Visual Approach Question - Control Swap

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deltawing

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deltawing
I have a question in regard to visual approaches and I was hoping someone can clarify it for me. A few days ago we were returning to Base XXX and we were being vectored around from the West into a right downwind for Runway 27R. I was the PNF on the Right Seat and the PF was on the Left Seat. It was day time and the visibility was excellent. While on right downwind, I had full view of the runway, the PF because of the plane type and seat, did not but told me to tell ATC that we did to get clearance for a visual approach and we did. I noticed we had some wind from the North and it was blowing us into the runway. To avoid getting to close and end up with a tight turn, I suggested to the PF to let me fly the downwind, base and some of the final turn until he gets a good view of the runway so he can take the plane back for the landing. The PF almost flipped by my suggestion. Was I wrong to suggest this?
 
You were wrong to fly with such a bozo. Sounds like he wants his right-seater to be singing this song. Other than that, from a CRM and safety standpoint, good suggestion.
 
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There was nothing wrong with your suggestion. The PF on the other hand would appear to have a need for some therapy time if that suggestion caused such an unwarranted response. Probably would be re-evaluating going on more flights with this person.
 
I would probably just said "turn left 10 degrees for parallel track" and continued with PNF duties. It's not that big a deal and no real reason for change of roles for that short period of time.
 
Thanks guys for such valuable input. My question stands since after the flight, the PF confronted me saying that this suggestion is something unheard off. I mentioned that this is something we practiced with some other outfits, discussed with Flight Safety International and considered a good use of CRM since both pilots should be ready to take the controls at any time to assist. He just laughed at me by saying: “Well, who knows what other crazy things they do in those outfits you flew with and that he did not believe this practice could be something FSI would agree with....” I did not want to continue the debate to avoid more confrontation. What do you think?
 
deltawing said:
Thanks guys for such valuable input. My question stands since after the flight, the PF confronted me saying that this suggestion is something unheard off. I mentioned that this is something we practiced with some other outfits, discussed with Flight Safety International and considered a good use of CRM since both pilots should be ready to take the controls at any time to assist. He just laughed at me by saying: “Well, who knows what other crazy things they do in those outfits you flew with and that he did not believe this practice could be something FSI would agree with....” I did not want to continue the debate to avoid more confrontation. What do you think?
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Just like every other profession in the world, there are jerks... In my profession the saying is "ignore the jerk, either he/she will get promoted or fired, either way they are no longer your problem".
 
What type operation is this? Are you both being paid to fly?

I ask because it sounds like this was some sort of commercial operation. If I think back on all my 121 and 135 flying, the past 15 years or so, I'd have to say I've never heard of anyone suggesting the guy in the right seat fly the right traffic and the guy in the left seat fly the left traffic.

So, that would make it, for me, 'unheard' of and your left seat guys statement was correct.

Also, flying a visual approach is pretty basic stuff. To suggest you take over and fly it for him is pretty condescending. On top of all that there is a co-pilot / captain relationship and it sounds like in this story you were the co-pilot asking the captain if, in the name of flying a proper pattern, they might like you to do it for them.

I'm not surprised the guy you were flying with said what he did and I am surprised the above posts took the position they did. This forum never ceases to amaze me...
 
Well, Captain, just so you know, you're that kinda guy we don't wanna fly with.
 
I am a lowly single engine piston person and have no issues with right hand pattern visability from the left seat, and so forgive my ignorance. Is it common practice for the right seat pilot to fly the right hand pattern in the type of plane being discussed, or would it be expected that the left seat pilot should be able to safely fly the right hand pattern.

To me if this was a matter of safety then the OP is 100% right in his feelings. If it was a matter of convenience, or just that the OP wanted to get some flying time in then maybe the issue is more of a communication barrier than anything else.
 
wabower said:
I would probably just said "turn left 10 degrees for parallel track" and continued with PNF duties. It's not that big a deal and no real reason for change of roles for that short period of time.
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I'm with Wayne on this one....if you are PNF and the Left seat guy is flying the approach, I'd say your first reponsibility if you think he might have difficulty completing the turn smoothly is to point out what you see (wind and proximity to the runway abeam) and recommend opening the runway a bit - then monitoring and calling out what he can't see. I suspect that sort of CRM would have gone over better than going straight to the suggestion that you take over.

We weren't there, so we don't know how you came across when you made your suggestion - it is possible that he was a prima donna that is easily offended, or maybe you came across as implying that you were God's gift to aviators and he should kiss your ERAU ring.

.....which leads to an interesting thought...maybe you aren't real.. maybe, this is one of Captain's latest forum ploys....posting as two different people to see if the rest of the forum disagrees with him....:dunno:
 
Like I said, this forum never ceases to amaze me.
 
Fearless Tower said:
.....which leads to an interesting thought...maybe you aren't real.. maybe, this is one of Captain's latest forum ploys....posting as two different people to see if the rest of the forum disagrees with him....:dunno:
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Nah, he would have titled the thread, "Is this pilot a jerk?"
 
wabower said:
I would probably just said "turn left 10 degrees for parallel track" and continued with PNF duties. It's not that big a deal and no real reason for change of roles for that short period of time.
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I agree. Downwind is not the place to be discussing details about coordinating a control handoff that is not normally practiced in your company. This is a good way to miss something on the checklist, etc...
 
