Video: real life weather flying

Sam D

Sam D

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
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Petaluma, CA
Display Name
Sam D
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Petaluma (o69)
I watch Steveo's videos for entertainment and dreaming about TBM850's, but thought his latest video was instructive on a number of levels.
  • Using on-board radar (made it very clear to me the perils of using nexrad in the same situation)
  • Staying ahead of the plane (anticipating where the missed approach was going to take him)
  • Working proactively with ATC
 
He's got some good videos. That flight definitely looked a little hairy for a small turboprop.
 
Interesting to see that his "Nexrad" is so different from mine (ADS-B in my case) -- I don't see any "looping" displayed, which is my main source of information for cell location and strength (since you can extrapolate to both current time and your future crossing time). Also, not having the Stormscope input in a convective environment would make me feel nearly blind (radar shows water, not convection). I have navigated safely around major FL thunderstorms (and elsewhere) for years with only Stormscope and ATC input (no ADS-B or radar) and barely hit any serious bumps.
But this guy is good in thinking ahead and being proactive. Also, his video production and presentation is excellent.
 
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Good post RD. I'm happy with Nexrad overlaid by my Stormscope. It works well for our isolated Texas thunderstorms.
 
Very cool video! He didn't really get into any weather, but excellent avoidance maneuvers. I think with some more wx experience he will lose that extreme jitteriness. He is on his radio game and cockpit management that is certain.
 
So I just watched the video while I ate lunch at my desk....

I'd like to know tops over the airport before I judged. But I think what he said at the end indicates that rather than lose his jitters, he wouldn't make the approach again. Worried about the miss could force a try you might not otherwise make.

He did great when told to expect the published missed - "I'm not doing a published". Not taking control is what can kill pilots in these situations.

Great video.
 
Good stuff there! Love that FL weather when you can make it work. They looked like 'good' jitters to me - the kind the make you feel real good about the flight afterwards.

I feel pretty good about just having Nexrad. You just have to dial it back a bit more.
 
NEXRAD in situations like the video is almost like having a failed Instrument and keeping it in your scan, I'd go for no information over misinformation, maybe just leave it on the TAF or TFRs or something, frankly I actually wouldn't want the old radar to even display for close range CB avoidance in IMC.
 
James331 said:
NEXRAD in situations like the video is almost like having a failed Instrument and keeping it in your scan, I'd go for no information over misinformation, maybe just leave it on the TAF or TFRs or something, frankly I actually wouldn't want the old radar to even display for close range CB avoidance in IMC.
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I actually agree with James here. I consider Nexrad-based weather (like ADS-B in my own case) to be next to useless unless looped, so you can extrapolate to present time, and future time (when you'll actually get near that cell). In the video the Nexrad display seemed static to me, with no looping (or verbal reference to it along with the required mental extrapolations) evident. Also, as I mentioned above, I consider Stormscope crucial when flying in a convective environment.
 
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There is a reason many operations require onboard radar for IMC ops near CBs, personally I view a storm scope about the same as the old school just using an ADF to find cells trick, if it aint onboard radar, I'm not going IMC around CBs, its just not worth it.
 
RotorDude said:
I actually agree with James here. I consider Nexrad-based weather (like ADS-B in my own case) to be next to useless unless looped, so you can extrapolate to present time, and future time (when you'll actually get near that cell). In the video the Nexrad display seemed static to me, with no looping (or verbal reference to it along with the required mental extrapolations) evident. Also, as I mentioned above, I consider Stormscope crucial when flying in a convective environment.
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I believe he's using on-board radar not nexrad in the video (unless he's got that on FF).
 
Sam D said:
I believe he's using on-board radar not nexrad in the video (unless he's got that on FF).
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He used both in the video. NEXRAD for a big picture and radar for fine tuning and finding the nasty stuff.
 
