VFR vs IFR - Mountains

skidoo

skidoo

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skidoo
After my weekend flight and viewing the dancing with clouds thread, it sparked a question. My VFR route over some Montana Rocky mountains had some valleys within gliding distance anywhere along the flight. But, on this day, there was many valley areas with ground fog and one major field along the route had IFR conditions on the field. As I passed by, it was sunny and clear except for a patch of fog over the field. My destination was clear.

I previously posted a thread with a picture of low clouds in a valley area and asked if one would fly over that route. Many responses replied no way! I see the point that if the engine quit, one is screwed with an emergency landing in possible IMC conditions.

So, that got me to wondering how those with their IR may view that differently. In other words, what would be the difference in risk by flying VFR over the top of fog in clear conditions, vs an IR rated pilot flying in IMC over the same area with fog that they couldn't see anyway? If the engine quits, either way one is screwed. Does an IR pilot feel less at risk? Might they have more confidence in their engine than a VFR pilot?
 
I'm only a baby PP with no IR, but I'd say having the IR doesn't help you much. IR training gives you the skills needed to fly an instrument approach, which can get you through clouds that preclude a safe visual approach.

That skill doesn't help you much if you're sans engine and unable to maintain the altitude minimums defined for the documented approaches. Aside from having an easier time than a non-IR pilot of maintaining a stable attitude while passing through IMC on the way down, an IR won't make you any better prepared to land after breaking out of the clouds 200' above a forest.
 
It depends on a few factors not the least of which is the IR pilot's experience and comfort level. Just because you have an IR does not mean that you would be ok. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable keeping it shiny side up but that doesn't mean that you won't end up flying it shiny side up into a rock wall.

Altitude of the flight above the layer of fog or clouds and the valley floor also makes a difference.Keep in mind in that situation when you loose an engine you are not going to be able to file a flight plan or get a pop up clearance your clearly in an emergency situation. when flying the valley you need to have a firm grip on your situational awareness I would probably even have the approach plates out and ready and denote where I was in relation to the approach course because that approach is going to have no opportunity for a go around. I have flown over valleys in the east that were fogged in. If your going to fly in Northern PA in the fall its kind of hard to avoid. And I've landed at airports with fog over part of it. Here at least that Valley fog is often times not on the valley floor so if you had to break through it in an emergency you could very well have at least some distance between the base and the rock to make a quick decision.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the IR does not give you 'THE ANSWER' it just gives you more options and perhaps a greater comfort level
 
skidoo said:
what would be the difference in risk by flying VFR over the top of fog in clear conditions, vs an IR rated pilot flying in IMC over the same area with fog that they couldn't see anyway? If the engine quits, either way one is screwed.
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I hadn't thought about that, since the only long-lasting widespread fog I've seen around here is freezing fog in the winter, which nobody would want to fly through anyway.

Your question does seem like an important one for flying above mountain valleys, coastal areas, and other places where fog can be widespread.
 
PP with a fresh IR here. And I've got experience flying in the Rockies.

I'd agree that the IMC in the mountain valleys probably doesn't make this a significantly riskier flight than a flight in IMC over the flatlands (espcially if there is dense forest in the flatlands).

During my IR training it became clear that the FAA, CFIIs, and any of the IR training course assume that the engine does not quit in IMC. The PP syllabus (and PTS, I think) contains scenarios where the trainee has to demonstrate how they would deal with an engine failure. The IR only requires gyro and radio failure scenarios.
 
I really don't see a difference when it comes to areas of low-lying fog in mountainous terrain.

In both cases, the scenario involves engine failure, which is a very rare occurrence to begin with. For me, "no IFR in the mountains" is based more on altitude and performance considerations - simply a matter of less options for diversion without CFIT in the event of something less intense but more likely than a catastrophic engine failure.

Here's a basic IFR route from Centennial in the south Denver area to Grand Junction on the western slope, overlayed on the sectional rather than the low en route chart.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.5305904...K2.RLG:V.K2.RGA:F.K2.SQUAT:V.K2.JNC:A.K2.KGJT

Except for the initial climb to 15,500, the flight is below 14,000, within the reach of high-performance singles.

But consider something as simple as weather up ahead that you don't like. The options for diverting when visual are far greater (and safer) than the options for diverting when in the clouds.
 
Jim_R said:
an IR won't make you any better prepared to land after breaking out of the clouds 200' above a forest.
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Sure it will. Because you'd be flying, and MAKING that landing. Instead of sitting there waiting for weather to clear so you can go fly.

