VFR on Top

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spcalan1

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SpcAlan1
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Here are my hours :
143TT
87 PIC
41 PIC xc

I have been flying for 2+ years and now soley fly the CAP airplane.
At 100 PIC - Transport Mission Pilot
At 200 PIC - Mission Pilot and Cadet O-Ride Pilot
So looking forward to those assignments.

I believe myself to be a over-conservative pilot ( weather, regulations ).
I have cancelled more flights in my 2+ years than most people due to 'clouds'. So basically if it isn't 'Sky Clear' - I have to convince myself to fly.

I have only flown VFR on Top about 3 times in 143tt hours.
I spoke with a CFII about getting my instrument and he laughed and said you definitely need your instrument ticket if I am cancelling flights due to a little clouds.

I guess I wish I flew more often to be able to reduce my personal minimums.

So.. how often do you fly VFR on top knowing your destination is clear ?

My rule is : " I never HAVE to fly anywhere.. ever "
 
spcalan1 said:
Here are my hours :
143TT
87 PIC
41 PIC xc

I have been flying for 2+ years and now soley fly the CAP airplane.
At 100 PIC - Transport Mission Pilot
At 200 PIC - Mission Pilot and Cadet O-Ride Pilot
So looking forward to those assignments.

I believe myself to be a over-conservative pilot ( weather, regulations ).
I have cancelled more flights in my 2+ years than most people due to 'clouds'. So basically if it isn't 'Sky Clear' - I have to convince myself to fly.

I have only flown VFR on Top about 3 times in 143tt hours.
I spoke with a CFII about getting my instrument and he laughed and said you definitely need your instrument ticket if I am cancelling flights due to a little clouds.

I guess I wish I flew more often to be able to reduce my personal minimums.

So.. how often do you fly VFR on top knowing your destination is clear ?

My rule is : " I never HAVE to fly anywhere.. ever "
Click to expand...

If you haven't got an instrument rating you cannot fly VFR-on-top. You're confusing VFR-on-top with VFR over the top. VFR-on-top is an IFR operation conducted on an IFR clearance. VFR over-the-top means VFR flight above the layer of clouds or other obscuring phenomena forming the ceiling.
 
I've done it before and I'll do it again, but I've been instrument qualified since 1971, so I always have that option if things close up underneath. And note, too, that EdFred is also instrument rated, so he, too has the IFR "out" if the weathers go sour below him.

In your case, I think your current rule of not doing this is a good one for someone with no IR, but I think you should seriously consider going after and getting that rating so you have more operational flexibility.
 
roncachamp said:
VFR over-the-top means VFR flight above the layer of clouds or other obscuring phenomena forming the ceiling.
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Yes. I meant VFR over the top.
Just a regular VFR over a cloud layer.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've done it before and I'll do it again, but I've been instrument qualified since 1971, so I always have that option if things close up underneath. And note, too, that EdFred is also instrument rated, so he, too has the IFR "out" if the weathers go sour below him.

In your case, I think your current rule of not doing this is a good one for someone with no IR, but I think you should seriously consider going after and getting that rating so you have more operational flexibility.
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I 1000% completely agree.
In the case of emergency.. It would be illegal ( and dangerous ) to descend through the clouds.
 
I pretty much won't fly if there is a cloud is the sky :(
 
spcalan1 said:
I 1000% completely agree.
In the case of emergency.. It would be illegal ( and dangerous ) to descend through the clouds.
Click to expand...
Technically, it's not illegal to descend through the clouds in an emergency without an instrument rating as long as you coordinate it with ATC (see 91.3(b) on that point), but if that happened in a foreseeable manner, the FAA would still probably find a few other things with which to charge you. ;)
 
spcalan1 said:
I pretty much won't fly if there is a cloud is the sky :(
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Nothing wrong with that attitude as long as you don't mind the reduction in operational flexibility. But if you really feel :( about that, go get that IR and enjoy the sunshine and blue sky on top without all the worries a VFR-only pilot has up there.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nothing wrong with that attitude as long as you don't mind the reduction in operational flexibility. But if you really feel :( about that, go get that IR and enjoy the sunshine and blue sky on top without all the worries a VFR-only pilot has up there.
Click to expand...
:yes:
 
I'm VFR Only. I don't do over the top either. I once flew VFR-on top and it felt strange so I put the foggles back on and went back to instruments. The CFII was Acting PIC while I was manipulating the controls.
 
Ron Levy said:
Technically, it's not illegal to descend through the clouds in an emergency without an instrument rating as long as you coordinate it with ATC (see 91.3(b) on that point), but if that happened in a foreseeable manner, the FAA would still probably find a few other things with which to charge you. ;)
Click to expand...

To pick a nit...

91.3(b) does not require you to coordinate with ATC.

Not saying it's a good idea, but in an emergency, do what you need to and worry about the lawyers later.
 
dans2992 said:
Why? ......
Click to expand...

