VFR stuck on top, a confession

Thanks to the OP for posting.

All the critics- note that he engaged ATC for the descent through cloud. In the world of a non IR pilot, he did well. And really, he was going to penetrate that layer eventually- either with fuel or without, with ATC or without.
For impromptu performance by a VFR-only limited pilot, this was pretty decent.

We don't have to tell him to get an IR. He knows it. I think the pucker was enough.
We don't have to tell him to plan better. He obviously "gets it".

Thanks. I "gets it". I will work on getting IR. I will not let this happen again. To the critics, thanks also. I have been more mad at myself than any of you.

Everyone should learn from my mistake, which I survived to relate.
 
For actual IMC, my personal Minimum equipment is:

  • IFR GPS
  • Autopilot
  • XM WX
  • Spherics
I'd like dual vacuum or an electric TC, but...
Wow, I can tell this is a different age now. I can remember flying IFR with none of those things. I've still never flown an airplane with XM Weather and only a very few with Spherics.
 
Thanks to the OP for posting.

All the critics- note that he engaged ATC for the descent through cloud. In the world of a non IR pilot, he did well. And really, he was going to penetrate that layer eventually- either with fuel or without, with ATC or without.
For impromptu performance by a VFR-only limited pilot, this was pretty decent.

We don't have to tell him to get an IR. He knows it. I think the pucker was enough.
We don't have to tell him to plan better. He obviously "gets it".
I agree.

As far as flying above an overcast, I think it depends. I've flown over the marine layer in CA without an instrument rating but I knew it didn't extend inland to the destination. I also think you can fly over valley fog without too much problem, again if you know the destination is clear and/or you can see the edge of the overcast in the distance. In some of these instances it wouldn't help much to have an instrument rating anyway since the approach minimums are often higher than the ceiling. It's probably a bad idea if the overcast is extensive but I wouldn't issue any kind of blanket prohibition.
 
For actual IMC, my personal Minimum equipment is:

  • IFR GPS
  • Autopilot
  • XM WX
  • Spherics
I'd like dual vacuum or an electric TC, but...
I'm perfectly content flying IFR in IMC without any of the above. You just need to understand the margin for error and make sure you respect it.

Again. This just shows that we all measure risk differently and come to different conclusions with regards to how we fly.
 
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I agree.

As far as flying above an overcast, I think it depends. I've flown over the marine layer in CA without an instrument rating but I knew it didn't extend inland to the destination. I also think you can fly over valley fog without too much problem, again if you know the destination is clear and/or you can see the edge of the overcast in the distance. In some of these instances it wouldn't help much to have an instrument rating anyway since the approach minimums are often higher than the ceiling. It's probably a bad idea if the overcast is extensive but I wouldn't issue any kind of blanket prohibition.

I'm fine with people flying over an overcast if they can see their way out. But I won't encourage flying along over solid overcasts without any way down in sight with the plan being a forecast that says it'll clear up if you make it to your destination.
 
Well, if I'm lucky I'll have the 430 (like I said 13 AMU's for the privilege). Might re-up my XM subscription, since it sounds like a damn-handy thing for IFR. But no autopilot no way, can't afford it (can't even afford the 430). And I don't even know what a spheric is, save an adjective that describes a globe.

An A/P is a luxury, certainly -- but if I'm transporting precious cargo I want all the assistance I can get.

'spherics is short for "atmospheric" devices that register electricity -- a StormScope, for instance, doesn't require anything but a sensor. It helps refine/ confirm/ adjust the XM returns. More here.

Now that I'm Old Enough To Know Better TM I realize I have responsibilities to a fairly extended network of family and friends and more, and placing my life unnecessarily at hazard is stupid. IMC in a SEL is hazardous enough -- the list i provided helps reduce some of the risk.
 
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I'm perfectly content flying IFR in IMC without any of the above. You just need to understand the margin for error and make sure you respect it.

Again. This just shows that we all measure risk differently and come to different conclusions with regards to how we fly.

Agreed. I'm north of 49, have children, grandchildren, employees...

It's not just me I'm risking.
 
Again. This just shows that we all measure risk differently and come to different conclusions with regards to how we fly.

Experience level has a lot to do with it also. Setting minimums and adhereing to them is a good skill to teach.

JMHO
 
An A/P is a luxury, certainly -- but if I'm transporting precious cargo I want all the assistance I can get.

'spherics is short for "atmospheric" devices that register electricity -- a StormScope, for instance, doesn't require anything but a sensor. It helps refine/ confirm/ adjust the XM returns.