Instrument flying isn't just about weather. It's about precision. It's about the skills to work inside the ATC system and use it to your benefit.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I really don't see a difference when it comes to areas of low-lying fog in mountainous terrain.

In both cases, the scenario involves engine failure, which is a very rare occurrence to begin with. For me, "no IFR in the mountains" is based more on altitude and performance considerations - simply a matter of less options for diversion without CFIT in the event of something less intense but more likely than a catastrophic engine failure.

Here's a basic IFR route from Centennial in the south Denver area to Grand Junction on the western slope, overlayed on the sectional rather than the low en route chart.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=39.5305904...K2.RLG:V.K2.RGA:F.K2.SQUAT:V.K2.JNC:A.K2.KGJT

Except for the initial climb to 15,500, the flight is below 14,000, within the reach of high-performance singles.

But consider something as simple as weather up ahead that you don't like. The options for diverting when visual are far greater (and safer) than the options for diverting when in the clouds.
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And you're right at the bottom of the MEAs. No 'lower' option.

Those valley fogs are most likely below any approach minimums until they start to break up. I spent a wonderful morning in Dillon, MT waiting for it to lift.
 
Originally Posted by Jim_R
an IR won't make you any better prepared to land after breaking out of the clouds 200' above a forest.
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Doggtyred said:
Sure it will. Because you'd be flying, and MAKING that landing. Instead of sitting there waiting for weather to clear so you can go fly.

Instrument flying isn't just about weather. It's about precision. It's about the skills to work inside the ATC system and use it to your benefit.
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Huh? We're talking about mountains. I'm not sure how instrument skills help with a crash landing in the forest way below the minimums for an instrument approach to a mountain airport.

Here's a nice little LDA approach into the airport that handles commercial flights for Vail, not exactly a non-"destination", with its 1800' AGL minimums.
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1106/06403LDAD25.PDF

or this ILS with a 1300 AGL DA into an Aspen reliever in what is considered a nice, wide, easily accessible valley.
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1106/06741I26.PDF

Think those are unusual? Feel free to grab a Colorado mountain airport at random and see what you find. I actually picked the Rifle one thinking that the minimums were much lower.
 
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A forced approach into cloud over forested flatlands is much more survivable that a forced approach into cloud in a rocky mountain valley. Them rocks don't bend much.

The Roger's Pass area of the Canadian Rockies, where more than enough lightplanes have been caught in weather and have never been seen again:

mikew5j-albums-golden-quartz-april-3-6-09-picture5220-view-rogers-pass.jpg


The little line near the bottom is a highway. Above it is a railroad track. The valley is a mile deep. The rocks are very hard.

Dan
 
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Probability of fan stoppage is absolutely independant of flight rules or flight conditions. The answer to the question in the OP wholly depends upon the level of risk the pilot is willing to accept.

Today is my Sound like an attorney Day. Yes, I've injested a bloody Mary. Yes, I will be staying in a Holyday Inn tonight.
 
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Richard said:
Probability of fan stoppage is absolutely independant of flight rules or flight conditions. The answer to the question in the OP wholly depends upon the level of risk the pilot is willing to accept.

Today is my Sound like an attorney Day. Yes, I've injested a bloody Mary. Yes, I will be staying in a Holyday Inn tonight.
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OP here. It seems to me that in general, a VFR only pilot may be unwilling to fly over a large area fogged in below even though the destination is clear because the fear that if the engine quit, there would be no where for emergency landing. But, an IFR pilot may not have that same fear even though the risk may be the same. I'm just trying to determine if my perceptions have any validity...
 
skidoo said:
OP here. It seems to me that in general, a VFR only pilot may be unwilling to fly over a large area fogged in below even though the destination is clear because the fear that if the engine quit, there would be no where for emergency landing. But, an IFR pilot may not have that same fear even though the risk may be the same. I'm just trying to determine if my perceptions have any validity...
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If only the valleys are fogged in I don't see how it makes any difference as long as you can descend in the clear at your destination. I flew over fogged in valleys and areas as a VFR pilot but that was mostly in California.
 
skidoo said:
OP here. It seems to me that in general, a VFR only pilot may be unwilling to fly over a large area fogged in below even though the destination is clear because the fear that if the engine quit, there would be no where for emergency landing. But, an IFR pilot may not have that same fear even though the risk may be the same. I'm just trying to determine if my perceptions have any validity...
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The IR pilot would be in contact with ATC as mandated by flight rules. Therefore, the IR pilot may have more assets at his immediate disposal. What value those assets during an emergency event is open to debate.