James331 said:
There is a reason many operations require onboard radar for IMC ops near CBs, personally I view a storm scope about the same as the old school just using an ADF to find cells trick, if it aint onboard radar, I'm not going IMC around CBs, its just not worth it.
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I agree that with Stormscope alone, you need to either have a visual on the CBs, or rely heavily on ATC's help. Either way, you really shouldn't be messing around with CBs up close and personal. If you throw ADS-B in looping mode into the mix, you should still be very wary, esp. of the "business end" of the cells, but with the combination of your eyes (primary tool whenever possible), ATC (good for advice when needed), Stormscope (great for avoiding turbulence, even without visible lightning) and looping ADS-B (great for predicting where the cell will be when you get closest to it), you stand a good chance of getting home safely. Experience counts a lot, too.
 
Just remember ATC is also using more or less NEXRAD.

flying-imc-around.jpg
 
James331 said:
Just remember ATC is also using more or less NEXRAD.

flying-imc-around.jpg
Click to expand...

I don't think that's right. At least, not in the tower I visited. But their detail wasn't as... deep. But it was real time.


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I've had ATC warn me about some stuff and not see other stuff that disagreed with my onboard radar.

Think it's different between ATC, and a tower with its own on sight radar??
 
I just know it was real time but didn't see as much detail. Not multicolored. Maybe an ATC guy can chime in.


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ntinkle said:
Here's a good description:
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2006/Oct/6581/Revised ATC Terms for Weather Radar Echoes.pdf
Description matches what I saw.
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I couldn't find anything about freshness/latency of the display in that document. Also, it's over 10 years old, so I wonder how current it is compared to today's latest technology. And I too have seen many situations where my own onboard data (combination of looping ADS-B, Stormscope, plus eyeballs) seems more accurate than ATC's information, which is why I take their weather avoidance advice with a big grain of salt nowadays.
 
I threw that bit of accelerant in here on purpose just to get the usual responses but I had no idea how easy it was.

I still call BS on the Nexrad-only nay sayers - it's a total game changer. You just have to know your limitations.

Carry on
 
RotorDude said:
I couldn't find anything about freshness/latency of the display in that document.
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"Terminal (ASR based) systems show near “real time” echoes."

The article also explains why y'all see things they don't and why it's limited in their scope.


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ntinkle said:
"Terminal (ASR based) systems show near “real time” echoes."
The article also explains why y'all see things they don't and why it's limited in their scope.
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Yes, I know their "echoes" are near real time, since I assume they are produced by their own local radar. But my understanding is that they get a lot more than just their own radar for weather, i.e. a NEXRAD feed like we do in the cockpit. And it's that "enhanced weather" latency that is unclear to me (same as ours? fresher?), and not mentioned (AFAICT) in the article.
Would be nice to hear from one of the ATC experts here.
 
I've not seen it, but have only been in two centers - local KABI and DFW. But even if they did, there is no way they would give you vectors based on that. And I really don't think they do.


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ntinkle said:
I've not seen it, but have only been in two centers - local KABI and DFW. But even if they did, there is no way they would give you vectors based on that. And I really don't think they do.
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I very rarely get ATC-initiated vectors around weather, regardless of what they base it on. Most typically, they tell me something like, "be advised there is an area of moderate precipitation about 20 miles southwest of your position."
And I may respond that I'd like "20 degrees left to deviate around the weather."
Or I may simply reply, "Roger", if I don't think the weather will be an issue.
Most of the time it would be me initiating the deviation request when needed, in a similar fashion.
 
Meh, NEXRAD is still really useful.

If it's five minutes behind, ok. So don't get yourself in a situation where you don't have enough buffer where five minute old data could hurt you. That's not hard to do. Just don't try to use it to shoot a 3 mile gap between moderate-heavy precip.
 
RotorDude said:
I very rarely get ATC-initiated vectors around weather, regardless of what they base it on. Most typically, they tell me something like, "be advised there is an area of moderate precipitation about 20 miles southwest of your position."
And I may respond that I'd like "20 degrees left to deviate around the weather."
Or I may simply reply, "Roger", if I don't think the weather will be an issue.
Most of the time it would be me initiating the deviation request when needed, in a similar fashion.
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Last time I was up with storms everywhere around here, ATC was vectoring people based on their radar like crazy. Even arguing with a guy who was insisting his NEXRAD didn't show what they saw. In the end, ATC basically said to do what you want and gave him the freedom to deviate 20 degrees left or right.