Ppppfft! If I've got XM, I won't need the damn strike sensor, I'm not coming sufficiently close to the bad stuff to worry about discharge.

My XM went out months ago, and I've now discontinued the whole thing. I've now had two long flights where I had to deal with thunderstorms enroute, and found AWOS and Flightwatch to be perfectly acceptable for VFR flight. I had to go north around a system to get to Oshkosh. Went over the lake on the best flight I've ever experienced. Had a nice tail wind at 10.5K, and the storms had cleared the air out so much that the lake just looked like one big pond.
 
I'm fine with people flying over an overcast if they can see their way out. But I won't encourage flying along over solid overcasts without any way down in sight with the plan being a forecast that says it'll clear up if you make it to your destination.

This is where XM Weather is invaluable. You can see where the VFR conditioins are, and what the ceilings are under the layer below you. Knowing what the range is of the plane / fuel load within safety margins you can "see" several hundred miles ahead. You can also see which way the clouds are moving, what the TAFs are for the airports ahead, ect.

Jesse, I certainly don't want anyone taking my advice on when to fly. Only you as the instructor can set the curriculum. However, (you knew that was coming ;) ) I see this as the same thing as instructors not wanting to use GPS years ago. Most instructors would not allow them in the plane and that was rediculous. Look where we are now, carry a GPS and an iPad and you are legal. With today's satilite weather reporting and in flight weather available it makes flying on top a lot less risky and I predict more "acceptable" as time goes on.

I agree, the type of airplane you are flying makes all of the difference. RV's are faster, longer legged, and easier to fly than most standard aircraft.
 
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I don't have autopilot and I seem to do ok enough

You also don't live on the East coast, with plenty of IMC and airspace violations that include a free escort.

Look, the A/P "requirement" is mine. I've flown plenty of IMC in a beat up 172 with 2 VORs and an INOP ADF.

But once I flew a properly equipped IFR bird I realized what dangers I was skirting and how much more mission-capable the equipment made me.
 
You also don't live on the East coast, with plenty of IMC and airspace violations that include a free escort.

Look, the A/P "requirement" is mine. I've flown plenty of IMC in a beat up 172 with 2 VORs and an INOP ADF.

But once I flew a properly equipped IFR bird I realized what dangers I was skirting and how much more mission-capable the equipment made me.

Jesse flies weather quite a bit more energetic than anything you will ever experience out east. Jesse's part of America has the most violent weather anywhere in the world. If he can do without an autopilot, you can as well. They don't keep you out of TFR's, they reduce the workload.

Not to say you aren't entitled to your minimum whatevers. But don't try pulling the "my flights are more difficult" routine, because they simply aren't. Maybe Jesse has big brass ones, maybe he's the better pilot. But he doesn't have an easier ride.
 
You also don't live on the East coast, with plenty of IMC and airspace violations that include a free escort.

Look, the A/P "requirement" is mine. I've flown plenty of IMC in a beat up 172 with 2 VORs and an INOP ADF.

But once I flew a properly equipped IFR bird I realized what dangers I was skirting and how much more mission-capable the equipment made me.
If you cannot hold a course in IMC to stay clear of an airspace violation with an autopilot, I have to wonder if you should be flying on an IFR flight plan in the first place.

I prefer to have an a/p when flying IMC, but as a Midwest and Florida flyer with lots of airspace issues and heavy weather I can fly without it. The a/p is not used to keep me out of trouble with airspace violations but to redice my workload int eh cockpit while in IMC.
 
If you cannot hold a course in IMC to stay clear of an airspace violation with an autopilot, I have to wonder if you should be flying on an IFR flight plan in the first place.

I prefer to have an a/p when flying IMC, but as a Midwest and Florida flyer with lots of airspace issues and heavy weather I can fly without it. The a/p is not used to keep me out of trouble with airspace violations but to redice my workload int eh cockpit while in IMC.

Why are we worrying about airspace in imc. Shouldn't we be on an ifr flight plan in these conditions? If atc knows what equipment you have on board they will give you instructions you can follow wih what ya got.

A/P and gps will make a long flight in hard imc way better and probably safer too. But its not necessary. I'm nearing the halfway point in my ir rating and i have not engaged an autopilot yet. 2/4 Ifr aircraft i fly do not even have one. 2 weeks ago i handflew under sim imc for 3 hours and shot 4 approaches. It was exhausting but not prohibitive.
 