If you are thinking the IR pilot may be able to complete the flight at a higher success rate because he is already in the system, in contact with ATC, has the approach plates in front of him, is able to fly the approach, I give that marginal odds at best. So marginal that it should not be used to distinguish between the pilot on IFR plan and the VFR pilot.

RE: your last sentence. Anecdotally yes, but I think the experienced IR pilot is less inclined to accept a heightend risk, ie, they are more conservative. Being more procedural oriented, they are less prone to casually flying into a box.
 
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Everskyward said:
If only the valleys are fogged in I don't see how it makes any difference as long as you can descend in the clear at your destination. I flew over fogged in valleys and areas as a VFR pilot but that was mostly in California.
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If the fan stops prior to glide range to a clear destination.... Or are you so indured to thinking SE is not an in-flight emergency? :D
 
Richard said:
If the fan stops prior to glide range to a clear destination.... Or are you so indured to thinking SE is not an in-flight emergency? :D
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Huh? If the fan stops and you only have one it doesn't matter if you are on an IFR flight plan or VFR if there is fog below you. You're right that ATC might be able to direct you to a flatter area or something but you aren't going to be able to shoot an approach.

And I probably have way more SE time than people would guess.
 
Everskyward said:
Huh? If the fan stops and you only have one it doesn't matter if you are on an IFR flight plan or VFR if there is fog below you. You're right that ATC might be able to direct you to a flatter area or something but you aren't going to be able to shoot an approach.

And I probably have way more SE time than people would guess.
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...inured...,without the 'd'. my bad.

I agree it doesn't make a diff whether on IFR plan of VFR. After your comment I began wondering if a two engine jet pilot thinks differently than a SE piston pilot. Your last comment provides my answer, assuming you are answering for the typical pilot who flies equipment similar to what you fly.
 
Richard said:
I agree it doesn't make a diff whether on IFR plan of VFR. After your comment I began wondering if a two engine jet pilot thinks differently than a SE piston pilot. Your last comment provides my answer, assuming you are answering for the typical pilot who flies equipment similar to what you fly.
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The thing is, I wasn't answering the question as a multiengine jet pilot. Although I am a klutz right now when I try to fly a small single-engine airplane I have spent more years flying them than flying jets or even turbine airplanes in general and I can still relate to the whole single-engine piston world.
 
Everskyward said:
The thing is, I wasn't answering the question as a multiengine jet pilot. Although I am a klutz right now when I try to fly a small single-engine airplane.
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Considering you fly my SE better than me I don't think you're a klutz. I can't imagine anyone nailing altitude better than you did in the Frankenkota. Say what you want but everyone else better be warned that Mari is without peer.
 
Clark1961 said:
Considering you fly my SE better than me I don't think you're a klutz. I can't imagine anyone nailing altitude better than you did in the Frankenkota. Say what you want but everyone else better be warned that Mari is without peer.
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She did the same from the right seat of the Jabiru:)
 
Clark1961 said:
Considering you fly my SE better than me I don't think you're a klutz. I can't imagine anyone nailing altitude better than you did in the Frankenkota. Say what you want but everyone else better be warned that Mari is without peer.
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But we won't talk about my landings. :rofl:
 
ejensen said:
She did the same from the right seat of the Jabiru:)
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There is nothing else to say. I can freeze the gauges in the Frankenkota. Mari freezes the gauges without even apparently noticing the gauges. It is quite a time to witness the expertise.
 
Clark1961 said:
Considering you fly my SE better than me I don't think you're a klutz. I can't imagine anyone nailing altitude better than you did in the Frankenkota. Say what you want but everyone else better be warned that Mari is without peer.
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Absolutely!
 
Clark1961 said:
There is nothing else to say. I can freeze the gauges in the Frankenkota. Mari freezes the gauges without even apparently noticing the gauges.
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Oh my. I felt a little stupid that I was looking around for your VSI and couldn't find it...
 
Clark1961 said:
Considering you fly my SE better than me I don't think you're a klutz. I can't imagine anyone nailing altitude better than you did in the Frankenkota. Say what you want but everyone else better be warned that Mari is without peer.
Click to expand...

Ooh. The gauntlet has been thrown... ;) Who's gonna pick it up? ;)
 
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