Visual Approach under IFR

bstratt

bstratt

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Coming back into DPA on Saturday under an IFR flight plan, Chicago Approach cleared me for the visual approach to 2L. As I was coming up from the south this was virtually a straight in. About 5 miles out they told me to contact the tower. I did and gave them my position, altitude and N#. They told me to report 3 mile final for 2L. About the time I was reporting the 3 mile final the tower guy asked if I was IFR. I was surprised as I had assumed Chicago Approach had "handed me off". I replied I was and he told me I should have also announced on intial call up that I was on a visual approach. I apologized and said I would in the future.

Question: All other times on initial call up to the tower while under IFR I have never, to the best of my recollection, announced I was on a visual approach. Is this required? If so, why doesn't approach specify they have me on a visual during handoff?

Edit: I just saw this is post 500 for me! I know I don't measure up to EdFred but I have a life!:D Just kidding Ed!
 
First I've heard of this Barry. Has tower ever told you anything else that didn't make sense ;-).

IFR is normally handed off as you said. Perhaps center didn't call and tower was caught short. On the many approaches I have made, don't think I have ever announced I was IFR. It's normally, "XXXX tower, Baron 322KS inbound with Whiskey" (or whatever the ATIS is).

Best,

Dave
 
I normally tell the tower which approach I was on with the previous controller. Like, "Downtown tower, Nxxxx is with you on the visual to 8 right." or "Downtown tower, Nxxxx is with you on the ILS 27." I do it because I'm never sure how good the communication is between one facility and another, but I as far as I know it's not required. I've never been yelled at for it.

Chip
 
"with you" ??

Been playing MSFS 2004 again have we? LOL
 
gibbons said:
I normally tell the tower which approach I was on with the previous controller. Like, "Downtown tower, Nxxxx is with you on the visual to 8 right." or "Downtown tower, Nxxxx is with you on the ILS 27." I do it because I'm never sure how good the communication is between one facility and another, but I as far as I know it's not required. I've never been yelled at for it.

Chip
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Well, now that I think about it, I probably do say Visual runway what ever with informatin Whiskey. Didn't know it was required, but I usually call runway or approach just to be clear even when VF&R. But NEVER say 'with you' :D

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
But NEVER say 'with you' :D
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Is there a reason? That is how my CFI taught me to say it. I don't think I say it all the time, but am interested to hear why at least two of you (and presumably more) think it isn't the way make the call. :dunno:
 
Hi Gang
Thats the way I was taught also. When calling approch control or tower in the first call up it N***** with you. Now I only do this when I'm being handed off from one controller to the next. If as you say it's not correct to say N**** is with you what is the correct call up?

Regards Mike
 
With you:

It's a complete waste of band width. Of course you are with him/her, you're making the call. What does it accomplish? Would you tell them "not with you" if on a different frequency?

My enroute calls:

"Cherokee 2212R level 7000"
"Cherokee 2212R 3500 climbing 7000"
"Cherokee 2212R 6500 descending 3000"

Initial call to approach (after acknowledgement):

"Cherokee 2212R 5 east 4000 with Mike, Jet Center"

Initial call to tower

"Cherokee 2212R visual/ILS/GPS/LOC 24."

Of course I am with them. I am talking to them.
 
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N2212R said:
With you:

It's a complete waste of band width. Of course you are with him/her, you're making the call. What does it accomplish? Would you tell them "not with you" if on a different frequency?

My enroute calls:

"Cherokee 2212R level 7000"
"Cherokee 2212R 3500 climbing 7000"
"Cherokee 2212R 6500 descending 3000"

Initial call to approach (after acknowledgement):

"Cherokee 2212R 5 east 4000 with Mike, Jet Center"

Initial call to tower

"Cherokee 2212R visual/ILS/GPS/LOC 24."

Of course I am with them. I am talking to them.
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Ok Ed
I see what you are saying they should already know you are being handed off, so on the call up it should be Flint Approach Archer 8428S 15 north level 6000. I now can see why you say its wasted words.

Regards Mike
 
I thought I was going crazy, because I thought that I'd just heard it recently. But I went back to listen to one of The Finer Points podcasts in which he covers departure from Class C airspace and he says it in there.

After listening to Jason's podcasts, I wouldn't consider him to be a slouch. You can hear him saying "with you" at the 7:10 mark as he's transitioned to departure.

The Finer Points - Episode 30


I can certainly see your point, but I also don't see the harm. I think there is validity in saying it in the context of "You're expecting me and now I'm here".
 
I was taught "with you" as well so now even if i try not to it usually slips out. when it does, i just hope that Edfred isnt on frequency and then all will be well.