Good question.
I guess it goes back to the fact - I never 'have' to fly anywhere.
Flying is a hobby to me and there is never a time I could not drive to my destination.

Maybe I need to fly more often and lower my minimums.
 
I have around the same hours as you, and I have found that there is a lot of room between CAVU and MVFR. The plane doesn't know if there are clouds above it and doesn't mind getting rained on.

spcalan1 said:
I pretty much won't fly if there is a cloud is the sky :(
Click to expand...
 
spcalan1 said:
Good question.
I guess it goes back to the fact - I never 'have' to fly anywhere.
Flying is a hobby to me and there is never a time I could not drive to my destination.

Maybe I need to fly more often and lower my minimums.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it would help if we had some geographical context we could use to understand what you mean by "no cloud in the sky".
 
spcalan1 said:
Good question.
I guess it goes back to the fact - I never 'have' to fly anywhere.
Flying is a hobby to me and there is never a time I could not drive to my destination.

Maybe I need to fly more often and lower my minimums.
Click to expand...
If flying is a hobby for you and you don't mind getting grounded due to weather then I'd say don't go for the IR
 
Before I was comfortable flying an approach, I would only fly "VFR over the top" until the point that I wouldn't be able to get down from my present position. ie I would happily climb up and fly above a scattered layer, but I wasn't going to trust flying over an undercast just because it was forecasted to have gone away by the destination.

After I got comfortable flying an approach (but before having my instrument rating in hand) I was willing to be a little more aggressive, figuring that confessing to ATC and flying an approach (as an emergency without the rating) was a valid "out" should the forecast be wildly off. I still wouldn't fly over a forecast "broken" layer, but "scattered" at the destination was fair game if the rest of the pre-flight agreed.

Even if you don't think you have the time or patience or money for an instrument rating, there's no reason not to go to a CFII and do five or ten hours on basic attitude flying and vectors-to-final approaches. It makes the penalty for messing up a confession to ATC rather than a reporter asking "but did he file a flight plan?"
 
Would rather fly under a layer than over one,what do you do if the destination goes IFR. I have an IFR ticket ,so over the top works for me.
 
spcalan1 said:
I pretty much won't fly if there is a cloud is the sky :(
Click to expand...

My suggestion would be to find a CFII to go flying with you. At first, though, not specifically with the instrument rating in mind (though that's an obvious next step, which is why I'd find a CFII). The first few flights, just go flying on decent VFR days, but with some cloud cover. You'll have the CFII to get you out of any trouble you can't handle and will build experience (and maybe some confidence) flying in weather other than severe clear. At some point, you may decide that your minimums change (ie, "Now that I see what broken at 5000' looks like, I understand that for shorter flights without terrain issues I'd be capable and comfortable making the flight.") Maybe that includes VFR over the top, maybe it doesn't. (Though that's not an operation I ever did because, like you, I never HAD to fly... and wasn't too excited to figure out how to get down if I got "trapped" on top of an undercast.)

Once you do a couple of flights VFR with clouds (but not in the clouds), I'd spend a flight or two either IN the clouds or with foggles on to get a feel for some basic instrument flying. This could come in handy if (for some reason) you found yourself in a cloud and had to execute the 180 turn to VFR conditions or needed to descend through a layer in an emergency.

At that point, you'll probably know whether instrument training is the logical next step or not. And, if it is, you'll already have the CFII to take you through it and some time logged towards the rating!

Good luck!
 
JeffDG said:
Not arguing, but Communicating is priority #3, behind Aviating and Navigating.
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I'm with ya, hoss, but if you're stuck on top and haven't procrastinated your way into a low fuel situation, you should have time to get all three done. The ones who get in the biggest trouble are the ones who futz around up there until they have only 15 minutes of gas left before biting that bullet, and then it's tough to handle. Get ATC in the game early so they can open up Section X of their book and start helping you before the situation becomes desperate.
 
I can't believe what I am reading. :mad2:

"I won't fly if there is a cloud in the sky."
"I fly over clouds and get a funny feeling."

Even the FAA has minimums for VFR flight and dealing with clouds. 500' below, 1'000 above, 2,000' to the side. Why would you even want to fly and not deal with clouds? :mad2:

I've flown VFR between layers, above clouds, below clouds, in rain, etc. Really guys, they won't hurt you. Just stick to your mins. :rolleyes:

Seriously, grow a set or take up knitting.
 
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roncachamp said:
If you haven't got an instrument rating you cannot fly VFR-on-top. You're confusing VFR-on-top with VFR over the top. VFR-on-top is an IFR operation conducted on an IFR clearance. VFR over-the-top means VFR flight above the layer of clouds or other obscuring phenomena forming the ceiling.
Click to expand...

I'm calling BS on this too. IMHO there is no difference in the terms. Certainly, ATC doesn't care what terms you use. I've been on top for hours at a time knowing my destination is clear. ATC has always referred to me at "VFR on top" not "VFR over the top." They have even asked me for PIREPS on the tops.

