VFR-On-Top

bluesky74656

bluesky74656

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Todd Kooser
Just this morning I managed to pass my IFR written. 92%.

In studying, I came across a number of questions dedicated to VFR-On-Top. So, I know that the rules are that you must be able to maintain VFR, you must stay on your filed or assigned route (you can't just flit about like you could under straight VFR), and you may request any VFR altitude from ATC.

My question is: what's the point? Under normal IFR I must stay on my filed or assigned route, I can file any IFR altitude I like and request changes as needed, but I don't have to maintain VFR. I can't think of a good reason I would ever need VFR-On-Top.
 
Every time I've used it, it was to get some flexibility in altitude due. It's easier to get than an IFR block altitude. It's also a useful way to get away from low clouds along a lake or seashore where it is clear inland.

Don't forget that you can be cleared "VFR-ON-TOP" even if you are actually flying under the overcast. It's technically the name of a clearance, not an explicit statement of where the clouds are.
 
When I was flying boxes between Seattle and eastern Washington I always filed for VFR-on-top even if it was clear and a million. Center would tell me to report when on top, which I did virtually immediately upon initial contact, and I chose a VFR altitude of 6500,8500, 10500, something like that. I got all of the traffic advisories that I would have gotten with flight following, I could ask for another altitude if I wanted to, but the most important thing is that I was in "the system." As I approached the crest of the Cascades and saw that the Puget Sound Basin was solid cloud, all I had to do is ask Center for a hard altitude and voila! I was an IFR flight.

Bob Gardner
 
Don't usually file VFR on top,either file IFR ,or stay VFR. If you want to be in the system just file IFR and fly the flight plan. You can always ask for deviations,while IFR.
 
bluesky74656 said:
In studying, I came across a number of questions dedicated to VFR-On-Top. So, I know that the rules are that you must be able to maintain VFR, you must stay on your filed or assigned route (you can't just flit about like you could under straight VFR), and you may request any VFR altitude from ATC.
Click to expand...
You don't need to request an altitude from ATC -- altitude is your discretion, subject to leveling at regular VFR altitudes per 91.159. You should advise ATC prior to altitude changes while VFR-on-top, but it's not required. See AIM 5-5-13 for details.
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't need to request an altitude from ATC -- altitude is your discretion, subject to leveling at regular VFR altitudes per 91.159. You should advise ATC prior to altitude changes while VFR-on-top, but it's not required. See AIM 5-5-13 for details.
Click to expand...

That's what I had wrong. I mis-remembered a question on the written:
You encounter structural icing on an IFR flight plan at 7,000 feet. Your request for 9,000 feet is rejected by ATC. You request VFR on Top at 7,500 which is granted. What must you do with your IFR flight plan?
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I remembered the altitudes wrong and was thinking that you were VFR on Top the whole time and ATC denied a request to ascend to 9,500. Now that I re-read the question it makes more sense.

In the case presented in the question ATC would likely assign you a restriction with your clearance, something like "Maintain VFR on top at or below 8,000", right? Since 9,000 wouldn't work for them.
 
bluesky74656 said:
That's what I had wrong. I mis-remembered a question on the written:

I remembered the altitudes wrong and was thinking that you were VFR on Top the whole time and ATC denied a request to ascend to 9,500. Now that I re-read the question it makes more sense.

In the case presented in the question ATC would likely assign you a restriction with your clearance, something like "Maintain VFR on top at or below 8,000", right? Since 9,000 wouldn't work for them.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if they would or not. It would depend on the situation. However, since the separation rules change for VFR-on-top aircraft, the fact that they could not clear you to 9000 under regular IFR doesn't necessarily mean VFR-on-top 9500 also "wouldn't work for them".
 
VFR on Top relieves ATC of the requirement of providing IFR separation which in some circumstances can afford greater flexibility. That's why as Ron suggests ATC might not be able to clear you at 9000 under straight IFR but 9500 VFR on Top wouldn't be a problem. When you're operation with a VFR on Top clearance you're accepting the responsibility of providing your own visual separation.
 
vdehart said:
What's the correct terminology to refer to a strictly VFR operation on top of a cloud layer? That's VFR over-the-top?
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VFR On Top is an IFR clearance.

VFR over the top is what a non-instrument pilot is doing (legally) when flying over a cloud layer.
 
bluesky74656 said:
In studying, I came across a number of questions dedicated to VFR-On-Top. So, I know that the rules are that you must be able to maintain VFR, you must stay on your filed or assigned route (you can't just flit about like you could under straight VFR), and you may request any VFR altitude from ATC.
Click to expand...