So they will vector for weather in my experience.
 
Bonchie said:
Meh, NEXRAD is still really useful.

If it's five minutes behind, ok. So don't get yourself in a situation where you don't have enough buffer where five minute old data could hurt you. That's not hard to do. Just don't try to use it to shoot a 3 mile gap between moderate-heavy precip.
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Ever seen a easy going little green blip change into a very angry airplane eating cloud, doesn't even take 5 minutes.
 
James331 said:
Ever seen a easy going little green blip change into a very angry airplane eating cloud, doesn't even take 5 minutes.
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No, I haven't see a light green go red in under 5 minutes, especially not when they are isolated by themselves (i.e. not green rings around moderate around heavy precip). But whatever you say. Not worth arguing about.

I stand by the comment. NEXRAD is still really useful as long as you use it correctly. If that means using it to go around all precip to avoid your proposed situation, then use it that way. I'd still rather know something than know nothing.
 
Bonchie said:
Last time I was up with storms everywhere around here, ATC was vectoring people based on their radar like crazy.
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If you fly much in the summer afternoons around Texas, you get lots of suggested vectors based on their returns.
 
Bonchie said:
No, I haven't see a light green go red in under 5 minutes, especially not when they are isolated by themselves (i.e. not green rings around moderate around heavy precip). But whatever you say. Not worth arguing about.

I stand by the comment. NEXRAD is still really useful as long as you use it correctly. If that means using it to go around all precip to avoid your proposed situation, then use it that way. I'd still rather know something than know nothing.
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I'm not making a argument, just asking a question.

Have you had ATC point out areas to avoid or that were clear which your onboard radar called BS on?

Think this last year alone that's happened a dozen or so times, or I've had to deviate around a cell ATC didn't see yet.

NEXRAD cool for lots of stuff, TAFs, METARs, TFRs, trending weather a few hundred out at your destination to help with planning, oh yeah, but for close range stuff in IMC, well
image.jpg
 
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Bonchie said:
Last time I was up with storms everywhere around here, ATC was vectoring people based on their radar like crazy. Even arguing with a guy who was insisting his NEXRAD didn't show what they saw. In the end, ATC basically said to do what you want and gave him the freedom to deviate 20 degrees left or right.
So they will vector for weather in my experience.
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In my experience, ATC generally wants to keep you safe. So what happens is that they start with letting you know where the "weather" is, then if they see you are not diverting they might suggest a heading. But typically the pilot pre-empts them by asking for a deviation, and generally they accept it. If the pilot doesn't seem proactive, then they get a bit more aggressive/anxious, and suggest a deviation. The pilot then may still come back with a "counter offer", i.e. his/her own request, and they generally accept that too, traffic permitting.
So on the whole it's a give-and-take situation, with the more experienced (and/or better equipped) pilots pretty much asking and getting what they want in advance, and the less experienced (and/or worse equipped) tend to interact more with ATC. It's very rare for ATC to just issue a vector out of the blue for weather, rather than a suggested deviation.
 
Fascinating video. He did not look stressed at all. Definatly a Pro
 
NEXRAD/XM/ADS-B is good for strategic planning, Onboard radar is good for tactical planning. I would not use anything except on board radar for deviating around cells that are closer than 20 miles to me.
 
James331 said:
NEXRAD in situations like the video is almost like having a failed Instrument and keeping it in your scan, I'd go for no information over misinformation, maybe just leave it on the TAF or TFRs or something, frankly I actually wouldn't want the old radar to even display for close range CB avoidance in IMC.
Click to expand...

He had on-board radar and NEXRAD and he used them both. NEXRAD to get the big picture and the on-board radar to pick his way through. He even noted the limitations of NEXRAD as well as the on-board radar in terms of where it's pointed. I certainly wouldn't have made that flight but then, I'm also a chickenchit.
 
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