always worry. Some people in California worry about the "big one", in CO and other places they worry about it too except it isn't an earthquake.

Around here, in the KS Flint Hills, we have some of the last tallgrass prairie left in the US. Each spring the ranchers burn it. Sometimes that results in IFR up to a hundred miles away when temperature inversions trap the smoke down low. But it cleans the dead growth, kills weeds, and keeps the new growth healthy. It's pretty impressive to see.

 

[Tom-D]

It really is all about the amount of tinder available. When you get a chance to see old growth forests vs newer, you see the difference. Trees are taller, farther apart, and there just isn't as much stuff down low to burn. In those places a fire will clean things out and not build up much energy. But when those trees are tightly packed, it's like setting off a book of matches. The fires get so hot they end up sterilizing the ground, and nothing grows because seeds are dead, then the mudslides start the following year because there is nothing with any roots to stabilize the soil. I've seen the results of that where my folks live. In fire season they always worry. Some people in California worry about the "big one", in CO and other places they worry about it too except it isn't an earthquake.

Around here, in the KS Flint Hills, we have some of the last tallgrass prairie left in the US. Each spring the ranchers burn it. Sometimes that results in IFR up to a hundred miles away when temperature inversions trap the smoke down low. But it cleans the dead growth, kills weeds, and keeps the new growth healthy. It's pretty impressive to see.

When the forest is managed properly, it will not happen as a wild fire. Wild fires simply kill every thing for mile after mile.

 

[BigBadLou]

Took a scenic flight with another PoA member last weekend. Got to see Mt. Saint Helen up close, Mt. Reinier from respectable distance and Mt. Adams shrouded in smoke. (picture attached)
Visibility gets definitely impaired in WA and OR due to these fires with fire-fighting TFRs left and right. Hope they extinguish the fires soon.

 

[Tom-D]

Took a scenic flight with another PoA member last weekend. Got to see Mt. Saint Helen up close, Mt. Reinier from respectable distance and Mt. Adams shrouded in smoke. (picture attached)
Visibility gets definitely impaired in WA and OR due to these fires with fire-fighting TFRs left and right. Hope they extinguish the fires soon.

Most will burn until the snow puts them out.

 

[Tom-D]

New fire yesterday, and will burn until the snow puts it out, simply because of the terrain is it burning which totally inaccessible. and no water in miles.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Wildfire-forces-evacuation-of-Twisp-322342801.html

As of last night's figures:

390,000 ac are on fire in the state now, if that doesn't mean anything to you that is 100,000 more than last year 390,000 Ac = 590 square miles. (This morning it is over 620 square miles) all because the DNR was not supported by congress to do the proper forest clean up. and practice proper forest management. Congress knows they can not buy votes by spending money in the national forests, so they spend it in the inner cities just to get re-elected. The Sad part is it would have taken less money to prevent these fires than it will to contain them. plus it would have provided jobs in the forests. But Hell no, welfare is more important to them.

 

[yakdriver]

A good friend of mine is flying a FireBoss (water scooper 802 on floats) based at Omak. He's been working his ass off the last 8 days. His record is 39 scoops and drops in 6.5 hrs. Don

 

[Tom-D]

A good friend of mine is flying a FireBoss (water scooper 802 on floats) based at Omak. He's been working his ass off the last 8 days. His record is 39 scoops and drops in 6.5 hrs. Don

He will be flying in 40 MPH winds tomorrow. they issued e-vac orders for Tonasket. the fire is now over 100,000 ac.

 

[yakdriver]

Here is a picture that my friend sent of his Fire Boss sitting at the Omak airport Wednesday. They were dropping on the airport property for awhile. Don

 

[Tom-D]

Here is a picture that my friend sent of his Fire Boss sitting at the Omak airport Wednesday. They were dropping on the airport property for awhile. Don

The fire has joined three other fires and is now called the Okanogan complex fire, of 120,000 ac. Now the largest fire ever in Wa.
Our 172 customer has a hangar at Tonasket, and a cabin up there too, he has saved the cabin, and barn, but had fight the fire to save his barn.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

New fire yesterday, and will burn until the snow puts it out, simply because of the terrain is it burning which totally inaccessible. and no water in miles.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Wildfire-forces-evacuation-of-Twisp-322342801.html

As of last night's figures:

390,000 ac are on fire in the state now, if that doesn't mean anything to you that is 100,000 more than last year 390,000 Ac = 590 square miles. (This morning it is over 620 square miles) all because the DNR was not supported by congress to do the proper forest clean up. and practice proper forest management. Congress knows they can not buy votes by spending money in the national forests, so they spend it in the inner cities just to get re-elected. The Sad part is it would have taken less money to prevent these fires than it will to contain them. plus it would have provided jobs in the forests. But Hell no, welfare is more important to them.

Maybe in the states with inner cities.

Without sending this to the spin zone, I observe that congress critters seem to get their re-election money elsewhere now. We seem to have more money come from out-of-state to elect (or re-elect) our representatives, both parties. That can't be good for getting congress to look towards local issues.

I agree with you in general on this subject, just disagree in how the votes are being bought and sold. The inner city people don't have the money to purchase a congress critter (again, any party).

 

[Tom-D]

Maybe in the states with inner cities.

Without sending this to the spin zone, I observe that congress critters seem to get their re-election money elsewhere now. We seem to have more money come from out-of-state to elect (or re-elect) our representatives, both parties. That can't be good for getting congress to look towards local issues.

I agree with you in general on this subject, just disagree in how the votes are being bought and sold. The inner city people don't have the money to purchase a congress critter (again, any party).

I was thinking votes not money.

 

[denverpilot]

I was thinking votes not money.

The votes of the poor keep the Comgresscritters in the best job in the world -- where they can spend whatever they like in loans against other people's labor, to buy more votes... And live quite a nice lifestyle on those loans, too.

If they don't get reelected their buddies will make sure to get them a nice job somewhere and fund the agency with those loans too.

Why work when you can just spout rhetoric and have a permanent gig spending OPM and more? They all know the electorate are more interested in the promises than the results. Better TV.

Anyway... Saw this yesterday from
near Twisp. These folks have their priorities right. Rough stuff up there.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I was thinking votes not money.

There's a lot more congress critters without inner city voters than those that have them.

 

[Tom-D]

There's a lot more congress critters without inner city voters than those that have them.

And they all have their own agenda, and it ain't national forest rehab.

 

[garyb]

There is a lot of smoke here - sky's completely overcast. It's like a bad sandstorm in Dubai, only gray and harder to breathe.