As an aside, after edfreds response to "Any traffic in the area please advise" with "I advise you read the AIM" I was flying with my boss on a charter and he said the phrase and i responded. He just kinda looked at me funny. I laughed inside.
 
flykelley said:
I now can see why you say its wasted words.
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Waste not, want not. After all, you might have need for those two words one day and you wouldn't want to have used them up wastefully. :dunno: :rolleyes: :D
 
I'm with you, Ed.:rofl:

Try getting away that coming into FXE....

And any traffic please advise....I really enjoy listening to the really meaningful additional information that provides on the CTAF!

Advise me, and I'll advise you, no need to ask, idjet.



N2212R said:
"with you" ??

Been playing MSFS 2004 again have we? LOL
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tonycondon said:
"I advise you read the AIM"
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Someday I just might do that...First I have to figure out what this POH thing is for.
 
I can see the point. It really is better radio work.

BTW, sorry for the thread hijack
 
FlyNE said:
I can certainly see your point, but I also don't see the harm. I think there is validity in saying it in the context of "You're expecting me and now I'm here".
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There are lots of pilots out there spewing out the dreaded "with you" from Cub flyers to JumboJet drivers, but it's still a waste of breath. Worse yet that particular phrase is like fingernails on slate to many ATC types (regardless of what level of pilot utters it) and leaving it out may endear you with the controllers managing your flight.

As to the "validity" you have already conveyed the fact that you are "here" by the time your N number rolls off your tongue. As posted already, try to consider how and when you might convey the opposite of the implied meaning:

"Atlanta Approach, N5432 is not with you, level 5000".

Besides the fact that this is could never be true at the instant it's transmitted, I can't imagine why a pilot would ever want to advise of such a condition (I'm talking to you, but not present).

As to the original question, it's clear that the tower controller simply forgot that the inbound was IFR and figured the easiest way to figure that out was to ask the pilot. I suspect that the only reason he wanted to know was that he's required to close the flight plan if it's IFR. There could have been a separation issue (holding an IFR departure) but I'm not certain how that works in Class D during good VMC.

Think of this as a parallel to a pilot asking ATC if he's cleared to land because the pilot can't remember for sure if he already received that instruction. Rather than make an assumption the controller asked the pilot so there was less opportunity for an error.

All that said, I usually include the word "Visual" when coming into a Class D IFR. It's redundant but helps to insure everyone is on the same page, so in this case (unlike the "with you" thing) the reduncancy not only "doesn't hurt", it can actually help.
 
bstratt said:
Question: All other times on initial call up to the tower while under IFR I have never, to the best of my recollection, announced I was on a visual approach. Is this required? If so, why doesn't approach specify they have me on a visual during handoff?
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I don't know the legal answer, but whenever I am handed over to the tower, I always report my call number and type of approach. For example, "Baltimore Tower, Saratoga 12345, visual 33 right," or "Lancaster Tower, Cessna 12345, VOR 8."
 
Might be useless words and such, but sounds like someone's pet peeve more than anything.
 
flykelley said:
Ok Ed
I see what you are saying they should already know you are being handed off, so on the call up it should be Flint Approach Archer 8428S 15 north level 6000. I now can see why you say its wasted words.

Regards Mike
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On a handoff from Center/Approach --> Center/Approach I don't give them my location, it's already been coordinated, and they already know who and where I am. The altitude call out is for altimeter settings and verification purposes.

Now, the exception is when I am talking with ZMP (or other center) and one controller has a few frequencies and he says "Switch to my frequency 120.85" I will switch (if I am not already on it, since I know the frequencies I am going to get from 9D9 --> 6Y9) and simply call "2212R on 120.85" I'm still with the same controller, so I don't bother with the altitude call out.
 
AirBaker said:
Might be useless words and such, but sounds like someone's pet peeve more than anything.
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Does the AIM suggest "with you" as proper phraseology ?
 
Sorry guys! I was just poking some fun at Chip! Didn't mean to start a big debate.

When the radio frequency is congested and many folks are trying to get things done crisply and concisely, extra words, lack of organization and unnecessary calls hurt all of us. When it's not busy, things that add color and brighten up everyone's day are great--they turn the mundane into fun.

"with you" and many other unnecessary and colorful phrases are fine when it's not busy. Problem I see is where folks begin to use them all the time, they do it when it's congested also and someone else may not be able to get on frequency at a critical time.

None of us is perfect; we all do things that may or may not be necessay, but this sounds sloppy to me when things are busy. As does a long ahhhhhh before each transmission.

When IFR, one must listen to the controller and follow instructions. If one can't get on frequency to divert or for other reasons, it can cause a problem and perhaps an accident. It's not just 'with you'; it's all the talking parrot stuff that's not necessary. When it's not busy----fine, whatever. When it get's real congested, short, precise transmissions and no unnecessary ones are greatly appreciated.