Once cleared to maintain VFR-on-Top you may operate at any appropriate VFR altitude between the minimum IFR altitude and the base of Class A airspace. You don't have to request the altitude from the controller.

My question is: what's the point? Under normal IFR I must stay on my filed or assigned route, I can file any IFR altitude I like and request changes as needed, but I don't have to maintain VFR. I can't think of a good reason I would ever need VFR-On-Top.
Click to expand...

Suppose your requested IFR altitude is denied due to traffic? You can request VFR-on-top and climb/descend to an altitude more to your liking.
 
roncachamp said:
Once cleared to maintain VFR-on-Top you may operate at any appropriate VFR altitude between the minimum IFR altitude and the base of Class A airspace. You don't have to request the altitude from the controller.







Suppose your requested IFR altitude is denied due to traffic? You can request VFR-on-top and climb/descend to an altitude more to your liking.
Click to expand...


Makes sense, thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bobmrg said:
When I was flying boxes between Seattle and eastern Washington I always filed for VFR-on-top even if it was clear and a million. Center would tell me to report when on top, which I did virtually immediately upon initial contact, and I chose a VFR altitude of 6500,8500, 10500, something like that. I got all of the traffic advisories that I would have gotten with flight following, I could ask for another altitude if I wanted to, but the most important thing is that I was in "the system." As I approached the crest of the Cascades and saw that the Puget Sound Basin was solid cloud, all I had to do is ask Center for a hard altitude and voila! I was an IFR flight.
Click to expand...

You were an IFR flight at all times.
 
frfly172 said:
Don't usually file VFR on top,either file IFR ,or stay VFR. If you want to be in the system just file IFR and fly the flight plan. You can always ask for deviations,while IFR.
Click to expand...

Sure, but deviations may be denied due to traffic. With VFR-on-top you can change altitude as you need and lateral deviations won't be denied due to traffic.
 
bluesky74656 said:
That's what I had wrong. I mis-remembered a question on the written:

I remembered the altitudes wrong and was thinking that you were VFR on Top the whole time and ATC denied a request to ascend to 9,500. Now that I re-read the question it makes more sense.

In the case presented in the question ATC would likely assign you a restriction with your clearance, something like "Maintain VFR on top at or below 8,000", right? Since 9,000 wouldn't work for them.
Click to expand...

Assuming the conflicting traffic is at 9,000, the phraseology would be, "Climb to and report reaching VFR-on-Top, if not on top by 8,000 maintain 8,000 and advise, no tops reported."

But if you're in clouds at 7000 you won't be able to report VFR-on-Top at 7,500 because you need 1000 feet above clouds.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
VFR on Top relieves ATC of the requirement of providing IFR separation which in some circumstances can afford greater flexibility. That's why as Ron suggests ATC might not be able to clear you at 9000 under straight IFR but 9500 VFR on Top wouldn't be a problem. When you're operation with a VFR on Top clearance you're accepting the responsibility of providing your own visual separation.
Click to expand...

VFR-on-Top relieves ATC of separation responsibility once the pilot has reported reaching VFR-on-Top and has been instructed by ATC to maintain VFR-on-Top. If the requesting pilot is in clouds at 7000 with conflicting traffic at 9000 he'll be restricted to 8000 and wont have the required distance above cloud needed to report VFR-on-top.
 
I'm gonna be a wet blanket here.

A VFR pilot doing VFR over the top for short distances (such as the aforementioned coastal cloud bank) is OK - usually.
But doing that for some distance, say hundreds of miles, is a fools game. Weather can change, will change, and almost always does.
Then we get the NTSB final report a year later, VFR into IMC.

I do not remember asking for VFR over top but once. Don't remember why I did that. Once I am up through the layer and on top it is a lot less work to just drone along with center watching out for me. And the times center couldn't accomodate a deviation have been so small that I can barely remember them.
 
Dr. O said:
I do not remember asking for VFR over top but once. Don't remember why I did that. Once I am up through the layer and on top it is a lot less work to just drone along with center watching out for me. And the times center couldn't accomodate a deviation have been so small that I can barely remember them.
Click to expand...

Who did you ask and why?
 
What Steven is getting ready to say is that there is no request to go VFR over the top. There, answered the question.

VFR on top is used a lot out in Cali to get above the fog layer and then cancel. We used it a lot for helos out of Miramar going to Pendleton. "Cleared to Camp Pendleton as filed, climb to and report reaching VFR on top, if not on top by 3,000, maintain 3,000 and advise. No tops reported." It's a clearance that was used for an aircraft who just wants to get on top of the clouds, cancel, then go direct the restricted area VFR.
 
