VR, Flight Simulators and...nausea?

FastEddieB

FastEddieB

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Fast Eddie B
This Week in Tech discussed an article about why Virtual Reality may face some major hurdles to wide acceptance - mainly because it makes a lot of people sick!

https://www.quora.com/How-big-an-issue-is-the-nausea-problem-for-Virtual-Reality-products

I sympathize. I taught aerobatics and was never much bothered by nausea. Link Trainers and other simulators never bothered me. But playing certain video games gets me felling woozy in fairly short order*. And I got Google Cardboard for my birthday. Quite impressive for what it is, but after "walking around" some cities with it for about 10 minutes, I got quite nauseated - did not throw up but took me about an hour to get back to normal. Not very eager to try it again!

Curious about other's reactions to some of these new devices, and how widespread the problem is.


*A racing game called "Cro-Mag Rally" was especially bad in that regard.
 
Can't speak specifically to VR, but video games involving motion through simulated scenery, even certain motion-intensive movies projected onto a planetarium, make me queasy sooner or later. I turned down a gig at the planetarium at my former employer for that reason. I'm not bothered by ear/eye mismatches in flight either, even in IMC, and did spin training with no ill effects. I suspect I'm in a subset of the population that's sensitive to the mismatch when the input telling the brain you're in motion is visual, and the inner ear senses nothing. Apparently some of us are completely insensitive to the reverse mismatch.

Anyway, could be the people getting sick from VR are similarly "configured".
 
For those who skip the link, the hypothesis is that, through history, when your vision and motion started to seem even a little "off", it was probably because you had ingested something suspect - like magic mushrooms - and the best recourse was to involuntary eject whatever might be causing the distress, hence the nausea.

Not something that would have occurred to me!
 
Need a high resolution and a high refresh rate and the nausea goes away almost universally. I'd say the next version of the rift/vive will get the resolution fixed to where there is no more screen dooring. Bad thing is it will require high end gtx or amd cards or even SLI or crossfiring them to hit the 90fps min at 4kish resolution. Also the FOV if not wide enough can cause motion sickness I usually try to play games in the 90 degree+ range.

Basically in the high end stuff Vive/Rift its a whole lot tougher to get motion sick and give it another year or two till a new version comes out and it should be a nonissue for most people. Just need More POWAH!.
 
I bought a vive for my son, and it's amazing. I have never had issues with video games before but I got a little sick playing a racing game this weekend. I thought I might be getting old. Lol. I felt it's because your eyes and ears were telling the body two different things.
 
A buddy built a formation simulator for the Rift. The resolution was not super, but the motion and head tracking was great. Still, it was a bit disorienting and could definitely make you nauseous. It's a real issue.
 
FastEddieB said:
For those who skip the link, the hypothesis is that, through history, when your vision and motion started to seem even a little "off", it was probably because you had ingested something suspect - like magic mushrooms - and the best recourse was to involuntary eject whatever might be causing the distress, hence the nausea.

Not something that would have occurred to me!
Click to expand...

Well, I've certainly ingested stuff before that caused that very effect.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Well, I've certainly ingested stuff before that caused that very effect.
Click to expand...
Arby's or McD? :D

I should try VR sometime because I have never been able to induce any motion sickness or spatial disorientation. (and my CFII tried his hardest) To quote a few famous characters: "It's a gift ... and a curse".
I am glad that somebody (Google?) is finally reviving 1980's technology. Hopefully we will get to see it improve fast and serve good purpose. (yeah right! I bet VR po*n will be the fastest industry growing :) )
 
I thought I was impervious to nausea until experiencing flicker vertigo...and only once...violent vomiting within ten seconds...certain things can be triggers...but this event was in a UH-1 flying the ILS Backcourse into Dothan Alabama....I am assuming VR can create similar situations.
 
I've don't all sorts of spins in planes, lots of flips skydiving, lots of sailing, no issues.

Gave some instruction in a red bird FMX, with the motion turned on it really started to get to me, motion off it was just fine. I think even with a polished product your body just knows something ain't right with moron sims and VR
 
For those skipping the article, one main factor was any VR helmet has you focusing on a screen or screens a few inches in front of your eyes. But the VR uses cues to make you think you are seeing objects at a distance. It is this disparity that may induce nausea no matter how fast the refresh rate or the fidelity of the images.

In the opinion of the author, of course.
 
The first few times in the full motion sim, I had to hold on to things while getting in/out of my seat. The strangest thing I have ever felt was during a position reset. The instructor forgot to tell us to close our eyes when he moved the plane. I had an overwhelming sensation of falling forward to which I quickly grabbed the glare shield. In reality I had never moved.
 
James331 said:
I've don't all sorts of spins in planes, lots of flips skydiving, lots of sailing, no issues.

Gave some instruction in a red bird FMX, with the motion turned on it really started to get to me, motion off it was just fine. I think even with a polished product your body just knows something ain't right with moron sims and VR
Click to expand...

Same here. Some basic aerobatics, skydiving, roller coasters, boating, the economy... no effect. But a little time in an A-320 sim had me feeling a bit off. I didn't get sick but it got me a bit dizzy.
 
FastEddieB said:
For those skipping the article, one main factor was any VR helmet has you focusing on a screen or screens a few inches in front of your eyes. But the VR uses cues to make you think you are seeing objects at a distance. It is this disparity that may induce nausea no matter how fast the refresh rate or the fidelity of the images.

In the opinion of the author, of course.
Click to expand...
The problem with his theory is that much past 40, you simply can't focus the lens with the ciliary muscles any more -- the process is called "accommodation", and when presbyopia sets in you start to lose it. Mine is for all intents and purposes completely gone, so if his theory was correct I should be getting nausea from pretty much daily situations involving the inability to focus on anything up close.