I can share a story or two if you like, but let me just say, I've had to divert in thunderstorms with out permission because I couldn't get on frequency. Bad enough when it's just busy and everyone is professional. In this case, if was a guy that just couldn't get his thoughts organized asking for VFR flight following that tied things up for over five minutes. The controller shares some blame here also for not just saying 'unable'. But he was trying to be nice while I was pointed into some red level 3 and 4 stuff and I wasn't a happy camper.

'Nough said!

Didn't mean to make a Federal case out of 'with you'. If that's the worse thing you are doing (adding unnecessary verbage) you're probably doin better than me!!

Best,

Dave
 
I don't see why everyone makes a big deal out of it. Take a stopwatch and say "With you". Time it. Now tell me again that it's such a waste of bandwidth (and include your times). I've heard much worse wastes of bandwidth from local joe schmoe asking jimmy about the latest news while taxiing with three aircraft in the pattern.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I can share a story or two if you like, but let me just say, I've had to divert in thunderstorms with out permission because I couldn't get on frequency. Bad enough when it's just busy and everyone is professional. In this case, if was a guy that just couldn't get his thoughts organized asking for VFR flight following that tied things up for over five minutes. The controller shares some blame here also for not just saying 'unable'. But he was trying to be nice while I was pointed into some red level 3 and 4 stuff and I wasn't a happy camper.
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But you admit that's not due to someone using the phrase "with you", which is what people seem to be complaining about, right? Yes, getting your thoughts together and forming coherent consise statements/requests to ATC before pressing the PTT is absolutely necessary, but that has little to do with the phrase "with you".
 
bstratt said:
Coming back into DPA on Saturday under an IFR flight plan, Chicago Approach cleared me for the visual approach to 2L. As I was coming up from the south this was virtually a straight in. About 5 miles out they told me to contact the tower. I did and gave them my position, altitude and N#. They told me to report 3 mile final for 2L. About the time I was reporting the 3 mile final the tower guy asked if I was IFR. I was surprised as I had assumed Chicago Approach had "handed me off". I replied I was and he told me I should have also announced on intial call up that I was on a visual approach. I apologized and said I would in the future.

Question: All other times on initial call up to the tower while under IFR I have never, to the best of my recollection, announced I was on a visual approach. Is this required? If so, why doesn't approach specify they have me on a visual during handoff?

Edit: I just saw this is post 500 for me! I know I don't measure up to EdFred but I have a life!:D Just kidding Ed!
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I have had that happen twice. I have also heard people come on and announce they are on the visual. It seems to happen on clear VFR days when a busy TRACON just want to hand you off and close out the flight plan.

YOu might want to add to your 'with you' call for the tower to adivise you of any traffic in the area.:D
 
wbarnhill said:
But you admit that's not due to someone using the phrase "with you", which is what people seem to be complaining about, right? Yes, getting your thoughts together and forming coherent consise statements/requests to ATC before pressing the PTT is absolutely necessary, but that has little to do with the phrase "with you".
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When I hear "with you" or "any traffic..." my mind immediately translates this to:

"I'm retarded"
and
"I'm lazy"

I hope that I am not within 50 miles of those yohans, and we are not on intersecting courses.

50 bucks says Troy Martin used these terms.
 
Wow, now that's a little harsh...at least for the "with you" part. That is how I was taught to call up.

While I don't agree that this contributes greatly to frequency congestion, I've admited that I was wrong and you were right. I even plan to fix my calls thanks to your insight, but I certainly don't appreciate being called retarded for inserting an extra two words into my call.

I'm all with you on the "please advise" side of things, but let's keep things in perspective.
 
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I often here folks ask why one pilot gets a transition through Class B when another doesn't. You won't read it anywhere, but in speaking to several controllers I discuss this kind of stuff with, how you come across on the radio can make the difference.

Clear, concise, organized gets first choice. Sounds like you know what you're doing and you're not going to be any trouble.

Since I'm ex-military, we were extremely careful about things like this. Nothing worse than trying to tell something important to someone in a combat environment and being blocked. So, I'm probably more conscious of it than others may be.

If you get in IMC with storms holding up traffic and really need some help, you may see things a little differently.


Never said it's just those two words. When one gets used to loose terminology, it leads to more laxness.


Best,

Dave
 
With you, without you is a matter of what you were taught and what feels good to you, if a controller tells me to go to his frequency so and so, i will announce with you on that freq. when i call up a new sector i always begin with good morning, afternoon or evening, gets them listening for that point when the N number comes up.