Why are we worrying about airspace in imc. Shouldn't we be on an ifr flight plan in these conditions? If atc knows what equipment you have on board they will give you instructions you can follow wih what ya got.
I have to agree with you. Dan is the one that has trouble staying clear of airspace in IMC on his IFR flight plan without an a/p. Apparently the east coast has special airspace that no one else in the US has and requires special conditions and procedures to fly around it. But what they are have yet to be revealed to the rest of us who are not as tasked in our IFR flights.
 
I have to agree with you. Dan is the one that has trouble staying clear of airspace in IMC on his IFR flight plan without an a/p. Apparently the east coast has special airspace that no one else in the US has and requires special conditions and procedures to fly around it. But what they are have yet to be revealed to the rest of us who are not as tasked in our IFR flights.


Sometimes you can be a real maroon, Scott.

:rolleyes2:

My point is I prefer to fly an airplane equipped with an A/P when flying SPIFR.

That's my preference, my requirement. I've already stated I can fly without one (and usually hand fly most of the time anyway). But when you're getting vectored, keeping the speed up, and being given a sequence of unfamiliar intersections, it's very helpful to have another hand.

Get it? Or is that not clear enough?
 
Sometimes you can be a real maroon, Scott.

:rolleyes2:

My point is I prefer to fly an airplane equipped with an A/P when flying SPIFR.

That's my preference, my requirement. I've already stated I can fly without one (and usually hand fly most of the time anyway). But when you're getting vectored, keeping the speed up, and being given a sequence of unfamiliar intersections, it's very helpful to have another hand.

Get it? Or is that not clear enough?
That is all fine. I don't know why you did not just state that to begin with and instead went into some weird excuse about east coast airspace issues. When you say things that don't make a lot of sense, you have to expect people to question your statements.
 
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Jesse flies weather quite a bit more energetic than anything you will ever experience out east. Jesse's part of America has the most violent weather anywhere in the world. If he can do without an autopilot, you can as well. They don't keep you out of TFR's, they reduce the workload.

Not to say you aren't entitled to your minimum whatevers. But don't try pulling the "my flights are more difficult" routine, because they simply aren't. Maybe Jesse has big brass ones, maybe he's the better pilot. But he doesn't have an easier ride.

I've flown across Nebraska, Kansas, Texas, and a few other flat states with big ole mean ole weather.

Anybody who is still alive stays out of the really nasty stuff that rolls across the plains.

Embedded cells are bad juju wherever you fly, but the line between Asheville, NC and Scranton, PA seems to breed an unhealthy share that move east, into some of the most congested airspace in the country.

But who cares...? Clearly we're more interested in scoring sophistry points. Eitehr that or did I strike some sort of midwest sensitivity nerve?

:rolleyes2:
 
That is all fine. I don't know why you did not just state that to begin with and instead went into some weird excuse about east coast airspace issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidWhite
I don't have autopilot and I seem to do ok enough

You also don't live on the East coast, with plenty of IMC and airspace violations that include a free escort.

Look, the A/P "requirement" is mine. I've flown plenty of IMC in a beat up 172 with 2 VORs and an INOP ADF.

But once I flew a properly equipped IFR bird I realized what dangers I was skirting and how much more mission-capable the equipment made me.

Can you please point out the "weird" in the above response to David's?
 
Can you please point out the "weird" in the above response to David's?
The first line where you claim to need an autopilot to navigate east coast airspace and weather.

Several people commented on that strangeness of that claim. So it is not just me thinking there was something unusual about it.
 
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Again, no quote
You had the quote in your own post a few moments ago. Are you trying to be obtuse or clueless?

Here you go though...

I don't have autopilot and I seem to do ok enough

You also don't live on the East coast, with plenty of IMC and airspace violations that include a free escort.
That is a strange opening to make in response to David's statement. Perhaps you thought you were being cleaver or somehow insightful in way to impress all of PoA. I have no idea. But to me and a couple of other people, the statement was at best out of place and unusual and it sure reads that was the primary personal requirement for the autopilot.

Look, the A/P "requirement" is mine. I've flown plenty of IMC in a beat up 172 with 2 VORs and an INOP ADF.

But once I flew a properly equipped IFR bird I realized what dangers I was skirting and how much more mission-capable the equipment made me.
The closing line seems to try and support the first. Are those so called "dangers" that you speak of the complicated east coast airspace and unique weather? Sure seems that it the case you were trying to make.
 
My point is I prefer to fly an airplane equipped with an A/P when flying SPIFR.