Velocity173 said:
VFR on top is used a lot out in Cali to get above the fog layer and then cancel. We used it a lot for helos out of Miramar going to Pendleton. "Cleared to Camp Pendleton as filed, climb to and report reaching VFR on top, if not on top by 3,000, maintain 3,000 and advise. No tops reported." It's a clearance that was used for an aircraft who just wants to get on top of the clouds, cancel, then go direct the restricted area VFR.
Click to expand...

There's no use of VFR-on-Top in that example.
 
Velocity173 said:
They're on an IFR clearance climbing through the clouds to a VFR altitude. That's OTP.
Click to expand...

If they cancel IFR upon reaching that VFR altitude without reporting and being instructed to maintain VFR-on-Top they've never operated VFR-on-Top.
 
roncachamp said:
If they cancel IFR upon reaching that VFR altitude without reporting and being instructed to maintain VFR-on-Top they've never operated VFR-on-Top.
Click to expand...

They did report reaching OTP. They would then cancel and continue VFR. They don't have to stay on an IFR flight plan to be a valid OTP clearance. They sure weren't VFR over the top either because they weren't VMC in the climb.
 
Velocity173 said:
They did report reaching OTP. They would then cancel and continue VFR. They don't have to stay on an IFR flight plan to be a valid OTP clearance. They sure weren't VFR over the top either because they weren't VMC in the climb.
Click to expand...

How'd that report go? Something like, "... is on top, canceling IFR"? At what point were they operating VFR-on-Top?
 
roncachamp said:
How'd that report go? Something like, "... is on top, canceling IFR"? At what point were they operating VFR-on-Top?
Click to expand...

No SOCAL approach would reclear them to maintain OTP. The cancelation point would vary depending on how close they were to Pendleton and how thick the fog was. I suppose once they could see that Pendleton's redtricted areà was usuable then they would cancel and go direct.
 
Velocity173 said:
No SOCAL approach would reclear them to maintain OTP. The cancelation point would vary depending on how close they were to Pendleton and how thick the fog was. I suppose once they could see that Pendleton's redtricted areà was usuable then they would cancel and go direct.
Click to expand...

You described it differently in your earlier post; "VFR on top is used a lot out in Cali to get above the fog layer and then cancel."
 
roncachamp said:
You described it differently in your earlier post; "VFR on top is used a lot out in Cali to get above the fog layer and then cancel."
Click to expand...

Yeah at some point they cancel. It's SOCALs job to tell them to maintain OTP, not mine. Just giving an example of OTP where the pilot doesn't retain their IFR all the way to the clearance limit.
 
Steven I'm a little thick headed and a relatively new instrument pilot to boot. I'm based in CA and frequently call the tower and ask for an IFR TO VFR on top clearance when there is an overcast. The tower works this out with approach and there is no need to file prior.

The typical clearance will be to turn left heading 290, climb to VFR on top, if not VFR by, etc, etc... Then off we go. The clearance limit will be about 15 miles away and nobody expects anything other than to cancel IFR once 1,000' over the layer.

I'm missing something in your posts and I want to understand what you mean. This is a common occurance out here. If there is a marine layer it just simply happens. Are we just debating a terminology thing? I don't want to have gaps in my knowledge that an Air Traffic Controller can expose and get me second guessing myself on an internet forum in 5 words or less. Help, please explain.
 
Last edited:
brywd said:
Steven I'm a little thick headed and a relatively new instrument pilot to boot. I'm based in CA and frequently call the tower and ask for an IFR TO VFR on top clearance when there is an overcast. The tower works this out with approach and there is no need to file prior.

The typical clearance will be to turn left heading 290, climb to VFR on top, if not VFR by, etc, etc... Then off we go. The clearance limit will be about 15 miles away and nobody expects anything other than to cancel IFR once 1,000' over the layer.

I'm missing something in your posts and I want to understand what you mean. This is a common occurance out here. If there is a marine layer it just simply happens. Are we just debating a terminology thing? I don't want to have gaps in my knowledge that an Air Traffic Controller can expose and get me second guessing myself on an internet forum in 5 words or less. Help, please explain.
Click to expand...

When you request a VFR-on-Top clearance as you describe, when your intent is to cancel IFR upon reaching VFR conditions, you're requesting something you don't intend to do; operate VFR-on-Top. You can simply request what you really want, a short range IFR clearance that permits you to climb through that layer, cancel IFR, and proceed on your merry way VFR.
 
roncachamp said:
When you request a VFR-on-Top clearance as you describe, when your intent is to cancel IFR upon reaching VFR conditions, you're requesting something you don't intend to do; operate VFR-on-Top. You can simply request what you really want, a short range IFR clearance that permits you to climb through that layer, cancel IFR, and proceed on your merry way VFR.
Click to expand...