Other than that one use i never say with you, more importantly i dont consider anyone who does to be retarded or lazy,

I do however when handed off to tower while on an ifr flight plan, announce what i am doing, visual for whatever, ils for whatever, marker for whatever. Vfr traffic should also confirm, downwind for whatever RW, final or whatever, just as a confirmation in high density area,
 
N2212R said:
Does the AIM suggest "with you" as proper phraseology ?
Click to expand...

Does it say not to use it? I could argue for/against either side. Not to mention that us 'weekend warrior' types are doing the arguing.

In my opinion, even though I don't use the phrase, as long as the wording is clear, concise, and gets the point accross it's all good.
 
AirBaker said:
Does it say not to use it? I could argue for/against either side. Not to mention that us 'weekend warrior' types are doing the arguing.

In my opinion, even though I don't use the phrase, as long as the wording is clear, concise, and gets the point accross it's all good.
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Well, the AIM didn't previously say "don't use any traffic in the area, please advise" and gee-golly-gosh now it does. :D
 
N2212R said:
Well, the AIM didn't previously say "don't use any traffic in the area, please advise" and gee-golly-gosh now it does. :D
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I guess we'll just have to wait until that next edition huh? ...to be continued.
 
It's all Barry's fault. He started the thread.
 
N2212R said:
When I hear "with you" or "any traffic..." my mind immediately translates this to:

"I'm retarded"
and
"I'm lazy"

I hope that I am not within 50 miles of those yohans, and we are not on intersecting courses.

50 bucks says Troy Martin used these terms.
Click to expand...

Yep! :yes:

But I won't take the bet. I would not want to lose
 
Sorry, I don't agree about the "with you" call. I use "with you" or "checking in" to indicate that I've been handed off to this controller, and that I'm not simply popping up out of nowhere. If I have not been handed off and am making an initial call to the controller I don't use either term. In 30 years of flying I've never been chastized for doing it - Well, until now.

N2212R said:
When I hear "with you" or "any traffic..." my mind immediately translates this to:

"I'm retarded"
and
"I'm lazy"

I hope that I am not within 50 miles of those yohans, and we are not on intersecting courses.
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(Going to be hard getting a seat in the front of the Extra next year Ed if you're serious about staying 50 miles away :rofl: :rofl: )

Chip
(retarded and lazy)
 
From Section 3 para: 5-3-1 of the AIM

Where is "with you" mentioned as being a good and proper communications technique/phrase?
b. ATC Frequency Change Procedures.​
1. The following phraseology will be used by controllers to effect a frequency change:​
EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) contact (facility name or location name and terminal function) (frequency) at (time, fix, or altitude).​
NOTE-
Pilots are expected to maintain a listening watch on the transferring controller's frequency until the time, fix, or altitude specified. ATC will omit frequency change restrictions whenever pilot compliance is expected upon receipt.​
2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:​
(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.​
EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).​
NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.​
(b) When operating in a nonradar environment:​
(1) On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's present position, altitude and time estimate for the next reporting point.​
EXAMPLE-
(Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), (position), (altitude), ESTIMATING (reporting point) AT (time).​
(2) After initial contact, when a position report will be made, the pilot should give the controller a complete position report.​
EXAMPLE-
(Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), (position), (time), (altitude), (type of flight plan), (ETA and name of next reporting point), (the name of the next succeeding reporting point), AND (remarks).​
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
AIM, Position Reporting, Paragraph 5-3-2.[/SIZE]​
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Any other opinions, please advise! :D:D
 
I heard both a B-52 pilot and a E-4B pilot today say they were "with you". Somebody call Stratcom and tell them they need to get those retarded pilots out of the sky!
 
FlyNE said:
I heard both a B-52 pilot and a E-4B pilot today say they were "with you". Somebody call Stratcom and tell them they need to get those retarded pilots out of the sky!
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Man that gets my dander up!! My tax dollars going to provide substandard training to AF pilots.

They probably were trained through some sort of exchange program and had a Navy IP!! :D:rofl::D
 
FlyNE said:
Wow, now that's a little harsh...at least for the "with you" part. That is how I was taught to call up.

While I don't agree that this contributes greatly to frequency congestion, I've admited that I was wrong and you were right. I even plan to fix my calls thanks to your insight, but I certainly don't appreciate being called retarded for inserting an extra two words into my call.

I'm all with you on the "please advise" side of things, but let's keep things in perspective.
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Ed does get a bit heated up over this kind of thing:D and I agree it's not usually a big issue. To be fair to Ed, he didn't say anyone who says "with you" or "any traffic..." is retarded, he just said that when he hears those words his opinion of the speaker is rather diminished. And I'll even admit that I have said those dreaded two words more than once in the past but I weaned myself several years ago when controller friend remarked that that particular phrase just drove him nuts. For me the best reason for avoiding such nonsense is because it annoys a lot of ATC types and I don't want to annoy them in any way I can avoid.
 
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