That's my preference, my requirement. I've already stated I can fly without one
One would hope so, because it's an FAA requirement to pass an IR practical test or IPC.

(and usually hand fly most of the time anyway). But when you're getting vectored, keeping the speed up, and being given a sequence of unfamiliar intersections, it's very helpful to have another hand.
I agree that it's helpful, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash about launching SPIFR without one, and I've done so hundreds, perhaps thousands of times. If your risk assessment-based choice is to make an autopilot a go/no-go item for SPIFR for other than regulatory reasons (e.g., Part 135), then that should be purely a personal choice based on convenience and comfort, and you still should maintain full no-a/p proficiency anyway.
 
You had the quote in your own post a few moments ago. Are you trying to be obtuse or clueless?

Here you go though...



That is a strange opening to make in response to David's statement. Perhaps you thought you were being cleaver or somehow insightful in way to impress all of PoA. I have no idea. But to me and a couple of other people, the statement was at best out of place and unusual and it sure reads that was the primary personal requirement for the autopilot.

The closing line seems to try and support the first. Are those so called "dangers" that you speak of the complicated east coast airspace and unique weather? Sure seems that it the case you were trying to make.


Whatever, Scott. :rolleyes2:

I'll try one more time to make this clear for everyone else, as Scott has a comprehension problem due to his unique brand of sophistry...

----------------------------------------------------------

I prefer to fly Single Pilot IFR with an AP, XM WX, 'spherics, and IFR WAAS GPS as that combination provides me (notice the qualifier) the redundancy and information I need to confidently fly IMC anywhere I choose to fly.

The 'spherics and XM together provide real-time and trend data required to navigate areas of embedded CB that are common along the Appalachian chain most of the year.

The IFR GPS provides real time positional awareness and GPS approaches into airports that earlier were served with much higher minimum NDB or LOC approaches (including KWAY, my -- until recently-- home airport).

The Autopilot provides an extra hand that helps reduce the overall workload, affording more cycles for other tasks.

Yet, if it all fails, I still maintain the requisite proficiency to fly and land safely. I have real world, real life evidence of this and I posted about it on this board and here.

Oh -- and I own and fly a 70 year old airplane with no GPS, no electric, no transponder, no strobes, no CAPS, no starter, no flaps, lots of adverse yaw, etc -- so I already checked the "Ima Tough Guy Don't Need Nuthin' " block.
 
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Agreed. I'm north of 49, have children, grandchildren, employees...

It's not just me I'm risking.

John King asks why you think that way (and he does/did). Like your own life isn't worth anything?

I guess it's a matter of piling on that on top of everything else your passengers are depending on your skills and decision making with their lives.
 
I've said it before, but I still don't get autopilot. Aren't we flying because we enjoy flying, not because we enjoy sitting in a seat and drooling for 3 hours until the plane navigates us to our destination for us?
 
I've said it before, but I still don't get autopilot. Aren't we flying because we enjoy flying, not because we enjoy sitting in a seat and drooling for 3 hours until the plane navigates us to our destination for us?

Oh yeah? Than why does everybody want a faster plane? ;)

Long ago Crusty gave me an insight that if I wanted to log and fly more hours I could use a lower power setting. :idea: I still almost never do that.
 
I've said it before, but I still don't get autopilot. Aren't we flying because we enjoy flying, not because we enjoy sitting in a seat and drooling for 3 hours until the plane navigates us to our destination for us?


Have you flown 5 hours IMC without one?

Until then, I agree -- it's pointless.
 
I've said it before, but I still don't get autopilot. Aren't we flying because we enjoy flying, not because we enjoy sitting in a seat and drooling for 3 hours until the plane navigates us to our destination for us?

Your flying is also very much recreational, the long trips you do are quite infrequent, and you're not flying aircraft that are fast, complex, or have much in the way of systems, especially in hard IMC.

Hand flying 6-10 hours in a day gets annoying. Doing it multiple times a month, yeah, gets more annoying still. Then add in getting something that has a little speed to it and more complex systems that require monitoring, more annoying still, especially when you end up with some complex routing in hard IMC and reroutes (this does happen more in the northeast than any other area I've flown).

Doable without an autopilot? Sure. My first 250 hours in the Aztec (including the trip to Gaston's) were all without the AP functioning. I only use the autopilot when I feel like it (which depends on the day). But I am happy having it around to use when I feel like it.
 