I think commenter Lance Vance hit the nail on the head, the main issue is "vestibular disconnect", the brain receiving conflicting signals from the eyes and from the inner ear. I just think it's interesting that for some of us, the phenomenon only kicks in when the disconnect is in one direction but NOT AT ALL when it's in the other.
 
FastEddieB said:
For those skipping the article, one main factor was any VR helmet has you focusing on a screen or screens a few inches in front of your eyes. But the VR uses cues to make you think you are seeing objects at a distance. It is this disparity that may induce nausea no matter how fast the refresh rate or the fidelity of the images.

In the opinion of the author, of course.
Click to expand...
I would take that with a grain of salt. Quora is like Yahoo! Answers. Pretty much anyone can say pretty much anything.
 
Depth is almost always exaggerated, as the eye really isn't that good at seeing it. Couple that with even imperceptible lag, and you get power pukes. And fatigue (quickly).

I'm more than a little flabbergasted that people are discovering it now. This has been a known problem since the 90s, and it's why VR has never taken off. The problem is fundamental. It will always be there.
 
MAKG1 said:
Depth is almost always exaggerated, as the eye really isn't that good at seeing it. Couple that with even imperceptible lag, and you get power pukes. And fatigue (quickly).

I'm more than a little flabbergasted that people are discovering it now. This has been a known problem since the 90s, and it's why VR has never taken off. The problem is fundamental. It will always be there.
Click to expand...

And I sat in a couple of panel discussions at last years Game Developer Conference where some of the original pioneers in the VR field said as much. It's not resolution nor latency related. Interestingly they've had some success with painting a "nose" in the lower inside portion of each eye's display. But it doesn't fix all of it.

John
 
I never get sick flying, but if I'm a passenger in a small plane somebody else is flying, I have a couple of times gotten nauseated. I think it's because when I'm flying my body is connected to the movements of the airplane through the controls -- when I'm a passenger, all the little movements seem random and my brain doesn't like that.

In my defense though, one of the two times this has happened, we were doing aerobatics up to +3.8g/-0.5g. :)
 
falconkidding said:
Need a high resolution and a high refresh rate and the nausea goes away almost universally. I'd say the next version of the rift/vive will get the resolution fixed to where there is no more screen dooring. Bad thing is it will require high end gtx or amd cards or even SLI or crossfiring them to hit the 90fps min at 4kish resolution. Also the FOV if not wide enough can cause motion sickness I usually try to play games in the 90 degree+ range.

Basically in the high end stuff Vive/Rift its a whole lot tougher to get motion sick and give it another year or two till a new version comes out and it should be a nonissue for most people. Just need More POWAH!.
Click to expand...
I can handle Montezuma's Revenge (the roller coaster) just fine, but the Star Wars ride at Disney makes me ill. I think it's because the motion doesn't match what I see. It may be .05 seconds off, but I may also be sensitive to it. When I get that nausea, I close my eyes, and it tends to go away. Also, when the kids play 3D games, I get sick if I'm not playing. Weird...
Never had the same problem on aircraft, just on simulators where I don't have control.
 
Jeffythequick said:
I can handle Montezuma's Revenge (the roller coaster) just fine, but the Star Wars ride at Disney makes me ill. I think it's because the motion doesn't match what I see. It may be .05 seconds off, but I may also be sensitive to it. When I get that nausea, I close my eyes, and it tends to go away. Also, when the kids play 3D games, I get sick if I'm not playing. Weird...
Never had the same problem on aircraft, just on simulators where I don't have control.
Click to expand...

I agree that it's the fluid in your ears telling your brain you're sitting still, but your eyes telling it that you are moving. In the racing game I played on the vive, everything was great until I spun around in the tight corners. Going straight and making turns was fine, but spinning out got me feeling a little woozy.
 
I have been riding in airplanes since 1951 and flying airplanes, including aerobatics and fighters since 1964, and have never been even remotely nauseous.
About 15 to 20 minutes in a Redbird full-motion simulator is all I can stand before my gyros tumble.
My buddy, the hotshot instructor, is only good for 10 to 15 minutes in the Redbird.
VR glasses don't bother me at all. I think it's because I fly FPV drones and RC aircraft on a weekly basis.
 
Shepherd said:
I have been riding in airplanes since 1951 and flying airplanes, including aerobatics and fighters since 1964, and have never been even remotely nauseous.
About 15 to 20 minutes in a Redbird full-motion simulator is all I can stand before my gyros tumble.
My buddy, the hotshot instructor, is only good for 10 to 15 minutes in the Redbird.
VR glasses don't bother me at all. I think it's because I fly FPV drones and RC aircraft on a weekly basis.
Click to expand...

You can acclimatize to the simulators. It's not clear whether everybody can acclimatize to the VR goggles or not. Simulator sickness is exactly the disconnect between what you eyes tell your brain is happening and what your inner ear tells your brain is happening. VR sickness is, apparently, not entirely that. There was a reference above about focus length.

John
 
Yeah, I've been flying various sims for 20+ years, they never bothered me, but as stated I did get a little fluttery twice in airplanes as a passenger.
 
Sims have never bothered me, but I'm curious to see how I'd do with VR goggles. One day I'll have to give them a try.
 
I use an app called Trinus VR which projects your screen onto your phone for use with Google Cardboard. Couple that with TrackIR and you have a full motion 3d headset in a flight sim. It's pretty cool but you do get the occasional queasy moment...
 
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