Seriously, you guys crack me up! :rofl:
 
spcalan1 said:
Good question.
I guess it goes back to the fact - I never 'have' to fly anywhere.
Flying is a hobby to me and there is never a time I could not drive to my destination.

Maybe I need to fly more often and lower my minimums.
Click to expand...

Wait until there are a few high clouds in the sky and take off an hour before sunset. Watch the colors of the sunset and pick up a night landing. Don't be afraid to use your PPL to enjoy life!
 
Geico266 said:
I'm calling BS on this too. IMHO there is no difference in the terms. Certainly, ATC doesn't care what terms you use. I've been on top for hours at a time knowing my destination is clear. ATC has always referred to me at "VFR on top" not "VFR over the top." They have even asked me for PIREPS on the tops.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of opinion, it is a fact that there is a difference in the terms.
 
spcalan1 said:
I 1000% completely agree.
In the case of emergency.. It would be illegal ( and dangerous ) to descend through the clouds.
Click to expand...

Not in an emergency. I tend to do it when the cloud layers would allow VFR flight underneath, but bumpy, hot, and unpleasant. I take the high road and get cool clear air. Again, so long as my destination is and is forecast to stay clear.

My thinking is if I do encounter an emergency I do have to descend through the layer, but once I get under it there is no difference if I had been under it the whole time. Actually in a way on top is a bit safer, since I can be that much closer to a safe landing spot if I have that much more altitude through which to descend.

The real crux is what's going to happen during the descent. I've kept the shiny side up during VFR conditions that nevertheless allowed no visibility of any horizon or other positional markers. While legal VFR conditions, flight was by reference to instruments only (with a second pilot looking out for other aircraft). Won't ever say it was smart, but there I was and here I am.
 
Geico266 said:
I'm calling BS on this too. IMHO there is no difference in the terms. Certainly, ATC doesn't care what terms you use. I've been on top for hours at a time knowing my destination is clear. ATC has always referred to me at "VFR on top" not "VFR over the top." They have even asked me for PIREPS on the tops.

Seriously, you guys crack me up! :rofl:
Click to expand...

ATC should care about the difference. One is different from the other. The only real similarity is that they're both aircraft operating above an obscuration.

If you're over the top you can't climb thru IMC to get there and you can't descend thru IMC at your destination. With an on top aircraft they could easily accept an IAP at the destination if they're socked in. Unless the over the top aircraft is rated and equipped, they're gonna be up the creek if their destination is IMC.
 
Velocity173 said:
ATC should care about the difference. One is different from the other. The only real similarity is that they're both aircraft operating above an obscuration.

If you're over the top you can't climb thru IMC to get there and you can't descend thru IMC at your destination. With an on top aircraft they could easily accept an IAP at the destination if they're socked in. Unless the over the top aircraft is rated and equipped, they're gonna be up the creek if their destination is IMC.
Click to expand...

If you are flying IFR and you are above the clouds you are "IFR on top". ;)

If I am flying VFR on top why would I need to climb through IMC?

Geeze, remember the KISS principle? Keep it simple stupid.
 
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spcalan1 said:
Good question.
I guess it goes back to the fact - I never 'have' to fly anywhere.
Flying is a hobby to me and there is never a time I could not drive to my destination.

Maybe I need to fly more often and lower my minimums.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're not ready to go for the instrument rating (yet). When the time comes you won't need us to convince you, you'll know it.
 
Geico266 said:
If you are flying IFR and you are above the clouds you are "IFR on top". ;)
Click to expand...

No, you are IFR over-the-top, aka VFR-on-Top.


Title 14: Aeronautics and Space

PART 1—DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS

§1.1 General definitions.

IFR over-the-top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft over-the-top on an IFR flight plan when cleared by air traffic control to maintain “VFR conditions” or “VFR conditions on top”
 
roncachamp said:
It's not a matter of opinion, it is a fact that there is a difference in the terms.
Click to expand...

Probably, but I'm not playing the game of splitting hairs. Definitions should be for both IFR and VFR pilots. The definitions you cited make zero sense to this VFR pilot.
 
I was between layers almost all the way to Chicago going to Oshkosh this year. Perfectly legal VFR and we were prepared to get an IFR clearance, but there wasn't really any reason to.
 
spcalan1 said:
Good question.
I guess it goes back to the fact - I never 'have' to fly anywhere.
Flying is a hobby to me and there is never a time I could not drive to my destination.

Maybe I need to fly more often and lower my minimums.
Click to expand...
Hey, aren't you the same guy that started the "step up ....." thread? You'll be ready to start your instrument training before very long. First time you find yourself sitting on the ground wishing you were in the air.......or worse yet, in the air wishing you were on the ground.
 
flyingron said:
I was between layers almost all the way to Chicago going to Oshkosh this year. Perfectly legal VFR and we were prepared to get an IFR clearance, but there wasn't really any reason to.
Click to expand...

Been there done that any times. I just dont get the "being scared of clouds" thing.
 
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