Wow, I can tell this is a different age now. I can remember flying IFR with none of those things. I've still never flown an airplane with XM Weather and only a very few with Spherics.

What is Spherics?


I asked a DPE whether or not I could use an iPad with Foreflight. The answer was yes, but not on the checkride.
 
+1. I teach my students not to fly over an overcast layer period. There is no guarantee you'll find a way back down. If you want to fly over cloud layers get an instrument rating. It's that simple.

Or have enough fuel to get to cloud-free space, that you KNOW exists.

That doesn't change my statement that if you want to go flying around cloud layers you should have an instrument rating. If you aren't able to get one - or if you don't want to - you shouldn't be flying vfr over the top. That's my opinion..and I'm sticking to it :)

Perfectly entitled to your opinion, and better to teach folks to err on the safe side.

As a low-time pilot (pre-IFR) I flew over the top of clouds plenty of times. In the mountains here on the east coast, there are plenty of times where the valleys will be fogged in with a cloud layer, but away from the hills it's clear and a million. I have no issue with a VFR pilot that knows the conditions flying over those clouds (or low clouds over a river valley) when they're headed to a destination airport that is known to be clear. At the time, I was living in the Cincy area flying to the DC area.... over the top.

The margin of error was reduced if there were an engine failure, but that was a risk I was willing to accept, especially since if I went down in the mountains it was a high-risk descent/landing anyway (at least compared to Ohio farmland).

Heck, one could fly out of Blue Ash at clear and a million while Sunken Lunken (<10 miles away) was fogged in.

I got the IFR rating pretty quickly, so it wasn't an issue for long, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to do it again, PROVIDED THAT I had knowledge of the area & prevailing weather conditions/metrology.
 
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Wow. Where to begin. Having read 5 pages of this thread, I find myself aligned mostly with Jesse.

No one who has been around for a while has not found themself in the midst of weather that is impractical (or downright dangerous) to continue to their destination.

Seems to me that a discussion of the statistics of untrained pilots flying in to less-than-VFR weather is in order.

To the OP, who took an (uninformed) risk, and had to subsequently descend through the clouds, I offer this sobering statistic: Your life expectancy after flight into IMC is less than two minutes! The litany of VFR only pilots who stray (inadvertantly) in to IMC - then DIED, in a very long list. An autopilot, for such an inexperienced pilot, (in IMC) is akin to training wheels on a bicycle ridden on the freeway...AT NIGHT!

I'm not saying that sometimes, flying above a cloud layer isn't sensible. But when it's done, it should only be done deliberately when A) the pilot knows the layer won't be a factor when descending to his destination, B) the layer is thin, C) there is many thousands of feet below the layer of good visibility, and, D) in a perfect world, it should be done as a flight over mountainous terrain in a twin-engine airplane: One should be able to glide completely over the layer should the engine fail.

First of all, when faced with the dilema of the weather you confronted, you should have either descended so as to remain beneath the cloud layer, and if feasable, continued to your destination, turned around and gone back to your home-town airport, or listened like crazy to the ATISes of all the airports on your route (to make darn sure flight on top of the clouds is sensible) and continued. Your mistake was NOT making the right decision when you came upon the cloud layer. I could have cost you your life, and maybe that of your passengers, or worse yours and someone who crossed your path, while flying IFR legally. Your next mistake, was not recognizing that you were experiencing an emergency: you should have declared an emergency with ATC before descending through the clouds...the only LEGAL way to descend through the clouds - without an instrument rating.

It disturbs me profoundly that inexperienced pilots somehow think because they posess the latest fancy-pants gadget, with XMthis or GPSthat, think everything is AOKAY. A canoe - even equipt with radar when heading for Niagra falls, is not a good vessel with a brainless skipper.
 
Spherics are devices like Stormscope which sense lightning. I never heard them called spherics until a couple years ago on this board, which is the only place I've heard them called that.
"Spherics" (or "sferics," as most lightning detection manufacturers call it) is the concept behind the devices, not the device name, i.e., a "sferics device" uses sferics technology to detect lightning strikes. The term itself derives from "atmospherics," but the manufacturers chose to use an "f" instead of "ph," which is why you see it spelled both ways. The two most widely sold light plane sferics devices are produced under the registered trademark names Stormscope (originally from Ryan, later BF Goodrich, and currently L-3 Communications) and Strikefinder (from Insight). The Stormscope was, I believe, first, and the term is often used generically despite its registered trademark status. Using the term "sferics device" to refer to them generically is less common, but more correct.
 
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