EdFred said:
Nah, he would have titled the thread, "Is this pilot a jerk?"
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This.

Besides, have I ever tried to trick anyone with a 'ploy'? (Jerk threads aside...)
 
deltawing said:
Thanks guys for such valuable input. My question stands since after the flight, the PF confronted me saying that this suggestion is something unheard off. I mentioned that this is something we practiced with some other outfits, discussed with Flight Safety International and considered a good use of CRM since both pilots should be ready to take the controls at any time to assist. He just laughed at me by saying: “Well, who knows what other crazy things they do in those outfits you flew with and that he did not believe this practice could be something FSI would agree with....” I did not want to continue the debate to avoid more confrontation. What do you think?
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With the additional information and the now obvious lack of cockpit equality, I would agree with Wayne. Make the course correction suggestion and carry on without a change in roles. I did not conceive this as a revenue flight in the original post.
 
Holy cow. People...let's interject some reality here.

The regs SPECIFICALLY state it's okay to lose contact with the runway if due to normal maneuvering aircraft structures obstruct it. It's not lying, it's common sense and it's legal.

Do people really think this happens at airlines or any commercial aviation? FO's flying all the right traffic and Captains flying all the left traffic? Waiving off a visual approach just before turning base because the runway is behind you?

What does happen is inexperienced FO's subtly tell their Captains they don't like the way they are doing something by 'suggesting' they take over.

It doesn't bother me the complete ignorance of this. But to then haul off from such a vague OP and call the Captain a 'Bozo' and you shouldn't fly with him or all the other stuff is way over the top and out of line.

Suggesting to take over the pattern for the captain was out of line too but it sounds like the Captain handled it. Except feelings got hurt and they came here to try to get support...and here's the punch line...THEY GOT THAT SUPPORT!

...never ceases to amaze me. I'll stand by that.
 
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I think the whole thread is a secret ploy to get Captain's panties in a bunch. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
I think the whole thread is a secret ploy to get Captain's panties in a bunch. ;)
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And the thread was instigated by Captain...just how weird is that?
 
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Clark1961 said:
And the thread was instigated by Captain...just how weird is that?
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I didn't instigate this thread. Simply pointed out the obvious.

From my perspective this thread is representative of the current Nanny State we live in where everyones 'feelings' are so important. Guy got his feelings hurt when he was rightly slapped for trying to take over from the more experienced pilot.

He comes here complaining about it and everyone immediately assures him 'it's okay', you were right, he should have let you fly. A respected member and prior management of this forum even called the Captain a 'Bozo' despite not hearing a word of his side.

The OP's post had so many holes in it you could drive a truck through it and I did.

But still, lets coddle him. He's great pilot and should be exalted for coming up with such a brilliant plan. Screw the Captain, he should have known our OP is important and knows the best way to fly a traffic pattern.

And then there's me. I make a spot on post that drives to the point and illuminates the obvious. Any credit for that from fellow posters? Nope.

My panties aren't in a wad. I think it's hilarious and I couldn't care less.


BTW Fearless Tower, I didn't go to ERAU, I don't have a ring, and I'm not the OP.
 
LOL. A full page to say you're not concerned at all.

I love me some Interwebz! ;)
 
Captain said:
I didn't instigate this thread. Simply pointed out the obvious.

From my perspective this thread is representative of the current Nanny State we live in where everyones 'feelings' are so important. Guy got his feelings hurt when he was rightly slapped for trying to take over from the more experienced pilot.

He comes here complaining about it and everyone immediately assures him 'it's okay', you were right, he should have let you fly. A respected member and prior management of this forum even called the Captain a 'Bozo' despite not hearing a word of his side.

The OP's post had so many holes in it you could drive a truck through it and I did.

But still, lets coddle him. He's great pilot and should be exalted for coming up with such a brilliant plan. Screw the Captain, he should have known our OP is important and knows the best way to fly a traffic pattern.

And then there's me. I make a spot on post that drives to the point and illuminates the obvious. Any credit for that from fellow posters? Nope.

My panties aren't in a wad. I think it's hilarious and I couldn't care less.


BTW Fearless Tower, I didn't go to ERAU, I don't have a ring, and I'm not the OP.
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me doth think thou protesth too much!
 
deltawing said:
... I suggested to the PF to let me fly the downwind, base and some of the final turn until he gets a good view of the runway so he can take the plane back for the landing. The PF almost flipped by my suggestion. Was I wrong to suggest this?
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Yes you were. Switching controls back and forth on base leg was a really bad idea.
 
Captain said:
BTW Fearless Tower, I didn't go to ERAU, I don't have a ring, and I'm not the OP.
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Yes, I am well aware of that. I was joking......and I wasn't specifically referring to you in that ERAU ring kissing comment...just the type of FO who is a little full of himself.....which then led to the connection with some of your recent 'jerk' threads.

Captain said:
My panties aren't in a wad. I think it's hilarious and I couldn't care less.
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If your panties aren't in a wad, then why are you so concerned to point out you didn't go to ERAU? I agree, you have a valid point about the one-sidedness of the original post, but your posts sure don't sound like you think it is hilarious.
 
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