Is that better than what he described? If so, why?

I'm not disputing what you're saying - just trying to decide if it's a procedure that I want to try.
 
Steven not trying to be argumentitive, but we are taught out here to specifically request IFR TO VFR on top. "To" is supposed to somehow clue everybody in to our intentions that all we want is a pass to get through a layer. ATC is fully aware and this is working for us all out here. Is this regional and unoffical somehow?
 
brywd said:
Steven not trying to be argumentitive, but we are taught out here to specifically request IFR TO VFR on top. "To" is supposed to somehow clue everybody in to our intentions that all we want is a pass to get through a layer. ATC is fully aware and this is working for us all out here. Is this regional and unoffical somehow?
Click to expand...

What are you taught to say out there when you actually want to operate VFR-on-Top?
 
bluesky74656 said:
Just this morning I managed to pass my IFR written. 92%.

In studying, I came across a number of questions dedicated to VFR-On-Top. So, I know that the rules are that you must be able to maintain VFR, you must stay on your filed or assigned route (you can't just flit about like you could under straight VFR), and you may request any VFR altitude from ATC.

My question is: what's the point? Under normal IFR I must stay on my filed or assigned route, I can file any IFR altitude I like and request changes as needed, but I don't have to maintain VFR. I can't think of a good reason I would ever need VFR-On-Top.
Click to expand...

VFR on Top allows you to operate without vecters or altitude changes for other IFR traffic. It also allows you some alttitude flexabilityt. Say the MEA is 7200 ft SE bound. If ATC needs you on a cardinal alt, you get niner, other wise you can elect on top at 7500.
 
brywd said:
Steven I'm a little thick headed and a relatively new instrument pilot to boot. I'm based in CA and frequently call the tower and ask for an IFR TO VFR on top clearance when there is an overcast. The tower works this out with approach and there is no need to file prior.

The typical clearance will be to turn left heading 290, climb to VFR on top, if not VFR by, etc, etc... Then off we go. The clearance limit will be about 15 miles away and nobody expects anything other than to cancel IFR once 1,000' over the layer.

I'm missing something in your posts and I want to understand what you mean. This is a common occurance out here. If there is a marine layer it just simply happens. Are we just debating a terminology thing? I don't want to have gaps in my knowledge that an Air Traffic Controller can expose and get me second guessing myself on an internet forum in 5 words or less. Help, please explain.
Click to expand...
It is not unusual for pilots to confuse VFR-on-top (aka "OTP" in ATC parlance) with "VFR over the top". If you ask what you said you asked for, ATC will understand what you really want, and give you an appropriate IFR clearance so you can get above the cloud layer, cancel IFR, and proceed VFR. Don't worry too much about the semantics in your request as long as you do what the controller says.
 
Here' an example of how this is used in So. Cal. I'm posting this one because most of us know who this guy is from his past forum fame, as well as being a former controller. Now not that I'm disputing because a professional controller answering our questions, as well as a professional pilot and full time CFII chiming in I know I'm in the wrong here. Problem is I'm not getting it yet.

Please gents, apply your explanation to this video so that I can take the understanding from what I am seeing, to the way it fits your explanations.
Thanks for your patience on this.

http://youtu.be/I2gObsf6xhQ
 
Ron Levy said:
It is not unusual for pilots to confuse VFR-on-top (aka "OTP" in ATC parlance) with "VFR over the top". If you ask what you said you asked for, ATC will understand what you really want, and give you an appropriate IFR clearance so you can get above the cloud layer, cancel IFR, and proceed VFR. Don't worry too much about the semantics in your request as long as you do what the controller says.
Click to expand...

Ron we don't even have to say where we are going really. We just tell ground that a VFR to IFR on top is requested for a departure to the East for example. They don't care where we are going really and the clearance limit is picked for us by ATC. I'm getting more confused and will probably call NorCal tomorrow so they can explain it to me.

All I know is that actually departing this way is far simpler than defending it here. LOL
 
brywd said:
Ron we don't even have to say where we are going really. We just tell ground that a VFR to IFR on top is requested for a departure to the East for example. They don't care where we are going really and the clearance limit is picked for us by ATC. I'm getting more confused and will probably call NorCal tomorrow so they can explain it to me.

All I know is that actually departing this way is far simpler than defending it here. LOL
Click to expand...

Nothing to defend. The way you describe it at your airport is just like the Flying article I posted. Doesn't matter if you cancel before your short range clearance limit or not, it's still a VFR-on-top clearance.
 
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